DCX-Demo, and wtf.... Utopia on NGEmu?

Samor · March 15th, 2006

Dunno if any of you heard of this, but there's a very nice bootdisc around that boots virtually any DC import game in a real DC just fine, 60hz and all.

A while ago I ordered this jap. DC game, Super Speed Racing, from ebay.
It's a pretty old game actually, but whatever; it didn't boot with the famous, often used DC bootdisc, called Utopia (which is a doubtful thing to use anyway, I'll explain below).

So, I started looking for alternative bootmethods a while ago, and I found and tried the DC-X Demo.
Turns out it works flawlessly, and in fact, it only works on real imports, not on backups. Being a demo version, it's totally free and legal too.
I lost the original link, but I think this is a must have for every DC fan, so I'll post a link here:
DCXDemo
Maybe NGEmu can host it.

Now, the reason I just post it now (and in site feedback & suggestions) is I spotted something in the DC section here at ngemu... the Utopia bootdisc. It's advertised here as an emulation utility.
Well, it's not. It's doubtful if it's meant for playing real DC imports, seeing as it doesn't work on one I have, and for homebrew, there are alternatives from the DC homebrew community itself, which work WAY better.
I'm saying this, because AFAIK Utopia is NOT exactly a part of either the emulation community OR dc homebrew community. Some homework on google reveals they're active in the warez community, and the Utopia disc is meant for just that.
Now, I think in this case it's strange that ngemu supports this disc. What people personally do, whatever, but I recall the harsh words on EmuRaiden and GiriGiri on NGEmu. Isn't this just the same?
I don't think ngemu should support such a disc. Even if there was a reason for before, that's totally gone by now, and there are better alternatives for homebrew and legal alternatives for actual REAL imports.

**General Plot** · March 16th, 2006

The reason it's advertised as an emulation tool, is that if a game back up isn't made self bootable, then the only way to boot it in a DC emulator is to use something like Utopia (aka: Chankast can't boot a game that isn't made self bootable).

Cid Highwind · March 16th, 2006

Kinda like what various tools can do as well? Making Utopia obsolete because it's better to have a game bootable on its own.

Btw, I never dumped any DC images of my own, maybe someone can clarify how it is possible that an iso dumped yourself becomes a nonselfboot one?

Samor · March 16th, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Plot

The reason it's advertised as an emulation tool, is that if a game back up isn't made self bootable, then the only way to boot it in a DC emulator is to use something like Utopia (aka: Chankast can't boot a game that isn't made self bootable).

it's not in the chankast section, it's in the sections for emulators for Dreamcast (meaning emulators on DC, not dc emulators on PC). It's advertised as a utility to boot DC homebrew, but there's far better ways how this can be done and that work on one cd instead of 2. It's not even meant for that anyway.

Even if it were for your reason, it'd be questionable at least. If I look how strict we're being on PS1/PS2 emulation, it makes one wonder why this doesn't happen with DC. In case it happens that there's someone who actually dumped a game from his DC, he's probably knowledgeable enough to make it self-bootable as well. As for the people who prefer to just download but not tell they did (hey, again, it's up to people what they do themselves), well, everything's self-bootable anyways.
I don't see NGEmu providing nocd patches for PC games either. It's also strange to say "dump your bios yourself" and at the same time "here, this bootdisc from a warez group helps to play the copies". We can't even mention the name of a site that is loaded with bootdiscs, patches, (selfboot) tutorials etc, because it's considered illegal here, so instead we just take their downloads and provide them here.. that's wrong on more levels, even.
Do not ask for bios, do not ask for bootdisc. It's almost the same sentence...

And I haven't even started to touch to whole problem with chankast currently not being able to work with clean dumps, meaning that from a preservation standpoint it's a pretty bad solution (no offence to the emu-authors, it's an excellent emu in itself, and it can run the mil-cd format, of course (meaning homebrew)).

Vanit · March 16th, 2006

The problem is that there will be legitimate situations when Utopia will be of use and greater convenience than decontructing your dumped games, editing them and then putting them back together. Unfortunately it caters to the large beginner spectrum of the DC scene.

Additionally I can't see how anyone can stand running burnt games on a DC. I swear that there is a diesel engine tucked in the back of my DC some times.

Samor · March 16th, 2006

Also, the originals don't have content ripped out.

**General Plot** · March 16th, 2006

Well, Utopia in itself isn't copyrighted, whereas, a BIOS image is. That's where the line is.

Also, I think the reason DC stuff is a little more lenient here, is because PS1/PS2 discs can be read by any standard PC CD/DVD drive, whereas original DC discs can't. By hosting the Utopia boot disc, it's not like NGEmu is saying, here's a disc to help you with illegal things. However, giving away a BIOS, is in itself already an illegal act.

Cid Highwind · March 16th, 2006

It's not about the disc being illegal or not, as Samor has been trying to tell, it's just that there are better tools for booting homebrew and imports, and that Utopia is obsolete. These selfboot tools aren't too hard to use I think. I quote:

Quote:

DSSBS Final v1

DSSBS is a very simple and easy to use tool that creates a selfbooting image. It is compatible with pretty much everything (Except Katana) and can create a variaty of different formats.

Things get closed as soon as someone mentions anything about removing the Echelon trainer, or mentioning they downloaded the file. Ah well, I don't care much about NGEmu providing the Utopia bootdisc or not, it would just make more sense if they would take it off concerning its policy.

Quote:

Also, I think the reason DC stuff is a little more lenient here, is because PS1/PS2 discs can be read by any standard PC CD/DVD drive, whereas original DC discs can't. By hosting the Utopia boot disc, it's not like NGEmu is saying, here's a disc to help you with illegal things.

Yeah while I personally don't care much about people downloading their games as a backup as long as they have the original as well, simply for convenience, how many people actually do this and own the game?

NGEmu is saying "heck we don't care what people do with this bootloader, while we know it's been made by a warez group, even though we are perfectly aware that there are better alternatives for all the legit things you can do with it"

Samor · March 16th, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Plot

Well, Utopia in itself isn't copyrighted, whereas, a BIOS image is. That's where the line is.

Also, I think the reason DC stuff is a little more lenient here, is because PS1/PS2 discs can be read by any standard PC CD/DVD drive, whereas original DC discs can't. By hosting the Utopia boot disc, it's not like NGEmu is saying, here's a disc to help you with illegal things.

Maybe not intentional or literary.

But NGemu says it doesn't support piracy, and has an anti-warez policy; only here it's suddenly different.
If there's a policy, there's nothing wrong with trying to be a little consistent. I know that's hard enough as it is, but there's nothing wrong with trying

**hushypushy** · March 16th, 2006

i think the fact is that NGemu isn't an anti-piracy internet crusader team, if you catch my drift. like Plot said, Utopia isn't copyrighted, the BIOS is. sure, Utopia has obvious illegal uses. but the file itself isnt illegal, and it has legal uses.

think of it like this. ePSXe isnt illegal to distribute, and it has legal uses. however, it can (and definitely is) used for illegal things. so should emuforums stop supporting ePSXe because it can be used for illegal things?

in my opinion, that's how it is for Utopia. boot discs have legit purposes, so do emulators. and both of them have illegal purposes as well.

Cid Highwind · March 16th, 2006

The difference is that the Utopia bootdisc has been made with piracy in mind, and emulators were not.

Ah well, I'm out, if anyone would like to have a import booting disc that does a way better job than Utopia just ask Samor. I've said all I could and already gave my arguements for providing this one over utopia.

Samor · March 16th, 2006

Just found this information, which makes it VERY questionable if this Utopia bootdisk is even legal, as you people claim:

http://www.emutalk.net/archive/index.php/t-20638.html

That is aside from the fact that it's already strange to provide a warez-related download. You can claim it's just one post, and a rumour but that was enough to stop girigiri (nothing is known about the actual copyrights)... why not this?

More info on
http://www.boob.co.uk/docs/hex.htm

**General Plot** · March 16th, 2006

The equvalent of that thread is to say, for example, that if an emulator author were to ever use say, a pirated copy of Visual Studio (and I'm not saying this has ever happened, just being hypthetical), the assumption would be any software he builds on it is illegal, because the software he built it on is illegal? I don't know if that's ever happened, but I'm sure it's quite possible. Strictly in my own opinion (I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth) I don't think that just because an SDK is used without authorization, it makes everything developed on it illegal.

Afterall, game copying is illegal, yet we give advice on how to rip ISO's, etc... Circumventing any sort of copy protection is now considered illegal, yet the only way to use a DC emulator is to copy an original disc, since the original can't be used.

Cid Highwind · March 16th, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Plot

The equvalent of that thread is to say, for example, that if an emulator author were to ever use say, a pirated copy of Visual Studio (and I'm not saying this has ever happened, just being hypthetical), the assumption would be any software he builds on it is illegal, because the software he built it on is illegal? I don't know if that's ever happened, but I'm sure it's quite possible. Strictly in my own opinion (I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth) I don't think that just because an SDK is used without authorization, it makes everything developed on it illegal.

That's the same reason why emulators for Xbox aren't supported here

Samor · March 16th, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Plot

The equvalent of that thread is to say, for example, that if an emulator author were to ever use say, a pirated copy of Visual Studio (and I'm not saying this has ever happened, just being hypthetical), the assumption would be any software he builds on it is illegal, because the software he built it on is illegal? I don't know if that's ever happened, but I'm sure it's quite possible. Strictly in my own opinion (I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth) I don't think that just because an SDK is used without authorization, it makes everything developed on it illegal.

Afterall, game copying is illegal, yet we give advice on how to rip ISO's, etc... Circumventing any sort of copy protection is now considered illegal, yet the only way to use a DC emulator is to copy an original disc, since the original can't be used.

it seems now you're trying real hard to justify reasons why ngemu is allowed to provide illegal software.
We're not talking about visual studio. the katana devkit is provided to people who develop commercial software for the dreamcast. It's like people making bootdiscs on Yaroze and releasing it to the public - not quite allowed.
Why is NGemu defending this piece of warez that much anyway?

**Chrono Archangel** · March 16th, 2006

removed.

end of discussion

Keith · March 17th, 2006

I can see both sides of the story and nice to see something done about it. I don't have anything to add to that discussion but wanted to comment on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Plot

Afterall, game copying is illegal, yet we give advice on how to rip ISO's, etc... Circumventing any sort of copy protection is now considered illegal, yet the only way to use a DC emulator is to copy an original disc, since the original can't be used.

Thats the one thing I never really liked about emulation. It's fun to play the classics and to see the advancements in coding but its a shame that the large majority of the reasons people use emulators is strictly for gaming. The reason its a shame is that most emulators need to use illegal means in order to play retail games. There is the whole homebrew aspect of emulation but compared to the main reason people use emulators its a small percentage.

So in the end there is always going to be a very fine line between whats legal and whats illegal to discuss. People give support on how to make so and so game run on Chankast fully knowing the game is not legit .. which you could replace Chankast with a ton of different emulators and its the same story. Its hard to provide a support site that deals with helping people run illegal games on legit emulators and at the same time disallow any illegal stuff. A little "Don't ask, don't tell" policy I suppose.

Samor · March 17th, 2006

Oh yes, I guess it works that way, but I think ngemu should try and be a little consistent about it. This mostly already happens, fortunately, and I know it can be hard

Appropriate action was taken in this case, and I think that's good.

I personally really like it when there's options to use original media on an emulator. This is the case for ps1 emulators (there's still the bios issue, though) and there's an official MSX emulator that supports an USB cartridge reader. That's ideal. Not only is the included bios totally legal, but you can use the emulator for original media.

As old as the MSX is, it's technically illegal to provide bios roms with the emulators. It's generally tolerated though, even by the copyright holders. Many MSX emulators simply come with the bios included. Some MSX emulator authors took a different approach though, and release their emulator by default with a freeware MSX bios. This would also be ideal for PS1/2 and DC emulation...do such bios files exist for these platforms? I recall one ps1 emu had its own implementation....

Oh, and I know I'm going past the original topic's scope now...I hope that's ok, otherwise I can start a new one

**General Plot** · March 17th, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith

So in the end there is always going to be a very fine line between whats legal and whats illegal to discuss. People give support on how to make so and so game run on Chankast fully knowing the game is not legit .. which you could replace Chankast with a ton of different emulators and its the same story. Its hard to provide a support site that deals with helping people run illegal games on legit emulators and at the same time disallow any illegal stuff. A little "Don't ask, don't tell"

March 15th, 2006	#1 (permalink)
Samor racing gamer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NL Posts: 5,355	DCX-Demo, and wtf.... Utopia on NGEmu? Dunno if any of you heard of this, but there's a very nice bootdisc around that boots virtually any DC import game in a real DC just fine, 60hz and all. A while ago I ordered this jap. DC game, Super Speed Racing, from ebay. It's a pretty old game actually, but whatever; it didn't boot with the famous, often used DC bootdisc, called Utopia (which is a doubtful thing to use anyway, I'll explain below). So, I started looking for alternative bootmethods a while ago, and I found and tried the DC-X Demo. Turns out it works flawlessly, and in fact, it only works on real imports, not on backups. Being a demo version, it's totally free and legal too. I lost the original link, but I think this is a must have for every DC fan, so I'll post a link here: DCXDemo Maybe NGEmu can host it. Now, the reason I just post it now (and in site feedback & suggestions) is I spotted something in the DC section here at ngemu... the Utopia bootdisc. It's advertised here as an emulation utility. Well, it's not. It's doubtful if it's meant for playing real DC imports, seeing as it doesn't work on one I have, and for homebrew, there are alternatives from the DC homebrew community itself, which work WAY better. I'm saying this, because AFAIK Utopia is NOT exactly a part of either the emulation community OR dc homebrew community. Some homework on google reveals they're active in the warez community, and the Utopia disc is meant for just that. Now, I think in this case it's strange that ngemu supports this disc. What people personally do, whatever, but I recall the harsh words on EmuRaiden and GiriGiri on NGEmu. Isn't this just the same? I don't think ngemu should support such a disc. Even if there was a reason for before, that's totally gone by now, and there are better alternatives for homebrew and legal alternatives for actual REAL imports. __________________ Steam Community :: ID :: samor YouTube Channel (updated 28-9-2008)

March 16th, 2006	#2 (permalink)
General Plot Britchie Crazy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 4,800	The reason it's advertised as an emulation tool, is that if a game back up isn't made self bootable, then the only way to boot it in a DC emulator is to use something like Utopia (aka: Chankast can't boot a game that isn't made self bootable). __________________ Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 \| 2 GB PC6400 DDR2 RAM \| GeForce 7900 GTX 2.5 TB Hard Drive Space \| Windows XP Pro SP2 Check out my site: http://generalplot.atspace.com Official betatester of PCSX2 and Co-owner of General Emulation

March 16th, 2006	#3 (permalink)
Cid Highwind Ramma Gay Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Somwhere out in space? The Land of the Free? Heaven or Hell? Posts: 11,675	Kinda like what various tools can do as well? Making Utopia obsolete because it's better to have a game bootable on its own. Btw, I never dumped any DC images of my own, maybe someone can clarify how it is possible that an iso dumped yourself becomes a nonselfboot one? __________________ PC Specs: CPU: Intel E4400 @ 2.66GHz GPU: ATi HD4870 / 512MB / Core: 775 / Mem: 1025 Mobo: Gigabyte EP35-DS3 (rev 2.1) SPU: Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music RAM: 2GB Corsair XMS2 DDR800 @ 4-4-4-12 ~ 800MHz HDD: 320GB Western Digital 16MB Caviar SE PSU: Hiper Type-R 580W Geometry Wars: 198.400 Lumines: 523.879 Rip: Cid's Bleemcast 28-08-2007 X360/Wii/PS3 belong to the current generation, update your mindset FFS

March 16th, 2006	#5 (permalink)
Vanit Heretic Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Australia! Posts: 2,755	The problem is that there will be legitimate situations when Utopia will be of use and greater convenience than decontructing your dumped games, editing them and then putting them back together. Unfortunately it caters to the large beginner spectrum of the DC scene. Additionally I can't see how anyone can stand running burnt games on a DC. I swear that there is a diesel engine tucked in the back of my DC some times. __________________ Click here to download my Sin and Punishment English translation.

March 16th, 2006	#6 (permalink)
Samor racing gamer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NL Posts: 5,355	Also, the originals don't have content ripped out. __________________ Steam Community :: ID :: samor YouTube Channel (updated 28-9-2008)

March 16th, 2006	#7 (permalink)
General Plot Britchie Crazy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 4,800	Well, Utopia in itself isn't copyrighted, whereas, a BIOS image is. That's where the line is. Also, I think the reason DC stuff is a little more lenient here, is because PS1/PS2 discs can be read by any standard PC CD/DVD drive, whereas original DC discs can't. By hosting the Utopia boot disc, it's not like NGEmu is saying, here's a disc to help you with illegal things. However, giving away a BIOS, is in itself already an illegal act. __________________ Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 \| 2 GB PC6400 DDR2 RAM \| GeForce 7900 GTX 2.5 TB Hard Drive Space \| Windows XP Pro SP2 Check out my site: http://generalplot.atspace.com Official betatester of PCSX2 and Co-owner of General Emulation

March 16th, 2006	#10 (permalink)
hushypushy the only one you've ever SEEN Join Date: May 2003 Location: San Francisco Posts: 21,837	i think the fact is that NGemu isn't an anti-piracy internet crusader team, if you catch my drift. like Plot said, Utopia isn't copyrighted, the BIOS is. sure, Utopia has obvious illegal uses. but the file itself isnt illegal, and it has legal uses. think of it like this. ePSXe isnt illegal to distribute, and it has legal uses. however, it can (and definitely is) used for illegal things. so should emuforums stop supporting ePSXe because it can be used for illegal things? in my opinion, that's how it is for Utopia. boot discs have legit purposes, so do emulators. and both of them have illegal purposes as well.

March 16th, 2006	#11 (permalink)
Cid Highwind Ramma Gay Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Somwhere out in space? The Land of the Free? Heaven or Hell? Posts: 11,675	The difference is that the Utopia bootdisc has been made with piracy in mind, and emulators were not. Ah well, I'm out, if anyone would like to have a import booting disc that does a way better job than Utopia just ask Samor. I've said all I could and already gave my arguements for providing this one over utopia. __________________ PC Specs: CPU: Intel E4400 @ 2.66GHz GPU: ATi HD4870 / 512MB / Core: 775 / Mem: 1025 Mobo: Gigabyte EP35-DS3 (rev 2.1) SPU: Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music RAM: 2GB Corsair XMS2 DDR800 @ 4-4-4-12 ~ 800MHz HDD: 320GB Western Digital 16MB Caviar SE PSU: Hiper Type-R 580W Geometry Wars: 198.400 Lumines: 523.879 Rip: Cid's Bleemcast 28-08-2007 X360/Wii/PS3 belong to the current generation, update your mindset FFS

March 16th, 2006	#12 (permalink)
Samor racing gamer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NL Posts: 5,355	Just found this information, which makes it VERY questionable if this Utopia bootdisk is even legal, as you people claim: http://www.emutalk.net/archive/index.php/t-20638.html That is aside from the fact that it's already strange to provide a warez-related download. You can claim it's just one post, and a rumour but that was enough to stop girigiri (nothing is known about the actual copyrights)... why not this? More info on http://www.boob.co.uk/docs/hex.htm __________________ Steam Community :: ID :: samor YouTube Channel (updated 28-9-2008)

March 16th, 2006	#13 (permalink)
General Plot Britchie Crazy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Plymouth, UK Posts: 4,800	The equvalent of that thread is to say, for example, that if an emulator author were to ever use say, a pirated copy of Visual Studio (and I'm not saying this has ever happened, just being hypthetical), the assumption would be any software he builds on it is illegal, because the software he built it on is illegal? I don't know if that's ever happened, but I'm sure it's quite possible. Strictly in my own opinion (I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth) I don't think that just because an SDK is used without authorization, it makes everything developed on it illegal. Afterall, game copying is illegal, yet we give advice on how to rip ISO's, etc... Circumventing any sort of copy protection is now considered illegal, yet the only way to use a DC emulator is to copy an original disc, since the original can't be used. __________________ Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 \| 2 GB PC6400 DDR2 RAM \| GeForce 7900 GTX 2.5 TB Hard Drive Space \| Windows XP Pro SP2 Check out my site: http://generalplot.atspace.com Official betatester of PCSX2 and Co-owner of General Emulation

March 16th, 2006	#16 (permalink)
Chrono Archangel Administrator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 7,217	removed. end of discussion __________________ When Pigs Fly: The Death of Oink, the Birth of Dissent, and a Brief History of Record Industry Suicide.

March 17th, 2006	#18 (permalink)
Samor racing gamer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NL Posts: 5,355	Oh yes, I guess it works that way, but I think ngemu should try and be a little consistent about it. This mostly already happens, fortunately, and I know it can be hard Appropriate action was taken in this case, and I think that's good. I personally really like it when there's options to use original media on an emulator. This is the case for ps1 emulators (there's still the bios issue, though) and there's an official MSX emulator that supports an USB cartridge reader. That's ideal. Not only is the included bios totally legal, but you can use the emulator for original media. As old as the MSX is, it's technically illegal to provide bios roms with the emulators. It's generally tolerated though, even by the copyright holders. Many MSX emulators simply come with the bios included. Some MSX emulator authors took a different approach though, and release their emulator by default with a freeware MSX bios. This would also be ideal for PS1/2 and DC emulation...do such bios files exist for these platforms? I recall one ps1 emu had its own implementation.... Oh, and I know I'm going past the original topic's scope now...I hope that's ok, otherwise I can start a new one __________________ Steam Community :: ID :: samor YouTube Channel (updated 28-9-2008) Last edited by Samor; March 17th, 2006 at 13:08.