Windows Kernel Emulation

AnyJoe · August 4th, 2003

I was wondering if it would be possible to produce a "copy" of the windows kernel? That is to say a program that could load windows executables, drivers and other modules.

I assume this is fairly simple load the module into memory, do some gubbins with import/export tables, start a new thread and jump to the program entry point.

I guess what I really want to know is... is this all that the windows kernel does?

I think it is. I think every thing else is handled in some driver or other dll. But I only think this. Am I right?

Before you ask... I'm interested in doing this for a couple of reasons but the main one is to produce an open source alternative to windows that can load and run windows executables. I know WINE sort of does this and all but thats not what I'm trying to do here.

N1ghtw0lf · August 4th, 2003

wouldn't microsoft be a bit...ya know...PO'ed...they are losing money if you were to distribute an open source version...though this brings back memories of the movie antitrust and the open source people won...but anyways...microsoft developed the kernal so you'd actually ahve to ask them to be able to do that...right?

AnyJoe · August 4th, 2003

I dont think so.

My understanding of the legalities of this is that it would be fine.

Its all about binary compatibility. I cannot copy their code since this would be a breach of copyright. But if I produce something that does exactly the same as their code then I think everything is ok. I'll need to check up on this however.

Mad · August 4th, 2003

it would be a whole new OS or based on linux??

AnyJoe · August 4th, 2003

A whole new OS coded from scratch. Although Linux will probably be used as examples of how to do things.

scottlc · August 4th, 2003

Writing an OS from scratch is a massive undertaking.

**Kane** · August 4th, 2003

The Kernel is not open source. It is an integral part of windows, so MS would be loathe to let it go.
Should you create an OS using said code, you would be very vulnerable to attack from MS.

AnyJoe · August 4th, 2003

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Kane

The Kernel is not open source. It is an integral part of windows, so MS would be loathe to let it go.
Should you create an OS using said code, you would be very vulnerable to attack from MS.

The idea is not to use MS code but to reimplement the kernel. I belive binary compatibility is allowed under copyright law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott_uk5

Writing an OS from scratch is a massive undertaking.

I would like to know how much of an undertaking. Is it out of the scope of the open source community?

I think the basic requirement to be able to run windows programs would be re-implementations of kernel32.dll and ntdll.dll. I believe these two files mainly drive device drivers to do the majority of the work.

**Kane** · August 4th, 2003

Quote:

The idea is not to use MS code but to reimplement the kernel. I belive binary compatibility is allowed under copyright law.

Do you know why WineX costs? Because they have to pay lisencing fees.

Quote:

I would like to know how much of an undertaking. Is it out of the scope of the open source community?

It's a massive undertaking. It's not like simply writing a small C++ app. It's not even like writing a a big app like Quake 3.
There is a reason MS charges over a hundred quid for it.

AnyJoe · August 4th, 2003

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Kane

Do you know why WineX costs? Because they have to pay lisencing fees.

I dont think the fees go to microsoft they go to TransGaming Technologies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Kane

There is a reason MS charges over a hundred quid for it.

Linux was a massive undertaking but it was worth it. NTDLL + KERNEL32 = about 1MB. Thats not all that huge an amount of code. I think the vast majority of code is stored in drivers which could be loaded by the new OS.

scottlc · August 4th, 2003

Linux has taken many years to develop. Just out of interest, what programming skills do you have. C++ and ASM is a definate must.

AnyJoe · August 4th, 2003

I have about 10 years writing code in c++. I tend to concider my ASM as fairly good but its main used for bebugging. I can normally translate ASM back into c. I was rather hoping that I wouldnt be alone in this though.

**Demigod** · August 4th, 2003

There's over 2 million lines of code under Windows's hood, and at least 10,000 of them for the kernel. Good luck trying to emulate it.

scottlc · August 4th, 2003

Well it seems to be a waste of time building an open source Windows clone.

**Kane** · August 4th, 2003

Quote:

I dont think the fees go to microsoft they go to TransGaming Technologies.

They still have to pay license fees, even if the cashgoes to transgaming at first.

RamsusX · August 4th, 2003

AnyJoe: An open source clone of Windows NT is already in development (has been for a few years now). For the uninformed, it's called ReactOS. Consider joining their effort. Keep in mind that reimplementing the Windows NT kernel is no easy task, and doesn't involve just rewriting a few DLLs. That's why ReactOS only works with a few console applications and has some basic GDI functionality, despite having been in development for so long.

Lord Kane: Transgaming doesn't have to pay any licensing fees to Microsoft. They don't use any of Microsoft's code. Reverse engineering and alternative implementations of software interfaces (even binary-compatible ones) are completely legal and require the author(s) to pay no royalties to anyone. If you want, I can write a long essay citing a variety of sources that explains why this is so.

**Kane** · August 4th, 2003

I was under the impression that WineX use licensed code to run (DirecX stuff)

RamsusX · August 4th, 2003

No, they created their own DirectX implementation (which is really more of a DirectX wrapper around OpenGL) that works better than the incomplete implementation the official WINE project already had. They also fixed up the code so certain often-used installers would work with WINE. They claimed they would release their code back to the WINE project after a while, but after failing to do so, the WINE Project switched to the LGPL license.

AnyJoe · August 5th, 2003

Quote:

Originally Posted by RamsusX

AnyJoe: An open source clone of Windows NT is already in development (has been for a few years now). For the uninformed, it's called ReactOS. Consider joining their effort. Keep in mind that reimplementing the Windows NT kernel is no easy task, and doesn't involve just rewriting a few DLLs. That's why ReactOS only works with a few console applications and has some basic GDI functionality, despite having been in development for so long.

Cheers RamsusX, thats exactly what I've been looking for.

Noxious Ninja · August 5th, 2003

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Kane

I was under the impression that WineX use licensed code to run (DirecX stuff)

IIRC, it is for the copy protection technologies (such as SafeDisc), so they wouldn't be sued under the DMCA.

August 4th, 2003	#1 (permalink)
AnyJoe Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16	Windows Kernel Emulation I was wondering if it would be possible to produce a "copy" of the windows kernel? That is to say a program that could load windows executables, drivers and other modules. I assume this is fairly simple load the module into memory, do some gubbins with import/export tables, start a new thread and jump to the program entry point. I guess what I really want to know is... is this all that the windows kernel does? I think it is. I think every thing else is handled in some driver or other dll. But I only think this. Am I right? Before you ask... I'm interested in doing this for a couple of reasons but the main one is to produce an open source alternative to windows that can load and run windows executables. I know WINE sort of does this and all but thats not what I'm trying to do here.

August 4th, 2003	#2 (permalink)
N1ghtw0lf Crasher of Castles Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 6,836	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation wouldn't microsoft be a bit...ya know...PO'ed...they are losing money if you were to distribute an open source version...though this brings back memories of the movie antitrust and the open source people won...but anyways...microsoft developed the kernal so you'd actually ahve to ask them to be able to do that...right? __________________

August 4th, 2003	#4 (permalink)
Mad AKA snkmad Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Brazil, Fortaleza-Ceará Posts: 2,954	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation it would be a whole new OS or based on linux?? __________________ [WinXP SP3] [Gigabyte GA-M61PM-S2] [Athlon64 X2 3800+ @2.00Ghz] [XFX Geforce 8600GT XxX 256MB DDR3] [17" SyncMaster 753v] [Samsung SATA II HD250HJ 250GB] [Kingston 2x1GB DDR2 6400@800MHz CL6] [Samsung CDDVDW SH-S203B] [NVIDIA nForce Networking] [Realtek HD Audio ALC883] Baldurs Gate Dumps

August 4th, 2003	#6 (permalink)
scottlc Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: St Andrews, Scotland Posts: 1,575	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation Writing an OS from scratch is a massive undertaking. __________________ OS: Arch Linux w/ Kernel 2.6.23.8 + GNOME 2.20.1 - CPU: Intel Pentium M 1.5GHz - Memory: 1280MB DDR PC2700 - Browser: Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.10

August 4th, 2003	#7 (permalink)
Kane 邪魔ゎ指せない Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Gosport, England Posts: 26,255	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation The Kernel is not open source. It is an integral part of windows, so MS would be loathe to let it go. Should you create an OS using said code, you would be very vulnerable to attack from MS. __________________ >Site Live< Pop over to my site for help with setting up PSX emulators. Help for the Final Fantasies and other RPGs avalaible Celes: (Desktop) Athlon 64 X2 4200+, 2Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, MSI K8N Platinum, GeForce 8800 GTS 320Mb, 500Gb RAID HDD, Vista Business Erika: (MCPC) Athlon XP 2400+, 1Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, geForce 6800 256Mb, 80Gb Hdd, XP 2005 MCE Kimiko: (Desktop 2) Athlon 64 3000+, 512Mb 400MHz DDR Ram, Asus K8V, geForce 6800 128Mb

August 4th, 2003	#3 (permalink)
AnyJoe Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16	I dont think so. My understanding of the legalities of this is that it would be fine. Its all about binary compatibility. I cannot copy their code since this would be a breach of copyright. But if I produce something that does exactly the same as their code then I think everything is ok. I'll need to check up on this however.

August 4th, 2003	#5 (permalink)
AnyJoe Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16	A whole new OS coded from scratch. Although Linux will probably be used as examples of how to do things.

August 4th, 2003	#11 (permalink)
scottlc Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: St Andrews, Scotland Posts: 1,575	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation Linux has taken many years to develop. Just out of interest, what programming skills do you have. C++ and ASM is a definate must. __________________ OS: Arch Linux w/ Kernel 2.6.23.8 + GNOME 2.20.1 - CPU: Intel Pentium M 1.5GHz - Memory: 1280MB DDR PC2700 - Browser: Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.10

August 4th, 2003	#12 (permalink)
AnyJoe Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16	I have about 10 years writing code in c++. I tend to concider my ASM as fairly good but its main used for bebugging. I can normally translate ASM back into c. I was rather hoping that I wouldnt be alone in this though.

August 4th, 2003	#13 (permalink)
Demigod これはバタスです Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,811	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation There's over 2 million lines of code under Windows's hood, and at least 10,000 of them for the kernel. Good luck trying to emulate it. __________________ CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 @ 2.66 Ghz (Yorkfield) Mobo: Intel DX48BT2 Memory: 2048 MB PC10600 DDR3 Videocard: PNY Geforce 9800 GX2 PCIe w/ 1024 MB GDDR3 Soundcard: On-board SigmaTel High Definition Audio Hard drive: 300 MB Maxtor & 1 TB Hitachi Optical drive: LG GGW-H20L (2x BD-R DL) OS: Microsoft Windows Vista (32-bit)

August 4th, 2003	#14 (permalink)
scottlc Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: St Andrews, Scotland Posts: 1,575	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation Well it seems to be a waste of time building an open source Windows clone. __________________ OS: Arch Linux w/ Kernel 2.6.23.8 + GNOME 2.20.1 - CPU: Intel Pentium M 1.5GHz - Memory: 1280MB DDR PC2700 - Browser: Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.10

August 4th, 2003	#16 (permalink)
RamsusX Ramsus K Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 461	AnyJoe: An open source clone of Windows NT is already in development (has been for a few years now). For the uninformed, it's called ReactOS. Consider joining their effort. Keep in mind that reimplementing the Windows NT kernel is no easy task, and doesn't involve just rewriting a few DLLs. That's why ReactOS only works with a few console applications and has some basic GDI functionality, despite having been in development for so long. Lord Kane: Transgaming doesn't have to pay any licensing fees to Microsoft. They don't use any of Microsoft's code. Reverse engineering and alternative implementations of software interfaces (even binary-compatible ones) are completely legal and require the author(s) to pay no royalties to anyone. If you want, I can write a long essay citing a variety of sources that explains why this is so.

August 4th, 2003	#17 (permalink)
Kane 邪魔ゎ指せない Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Gosport, England Posts: 26,255	Re: Windows Kernel Emulation I was under the impression that WineX use licensed code to run (DirecX stuff) __________________ >Site Live< Pop over to my site for help with setting up PSX emulators. Help for the Final Fantasies and other RPGs avalaible Celes: (Desktop) Athlon 64 X2 4200+, 2Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, MSI K8N Platinum, GeForce 8800 GTS 320Mb, 500Gb RAID HDD, Vista Business Erika: (MCPC) Athlon XP 2400+, 1Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, geForce 6800 256Mb, 80Gb Hdd, XP 2005 MCE Kimiko: (Desktop 2) Athlon 64 3000+, 512Mb 400MHz DDR Ram, Asus K8V, geForce 6800 128Mb

August 4th, 2003	#18 (permalink)
RamsusX Ramsus K Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 461	No, they created their own DirectX implementation (which is really more of a DirectX wrapper around OpenGL) that works better than the incomplete implementation the official WINE project already had. They also fixed up the code so certain often-used installers would work with WINE. They claimed they would release their code back to the WINE project after a while, but after failing to do so, the WINE Project switched to the LGPL license.

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