Whats the best language to learn for a beginer?

[Proto]

Thats' why I'm coupling it with an easy programming language like python or basic in order to introduce as few elements as possible in each step.

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[Mad]

I had problems trying to learn how to code alone.
1st i tried c++, then i moved to @ruantec C# classes.
It was still confusing.

Now i know why. What i was learning was language synthax, and not programming logic.
At Uni now i'm studying a specific subject, programming logic.
We use some sort of "portuguese pascal" just to understand how things should work, then we actually see how they work in Java.

I'm really motived now, as i can actually understand what i'm studying, instead of only copy & paste code.

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[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by Mad

I had problems trying to learn how to code alone.
1st i tried c++, then i moved to @ruantec C# classes.
It was still confusing.

Now i know why. What i was learning was language synthax, and not programming logic.
At Uni now i'm studying a specific subject, programming logic.
We use some sort of "portuguese pascal" just to understand how things should work, then we actually see how they work in Java.

I'm really motived now, as i can actually understand what i'm studying, instead of only copy & paste code.

Nice!! i´ll take that in consideration

well one of the keys to learn is actually to have someone that helps you when you´re in need.. sadly i´ve been unable to spend more time on my classes but still am thinking to bring them back again.

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[fried_egg]

just pop open visual studio and then start drag and drop programming .

[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by fried_egg

just pop open visual studio and then start drag and drop programming .

hehehehe that was a good one

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[Zack]

I took a weird route.

I started with lua (scripting language) then moved on to C, now programming in C++.

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[Mad]

@ruantec when/if you have some free time again, i could help you redesign your classes, to be more noob friendly.
I can translate some of my class materials, to fit with your C# knowledge.
That way i would also learn C# myself.

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[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by Mad

@ruantec when/if you have some free time again, i could help you redesign your classes, to be more noob friendly.
I can translate some of my class materials, to fit with your C# knowledge.
That way i would also learn C# myself.

That sounds like a great idea and i definitelly have to put more love in it... also i was thinking not just to start from the basics to advanced stuff but also provide tutorials how to write a "X" project.

in the last time i´ve been working on a special tutorial which will help people that have learned enough stuff in the course to learn how to write @ES from 0. the tutorial will cover the whole development from coding, design and maybe some of the Photoshop basics in order to create GUI´s for there applications... other than that i was thinking to teach how to create custom controls and so gain almost the full control of what they are doing... and who knows maybe i could help someone to create an app like this one :

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[cottonvibes]

so i've been using xna and c# to code a game, and the more i code in c# the more i dislike it compared to c++.

it has so much annoyances and is so limited.
it doesn't trust the programmer making you do a ton of explicit casting and conversions.

you have to explicitly convert integers to boolean expressions for conditionals like:
int a = 1; if (a) {}
is illegal, instead you need to do:
int a = 1; if (a!=0) {}
even this is illegal:
int a = 1; if (!!a) {}

you also have to cast enum's to primitive types which is annoying!

enum cSharpIsLame {
    NO = 0,
    YES
}
....
someInt = (int)cSharpIsLame.YES;

and of course there's no macros like i've mentioned in earlier discussions.


but the biggest annoyance i've encountered is no local static variables in member functions! wtf! it makes code so ugly.

you can't do

public void foo() { 
    static int x = 0;
}

that's really annoying since you end up having to declare these private variables OUTSIDE the function, which is ugly IMO.
IIRC even java lets you declare static vars within methods, and AFAIK even vb.net does!


another annoyance is that you have to specify array bounds with new.

you can't do this:
someClass myClasses[10];
for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) myClasses[i] = new someClass();

you instead have to do this:
someClass[] myClasses;
myClasses = new someClass[10];
for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) myClasses[i] = new someClass();

thats very annoying when you want to do quick arrays.


there were also a more annoyances but they've slipped my mind ATM ><
there are a few things the c# does nicer than c++ though, so its not all-bad (garbage collection is kindof nice, and the use of strings is nicer, and its API/framework is easy), but the more i code in c# the more annoying things i find.

its sad too because i was under the impression it was more versatile than this.

but i guess i still recommend it to beginners if they want to start out with something more advanced than basic/vb.

most of the annoyances i've encountered you have to be fluent and used to c++ to find annoying.
if you've never used c++(and other similar languages) then you wont' notice alot of c#'s limitations/annoyances.

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[nonoitall]

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

you can't do this:
someClass myClasses[10];
for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) myClasses[i] = new someClass();

you instead have to do this:
someClass[] myClasses;
myClasses = new someClass[10];
for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) myClasses[i] = new someClass();

thats very annoying when you want to do quick arrays.

Well, technically you have one more line than you need there; you can do this:

someClass[] myClasses = new someClass[10];

Or, if by "quick" you were talking about the quicker allocation of stack arrays vs. heap arrays, you can do that too (albeit with messy syntax, and IIRC it only works on arrays of value types, though I'd think you could work around that by having a container struct for your class references):

unsafe {
  int* myInts = stackalloc int[10];
}

Though C#'s memory management means that using "new" doesn't come with quite as big of a performance penalty as it did by default in C++, so this technique has fewer benefits/applications than it would in a manually managed setting.

Can't come up with a defense for the other irritations, though I will say such strict type safety can prevent some typos and other mistakes from becoming bugs, IE:

if(myInt = 25)

instead of:

if(myInt == 25)

The former is valid C++, while it would raise a compile-time error in C#, since integers cannot be implicitly converted to booleans.

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Last edited by nonoitall; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:05..

[@ruantec]

@ cottonvibes:

While i understand your point of view and hope you don´t misunderstand me i think you haven´t reached yet a good level at C# coding to understand why things are done like that and what other ways you have to accomplish that in a different way.. while some of the points there are true there are many ways to do stuff in different approach.. complaining about a language just because some stuff are different than C++ doesn´t make sense.. remember C# is C# and C++ is C++ if they were sharing the same style i bet there weren´t 2 different languages but instead 1.

it is true that some stuff in C# could be better but lets be honest C++ syntax is the most annoying language in many cases not to mention the overrated syntax. the real beauty of C# comes to light in other areas and not on simple stuff like you showed. now talking about annoying stuff isn´t C++ the most annoying language when it comes to GUI design?

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

so i've been using xna and c# to code a game, and the more i code in c# the more i dislike it compared to c++.

it has so much annoyances and is so limited.
it doesn't trust the programmer making you do a ton of explicit casting and conversions.

you have to explicitly convert integers to boolean expressions for conditionals like:
int a = 1; if (a) {}
is illegal, instead you need to do:
int a = 1; if (a!=0) {}
even this is illegal:
int a = 1; if (!!a) {}

you also have to cast enum's to primitive types which is annoying!

enum cSharpIsLame {
    NO = 0,
    YES
}
....
someInt = (int)cSharpIsLame.YES;

and of course there's no macros like i've mentioned in earlier discussions.


but the biggest annoyance i've encountered is no local static variables in member functions! wtf! it makes code so ugly.

you can't do

public void foo() { 
    static int x = 0;
}

the reason for that is because you could get the text of the enum to compare or the value in it if you wish. so by using cast you can specify what do you want to get.. i find casting a bit annoying too but i doubt its as annoying as you´re claiming. also yo don´t compare int to an enum in C# that way but instead you set enum values in your code to compare at a later time. anyways there are other methods and even static classes that makes such tasks a beauty.. i think you´re forgetting that you´re dealing with C# and not C++ and things are done in a different way.. the language is not what makes the code looks ugly or limiting you but your own coding style actually as its totally wrong(sorry to say that)

you can't do this:
someClass myClasses[10];
for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) myClasses[i] = new someClass();

you instead have to do this:
someClass[] myClasses;
myClasses = new someClass[10];
for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) myClasses[i] = new someClass();

first of all you shouldn´t write "someClass[] myClasses;" and then instanciate it as its pretty ugly and second you don´t need arrays of classes in C# at all as it just limits you in many cases when you want dynamic stuff:

  someClass[] myClasses;
  myClasses = new someClass[10];

but instead this:

  someClass[] myClasses = new someClass[10];
  foreach(someClass class in myClasses) class = new someClass();

and if you want another approach(in my opinion better) you do this:

  List<someClass> myClasses = new List<someClass>();
  for (int i = 0; i < 10; i++) myClasses.Add(new someClass());

after you write "List<someClass> myClasses = new List<someClass>();" you can do everything with the "myClasses" list such as:

myClasses.Add(new someClass());
myClasses.Remove(classToRemove);
myClasses.RemoveAt(index);
myClasses.AddRange(myClassListOrArray);
myClasses.Contains(someClass);
and so on........

in that way you don´t limit yourself to just an array of 10 but you can add/remove/addRange(add an entire array etc) anytime. and if you use Dictionary<> you can add even keys etc. so i don´t see the point for so much complaining but i understand why you´re dissapointed as the code you wrote there is very basic and it won´t get you far.

also if you want an array of classes that´s the worst way to do your stuff as you have Lists<myclass> or Dictionary<myclass,type> and you can even go further and create Lists<Lists<myclass>> of lists or lists of lists containing lists lol hehehe. those methods are great to build a puzzle structure where you load the stuff you need when its needed and unload un-necessary stuff as well when its not needed anymore. the complexity of the logic is in your hands so to say.

With all that am not saying C# can do everything but C++ can´t do everything either. the main difference is that if i can´t do something in C# that is possible with C++ or probably i just know how to do that in C++ i still can use C++ code in C# to do the desired task(just as i did in @ES just because i didn´t knew how to do a task in C# but i knew how to accomplish it in C++) while in C++ i can´t use C# code

last but not least i didn´t mean to attack you by any means but it makes no sense to me to complain about those small things when your code tells me you´re still in the basics of C#(no offense).

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Last edited by @ruantec; 1 Week Ago at 20:28..

[cottonvibes]

Originally Posted by nonoitall

Well, technically you have one more line than you need there; you can do this:

someClass[] myClasses = new someClass[10];

well thats interesting.
so in c# you can use the 'new' keyword on class member variable declarations.

Originally Posted by nonoitall

Or, if by "quick" you were talking about the quicker allocation of stack arrays vs. heap arrays, you can do that too (albeit with messy syntax, and IIRC it only works on arrays of value types, though I'd think you could work around that by having a container struct for your class references):

unsafe {
  int* myInts = stackalloc int[10];
}

Though C#'s memory management means that using "new" doesn't come with quite as big of a performance penalty as it did by default in C++, so this technique has fewer benefits/applications than it would in a manually managed setting.

well i was really talking about the time it takes to write the stuff, and how clean it looks.
int a[10];
vs
int[] a = new int[10];

considering most languages (that i've coded with) will use the first syntax, its annoying c# doesn't support it.

Originally Posted by nonoitall

Can't come up with a defense for the other irritations, though I will say such strict type safety can prevent some typos and other mistakes from becoming bugs, IE:

if(myInt = 25)

instead of:

if(myInt == 25)

The former is valid C++, while it would raise a compile-time error in C#, since integers cannot be implicitly converted to booleans.

yeh i already had discussed that argument with some other people.
brings me back to my point that c# doesn't trust the programmer.
some people like that, some people don't.

i personally like a lot of options in a programming language, and i like being able to do cool tricks because of the freedom the language gives.

as a minor example, stuff like:
int a = 10;
int b = !!a; // makes b = 1;
you can't do cool things like that when languages restrict you so much.

some people think c++ is very evil because it lets you get away with some tricky things; but i think its awesome because you CAN do such cool things.

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[@ruantec]

cotton is not that C# doesn´t trust programmers it just tries to keep you in the right path to avoid possible errors you could do/get... eitherway there are ways to overcome that..

i forgot one more thing about your static variable problems in C# on my previous post and i know the solution to your problem:

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

the biggest annoyance i've encountered is no local static variables in member functions! wtf! it makes code so ugly.

you can't do

public void foo() { 
    static int x = 0;
}

that's really annoying since you end up having to declare these private variables OUTSIDE the function, which is ugly IMO.
IIRC even java lets you declare static vars within methods, and AFAIK even vb.net does!

the C# version:

public static void foo() { 
    int x = 0;
}

again.... not possible????

now what´s the main difference??? i don´t have to declare variables inside that method as "static" as everything i declare there its static.

so instead of writing this:

public void foo() { 
    static int x = 0;
    static int y = 1;
    static int z = 2;
}

all you have to do in C# is this:

public static void foo() { 
    int x = 0;
    int y = 1;
    int z = 2;
}

if that´s annoying and ugly than i don´t know what to think seriously... btw it is me or am i using less code

now why doesn´t C# support static method variables the way other languages does?
First, it is possible to get nearly the same effect by having a class-level static(just as i showed), and adding method statics would require increased complexity.

Second, method level statics are somewhat notorious for causing problems when code is called repeatedly or from multiple threads, and since the definitions are in the methods, it's harder to find the definitions.

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Last edited by @ruantec; 1 Week Ago at 15:44..

[Proto]

Static variables in non-static methods are useful in the case of constant static variables. For example

public  void foo() { 
    const static int internalImportantValue = *some calculation that only happens once*;
    int restOfVariables;

}

That way I save space, execution time and keep consistency by keeping one single variable value, since it only gets initialized once.

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[Fadingz]

I learnt C++ first, and C# just doesn't really register for me

I do know MEL script though, which is like a combination between C and C++ with Maya library.

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[@ruantec]

Yea C++ its awesome and that´s a fact.. i haven´t coded in C++ for quite a while now as i haven´t seen the need to write any C++ code except for a small feature in @ES which i didn´t knew how to do in C# but i did knew how is done in C++. either way in my eyes most of languages are awesome and just want to clear something....

Am by no means trying to push C# as the saviour of all our problems nor saying its the way to go but its the language i do recommend for a beginner.. many may end not coding in C# but instead in C++ but that´s the idea.. beginners should choose whatever they like. what i definitely don´t believe is that languages are saviours or make a beginner a better coder. in my eyes the fastest language in the world is useless in the hands of a non-skilled coder so even using the best tools if you don´t code your project well you will end having a dissaster and even the fastest language can´t help as the coder is the one that makes the magic and not the language.

am preparing some stuff which i will post soon here and its about the results you can get even on languages that are described as "slow" were i´ll show the proof that i´ve got probably the worlds fastest algorithmn ever made in the history programming... and all started one day in the morning while eating some cheese balls which i used to simulate the flow lol... that day i got an idea that its going to proof what could even be done using crappy tools such as VB6. i think is a good info because coders here have been talked about coding execution speeds since quite long time now and maybe i got it wrong(even loving C++ as hell) but i have the feeling many are trying to let beginners think only C++ is the magic language and that is what bothers me a lot(i don´t consider C# as the magic language either but just as a good language).

Results i´ve got so far:
- 68MB memory usage
- 258GB of pure Audio
- 54.000 files to scan
- Full MP3 tags
- Covers with pictures
- loaded in 20 seconds

all that in VB6.. the test cought my attention and am planning to do the same in C#. also during our tests we´ve discovered that there´s not a single audio app on earth capable to handle such amount of data nor load the information in 20 secs(58 secs at the first run) regardless of the language the app was written nor the team behind.

of course other C/C++ coders are going to come with the low-level argument as its the only one we(C/C++ coders) have.. tho am talking about coding excecution, coding logic and algorithmn just in case.

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Last edited by @ruantec; 1 Week Ago at 16:41..

[Proto]

am preparing some stuff which i will post soon here and its about the results you can get even on languages that are described as "slow" were i´ll show the proof that i´ve got probably the worlds fastest algorithmn ever made in the history programming...

You might want to send it here even.

On a more serious note, those are some impressive results, but if you want to tout it as a super effective algorithm you might want to generalize it to a more general case than data loading. Otherwise it is more like a super fast program just in that particular application. Which is very respectable in and of itself.

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Last edited by Proto; 1 Week Ago at 16:39..

[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by Proto

You might want to send it here even.

On a more serious note, those are some impressive results, but if you want to tout it as a super effective algorithm you might want to generalize it to a more general case than data loading. Otherwise it is more like a super fast program just in that particular application. Which is very respectable in and of itself.

as far as i can tell it should be applicable in many areas or scenarios as its based in the Dreamcast GPU rendering tricks but it works in a different way.. i know it sounds weird but i used cheese balls to create the entire logic lol.

again i want to clarify something:

The reason why i´ll post that info and maybe if someone is interested i could share some ideas etc. is not to glorify myself as am not interested in it.. what i do here i do it for fun and so i code for fun.. i never look for competition nor see other projects as competition as we are all coders and that´s what count.. the main reason i post my results here is to show that there are always ways to do things if you look for a way to do it right. also am always open for conversations so i have no problems to discuss my opinions or ideas with others and so everyone could learn from me as well as i could learn from others.

i wanted to clarify that as i´ve started to have the feeling that maybe people could see what i do as competition or such thing(i hope am wrong on that)...that´s maybe the reason for some controversy as many coders probably don´t understand why i make "X" post/project showing something when in reality am just having fun coding and love to share the information with others that may be interested.... as for the rest i always think they could ignore it.. well i thought it would be a good idea to clarify this just in case. anyways thank you for your suggestions mate and i´ll take them in count

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Last edited by @ruantec; 1 Week Ago at 17:04..

[fried_egg]

the best language to first teach someone is whatever language they want to do something in.

[KrossX]

In here, schools (and University) seem to start with Java and Netbeans as IDE. Is usually used only for the first class, which lasts around 4 months.

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