Vista: good or bad?

[Spyhop]

Originally Posted by Squall-Leonhart

i don't have to prove crap to you.

Oh yes you do. You made the ludicrous claim that xp is 3x faster than Vista. The burden is now on you to prove it. I am willing to back up my stance, and you are now running from your obligation to do the same. If you cannot provide evidence, you lose.

But it always was obvious that you're pulling statistics out of your ass.

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[PCXL-Fan]

I'm the one of the only ones here NOT twisting information around to suit a pre-determined notion that my OS of choice is good or bad

Hey what about me and my previous 2 posts?

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Yes, I like anime, Street Fighter, Japanese music and download video game music. Yes, I know... I've changed.

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[Spyhop]

Originally Posted by PCXL-Fan

Hey what about me and my previous 2 posts?

Thats why I said one OF the only ones....allowing for a few people

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[PCXL-Fan]

Ah.

I haven't seen many DX9L Vista SP1 benchmarks vs DX9C XP SP2/3, but a big part of the reason DX10 is slower than DX9 is because they redid the architecture of direct3d and completely removed the cpus handling of it. Now its almost completely handled by the gpu without getting assistance from the cpu.

Other than that it would of course be because its handling more complex graphics.

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Yes, I like anime, Street Fighter, Japanese music and download video game music. Yes, I know... I've changed.

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[mudlord]

Then you didn't know what you were doing when installing OS on said friend's computer. But I'll give you the opportunity to prove this so-called 3x performance. Choose your benchmark and run it. I will run the same on my Vista machine. We'll post screenshots here.

Not a fair contest.

You are running a overclocked hi end C2D with 4GB RAM.
How is that fair compaired to a single core Athlon with a GeForce FX?

It hardly is.

Seriously make sure computers are evenly specced before testing Vista performance against other OSes.

Other than that it would of course be because its handling more complex graphics.

.....

Now you let the cat out of the bag....

Please, post SPECIFIC examples of HOW DX10 is better to DX9 OR OpenGL 2.1 WITH GL extensions.

Also, post a detailed description of what benefits DX10 offers to the average graphics developer.

Thank you.

[Spyhop]

Originally Posted by mudlord

Not a fair contest.

You are running a overclocked hi end C2D with 4GB RAM.
How is that fair compaired to a single core Athlon with a GeForce FX?

It hardly is.

Seriously make sure computers are evenly specced before testing Vista performance against other OSes.

If you read Squall's insane claim you'll see it's a completely fair contest. According to him, his old athlon running xp should still be able to trounce my machine running vista.

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[Squall-Leonhart]

Lol, the Driver still prepares frames before sending them to the GPU, so whether Dx does or not, the Driver always does.

Another point of failure in the drivers themselves.

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Last edited by Squall-Leonhart; July 21st, 2008 at 07:13..

[PCXL-Fan]

Originally Posted by mudlord

Now you let the cat out of the bag....

Please, post SPECIFIC examples of HOW DX10 is better to DX9 OR OpenGL 2.1 WITH GL extensions.

Also, post a detailed description of what benefits DX10 offers to the average graphics developer.

Thank you.

I'm not saying dx10 is great . I'm not a Vista fanboy.

The improvements it offers over dx9 are minor. None the less some of the things dx10 potentially offers is slightly enhanced shading, HDR and improved looking water . All I'm saying is implementing these minor enhancements will have an impact on performance. Your right, in that dx10 doesn't offer very much over dx9.

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Yes, I like anime, Street Fighter, Japanese music and download video game music. Yes, I know... I've changed.

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[Squall-Leonhart]

well it seems FX cards support most of the OG2.1 extensions, except SL1.2, in wonder how they'll do with opengl 3.0...

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[mudlord]

I'm not saying dx10 is great . I'm not a Vista fanboy.

The improvements it offers over dx9 are minor. None the less some of the things dx10 potentially offers is slightly enhanced shading, HDR and improved looking water . All I'm saying is implementing these minor enhancements will have an impact on performance. Your right, in that dx10 doesn't offer very much over dx9.

Oh darn, I thought I was going to have a enlightening discussion over instancing and other things that MS intended to improve on in DX10

None the less some of the things dx10 potentially offers is slightly enhanced shading, HDR and improved looking water

If you put enough effort in, you can do all that in DX9.

[PCXL-Fan]

Originally Posted by mudlord

Oh darn, I thought I was going to have a enlightening discussion over instancing and other things that MS intended to improve on in DX10



If you put enough effort in, you can do all that in DX9.

Yeah the way I worded my sentence I wasn't fully communicating what I meant and I was lining myself up to be reamed.

I should have been more selective in the words i chose, or put the word "slightly" in the sentence.

'Complex' wasn't the best choice of words either, as a more accurate term would be it enhances the graphics and doesn't make them more complex. Its not as though we are getting more polygons or higher res textures or are implementing new graphics or rendering techniques.

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Yes, I like anime, Street Fighter, Japanese music and download video game music. Yes, I know... I've changed.

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Last edited by PCXL-Fan; July 21st, 2008 at 07:34..

[Glaedrin]

Well, OpenGL 3.0 comes out in August at Siggraph (that's what Khronos group says)

Maybe we can see some awesome demonstrations there?

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OS: Windows XP SP2 FTW

[gamefreak94]

Well in reply to the post saying that each new OS requires more computing power then the previous, I completely agree, but when I said that XP is effecient, I meant that it gives back many features for the extra computing power it takes over Windows 98. In practical terms, Vista hogs up computing power but doesn't give many features in return and in fact, has many limitations to its tweaking. It also has some feature at totally ruins your privacy online (though hackers managed to do that along time ago but still) whose name I can't quite remember. Go to BadVista.org: Stopping Microsoft Windows Vista adoption by promoting free software — BadVista and check out this stupid stuff. Though I would have to agree that the website is an anti-Microsoft bandwagon andd goes to extremes by selling anti-Microsoft T-Shirts, most likely made to increase the popularity of open-source OS's (like Linux maybe) but still you should check it out. To cap it all up, I would say that even if I had a Core 2 Extreme processor with DDR3 RAM which can easily handle Vista, why should I upgrade to an OS which will take longer to familiarize, has lots of faults and slows down system speed (and doesn't give back much in return) when I can get some extra performance out of a much better and stable XP. I know that when a good stable version of Vista does arrive, XP will fast become obselete, and even I will upgrade but for the moment XP is the OS everybody should consider using and continue to use even if they are half-satisifed with it.

[Spyhop]

Originally Posted by gamefreak94

It also has some feature at totally ruins your privacy online (though hackers managed to do that along time ago but still) whose name I can't quite remember. Go to BadVista.org: Stopping Microsoft Windows Vista adoption by promoting free software — BadVista and check out this stupid stuff. Though I would have to agree that the website is an anti-Microsoft bandwagon andd goes to extremes by selling anti-Microsoft T-Shirts, most likely made to increase the popularity of open-source OS's (like Linux maybe) but still you should check it out.

I think you already summed it up. Anti-MS garbage by open source fanboys. I'm an advocate of open source too, but these fanboys annoy the crap out of me.

To cap it all up, I would say that even if I had a Core 2 Extreme processor with DDR3 RAM which can easily handle Vista, why should I upgrade to an OS which will take longer to familiarize

It's still windows.

has lots of faults

? Like?

and slows down system speed

The performance in XP is a bit better. But only a bit. The difference is so small you have to benchmark it to see it....and even then it's not a big difference. Given the power of today's computers the difference is negligible and not worth dwelling and arguing about (unless some idiot claims 3x performance difference)

(and doesn't give back much in return)

-more versatile installer
-better in-OS volume manager, often eliminating the need for 3rd party drive management
-better visual qualities (those who claim this doesn't matter can go back to using command line)
-sidebar
-More RDP features
-New Media Centre
-Smoother task switching
-Better start menu customization.
-Start menu search
-Better file management
-Time Machine like file archiving (windows did it before apple)

There's a bunch more....this is what I was able to quickly thinking of and jot down before bed. Vista gives much back in exchange for the nominal performance dip.

I know that when a good stable version of Vista does arrive, XP will fast become obselete

How did you get it into your head that Vista was bad and unstable? I have to reboot my iMac at work more than I have to reboot my Vista box. (I can't remember my Vista box ever needing a reboot except for software installs)

for the moment XP is the OS everybody should consider using and continue to use even if they are half-satisifed with it.

Depends. If someone already has XP then Vista might be too much of an investment if they're not going to use the extra features. If it's a new computer, though, then there's no reason to not go with Vista anymore. Again, there is waaaay too much undeserved hearsay about this OS.

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[Lino]

All the things in nature have an end, there will be also for windows. Yo can see the Gauss's curves.

No Suall-Hardware

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Last edited by Lino; July 21st, 2008 at 08:09..

[Squall-Leonhart]

OpenGL 3 = Geometry in XP.
...now to wrap Dx10 games to OpenGL3..... hmmm.....

Originally Posted by Lino

All the things in nature have an end, there will be also for windows. Yo can see the Gauss's curves.

Whats that? LinOS? im there!

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Last edited by Squall-Leonhart; July 21st, 2008 at 08:07.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[Xblade]

Vista sucks. You wanna know why?
Random Noob: Omg this efing os keeps asking me if I want to do something after I try to. Wtf?! This bastard os comes with software the blocks my mmo!!!!!WTF?!This efing os comes with a fugly gleem that eats my ram like a fat kid at a "all you can eat"! WTF?! Omg this os makes it easy for dumb bimbos to use a pc. Thats not a bad thing..but wait!!!ITs asking me if I want to do something!!!IM NOT A DUMB BIMBO!! WTF?!
I quote from Final Fantasy 12
Basche(Allow this?System Message): "Our paths seem to keep crossing"
Vaan(User):"Its annoying"


That sums up vista. Annoying as hell.
Next pc I buy I'm gonna leave it with Vista though...lol.

[mudlord]

Well, OpenGL 3.0 comes out in August at Siggraph (that's what Khronos group says)

Maybe we can see some awesome demonstrations there?

Main changes are changing from a state machine to being purely object oriented.

Should be interesting, to say the least.

-better visual qualities (those who claim this doesn't matter can go back to using command line)

...sometimes I have to wonder if this is truly justified. Who really cares about visuals when it gets the job done?

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Last edited by mudlord; July 21st, 2008 at 08:40.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[gamefreak94]

Let me tell you that last time around, I feared that my post was a bit too long so I neglected to mention all of Vista's faults, but now I feel compelled to do so:
1) Backwards compatibility not supported, people with older PCs have problems because Vista doesn't correctly configure those peripherals
2)An array of features you don't want, the most irritating being the Digital Rights Management (DRM). This gives Microsoft and Big Media the right:
a) to decide which programs you own and install
b) to decide which features of your software you can currently use
c) to force you to install new programs ven if you don't want (and of course pay for them)
d) to restrict access to certain programs and at times, even your own data files

3) System instability
4) Expensive
5) Buggy, (I haven't bothered to use it, so I can't specifically tell but Xblade's post above should give you the idea)
6) A lot of our old and favorite software and games won't work (like my favorite first person shooter game: GTA San Andreas old but still my very best even when compared to Metal Gear Solid and S.T.A.L.K.E.R etc) and also apps like iTunes and Nero
7) If you are running Vista on a notebook, the battery drains much faster
8) Not all people have PC's with Core 2 Quads and Duos lying around, these will have difficulties running games as the Aero-Glass feature hogs up th GPU and RAM.
9) Another set-back of DRM, Vista has put this crippling bs into place when playing next generation (HD-DVD and BluRay) content. When playing this content, the component output and S/PDIF output is disabled, effectively crippling Windows Vista as an entertainment system.

And as far as better GUI layout goes, who the hell wants semi-transparent windows and floating toolbars for a load of trouble and a burning whole in their pockets anyway!

Oh yeah, and as far as acclimatization goes, you said that Vista is still Windows well then why not say that Windows 3.1 and Vista are still Windows, just because they are the same OS doesn't mean that they are that much easy to use (though people will have to get over this problem if they are to move ahead), but like I said, not before most of the problems with this OS have been resolved.

Another advantage of Vista which you mentioned was a "more versatile Windows Installer", well let me tell you that I have never faced any sort of problems with XP's Windows Installer. Like I said before, a one second faster Installer isn't worth all the trouble which this OS comes bundled with. A stable release later on might be worth trying but not yet.

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Last edited by gamefreak94; July 21st, 2008 at 09:43..

[Samor]

Originally Posted by PCXL-Fan

I pretty much agree with you spyhopsian.

The real problem for me with vista is I'm satisfied enough with xp and I want to maintain compatability with several of my old titles like Pro Pinball Timeshock! or Systemshock 2 which I had to scour the net to find an xp compatability patch. I don't think there are ones for these old titles yet on vista.

Big Race USA and Fantastic Journey run under Vista. I did not try Timeshock, though.

Originally Posted by gamefreak94

:
1) Backwards compatibility not supported, people with older PCs have problems because Vista doesn't correctly configure those peripherals

That's why they made this application to check your hardware compatibility with Vista. With my old pc, it said straight away that the videocard couldn't do aero and that I should consider a RAM upgrade. Most of the hardware that isn't from the stoneage should just work, though. But, you shouldn't want Vista on a too old pc. That's like running XP on a pc from 1998.

2)An array of features you don't want, the most irritating being the Digital Rights Management (DRM). This gives Microsoft and Big Media the right:
a) to decide which programs you own and install
b) to decide which features of your software you can currently use
c) to force you to install new programs ven if you don't want (and of course pay for them)
d) to restrict access to certain programs and at times, even your own data files

I use Vista on a daily basis and it has yet to annoy me once about DRM or software I installed.

3) System instability

My system is very stable (there's no random crashes; there used to be Vista-related problems but they were all fixed during 2007). I've had some recent issues with Nvidia's drivers (17x.xx drivers seem to have memory leaking, but 169.25 is fine), but I highly doubt if I should be blaming that on Vista.

4) Expensive

..came with the pc.

5) Buggy, (I haven't bothered to use it, so I can't specifically tell but Xblade's post above should give you the idea)

Seems he's referring to UAC. It can be turned off, but that's not a smart thing to do. It's actually a pretty good feature, the bad part is it was introduced way too late. On XP, every program plays "admin" and writes to the program files directory. They put a restriction on that in Vista. If a program tries to do it, Vista creates a virtual program files directory in the current user's directory. Some apps still don't like that though. You can run those as administrator, install them outside of program files or give the current user writing rights on that particular folder. Btw, they toned down the nagging a bit with SP1.

6) A lot of our old and favorite software and games won't work (like my favorite first person shooter game: GTA San Andreas old but still my very best even when compared to Metal Gear Solid and S.T.A.L.K.E.R etc) and also apps like iTunes and Nero

I've been told Midnight Club 2 doesn't work, but I didn't test it. Personally, the only game so far that I haven't been able to get to work properly is Metal Gear Solid 2. It actually runs when using Creative Alchemy, but the SFX is bugged (apparantly this was an issue introduced with SP1). I even got such obscurities as Sonic Adventure DX running again.
iTunes just works. And Nero has long since been updated to work too.

7) If you are running Vista on a otebook, battery drains much faster

faster than what? and when?

8) Not all people have PC's with Core 2 Quads and Duos lying around, these will have difficulties running games as the Aero-Glass feature hogs up th GPU and RAM.

And that's when you disable it... wait, why are people with old pc's so eager to run Vista?

9) Another set-back of DRM, Vista has put this crippling bs into place when playing next generation (HD-DVD and BluRay) content. When playing this content, the component output and S/PDIF output is disabled, effectively crippling Windows Vista as an entertainment system.

Dunno, I don't use that part. Because the format wars were still going on back then, I settled for normal dvd and a dual layer writer...

And as far as better GUI layout goes, who the hell wants semi-transparent windows and floating toolbars for a load of trouble and a burning whole in their pockets anyway!

They look nice. If your rig can pull it off, you want em on

Oh yeah, and as far as acclimatization goes, you said that Vista is still Windows well then why not say that Windows 3.1 and Vista are still Windows, just because they are the same OS doesn't mean that they are that much easy to use (though people will have to get over this problem if they are to move ahead, but like I said before not now when there are so many cons of Vista

the "now" you speak off concerns the first half of 2007. Your information is outdated, and perhaps a little exaggerated as well. There's been a few updates since then.
Admittedly, performance is still a little better in XP, but IMO the difference can be neglected if you have a fairly recent pc. I've also had my share of fights with Vista in the past, but as it is now I don't feel the need to go back to XP anymore.

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Last edited by Samor; July 21st, 2008 at 11:13.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost