Disparity Between "Frame Rate" and Gameplay Speed: Choppy, Slow Play at >30fps

stupidhead · October 27th, 2007, 15:44

Hi!

I'm using WinXP (32-bit). I've 2 GB of RAM, a GeForce 7800, and an Intel Core 2 Duo at 2.4ghz.

I've got everything checked in CPU settings, and I'm using the ZeroGS graphics plug-in, with minimal settings. My sound plug-in also is using minimal quality settings. I am playing through my DVD drive, using original discs (as opposed to playing with ISO's).

This problem occurs to a greater or lesser extent not only with the "Normal" setting (under CPU configuration), but also with "Frame Skip" and "VU Skip". I have not yet tried "Limited". The use of the "Normal" setting improves the issue significantly, but not to a satisfactory extent.

I have cycled through all interpolation options, and have found the problem somewhat mitigated by using "interpolation off" (shakey-screen setting).

Before I go into much more detail about it all, I think I should just outline the problem simply, so that if it's a "normal" issue with the way PCSX2 operates, I can be saved some writing and you some reading.

The problem is (or, if it is not a problem, then my confusion arises from):

Though the PCSX2 window indicates that my frame rate, as I play, is never dipping below the mid-twenties, the smoothness of gameplay and the frequency of screen updates do not seem to correspond to what I would expect from an application running at such frame rates.
It is as if the games are running at a low percentage of their "true" speed, and, additionally, many frames are being skipped, and of course other certain frames held between refreshes. Taken together, those two faults make these games feel as if they're running nowhere near ~30 frames per second, but rather nearer to a third of that speed.

If the program could drop frames from the display and as a result maintain a speed of gameplay close to the game's true speed, I would be content. Likewise if, instead, the program could render every single frame and just slow down the gameplay accordingly, while maintaining the smoothness of motion of the "true" game. But apparently, neither is being done; many frames are skipped, AND the game is slowed-down significantly. This results in a gaming session that finds me struggling to overcompensate for my view lagging far behind the actual "state" of the game itself. The experience is virtually identical to trying to run a game application far beyond the capabilities of my hardware - yet, with those games (Oblivion with texture mods and high-quality settings, for one), I know from testing with various utilities that the cause of the poor gameplay was my frame-rate being in the teens, but now PCSX2 is telling me that my frame-rate should be giving me acceptable gameplay - and it isn't. That's the crux of the issue that I'm asking for your help in understanding.

I do not notice increased hard-disk activity while encountering this problem, suggesting that the problem is not related to pagefile swapping. This problem also occurs after a "Fresh boot" of Windows XP, with no background programs running apart from those that are essential to the operating system.

So my questions are:

Is this just normal for PCSX2 (that the displayed frame-rate does not correspond to screen updates)?
Could this be due to my playing from physical optical media instead of using an ISO? My CD-Drive settings in PCSX2 are configured properly for my operating system, and while I have not experimented extensively with the cache settings, I have picked the one that seems appropriate for me (thread read.)

To conclude, please understand that I am not complaining about a low frame rate. PCSX2's menu-bar informs me that my frame-rate is acceptable. My problem is that the frame-rate as displayed numerically seems to have no relation to the smoothness of the graphics, in terms of refreshes/updates of the display, or to the gameplay. It plays "stuttery", not just slowly. It plays "laggy". Imagine trying to run Oblivion at full settings, with all graphics/texture mods, on a computer with the specs of mine own; that's how PCSX2 plays for me, despite telling me that my frame-rate is decent.

While PCSX2 can list my frame rate as 40 or higher, the game still plays as if it were running at a quarter of that speed, with input and screen refreshes struggling to maintain themselves. Repeating for emphasis, this occurs regardless of my frame skip settings, though the problem is mitigated somewhat by the "normal" setting, which in itself is perplexing to me as I would assume that skipping frames would make the gameplay more smooth (i.e., less laggy) even if the motion of the graphics were rendered less smooth.

so um stated succinctly (finally):
is this "normal" or what?

thanks for reading, youre nice

Last edited by stupidhead; October 27th, 2007 at 15:50..

Hatman · October 27th, 2007, 16:01

Yes it is. And its a very common missconception. Emulators dont run like normal games. The Framerate is directly linked to the passing of time in the game. You need a constant 50FPS (PAL games) or 60FPS (NTSC games) for the games to run at their normal speed. At 30FPS, the game will still run smooth, but happenings on screen will be significantly slower than what your used to from ur PS2.

EDIT: Furthermore frameskip makes the whole thing even more choppy. I dont exactly know what it does but in most cases, its rather unhelpfull. It also gives false FPS readings.

stupidhead · October 27th, 2007, 16:07

Thank you Hatman. That does explain quite a bit. Although I'm still curious why skipping frames doesn't bring me "up to speed", at the expense of smoothness (through the frame skip options.) Back when I had a 386 PC (about 20 mhz) and was trying to play NES emulators, skipping about 1-4 frames per second brought my gameplay back to the "true speed", and even though the updates were just a touch choppy, because the game was still playing at its normal speed overall, I was able to enjoy myself playing. But frame-skipping doesn't seem to be working the same way with PCSX2...?

Thanks again!

Hatman · October 27th, 2007, 16:09

Usually that's what frameskip "should" do, yes. My guess is it's just not fully functional yet.

**bositman** · October 27th, 2007, 16:17

You could also get that choppy behavior because you are running it off a disc,try making an iso and see if it gets better

__________________

stupidhead · October 27th, 2007, 16:21

Thanks again Hatman. Thank you too, Bostiman.

Am I incorrect in my understanding that there are users of PCSX2 with systems comparable to mine who aren't having these issues, though?

Am I just out-of-luck as far as playing PCSX2 goes (this side of a major upgrade)? Or is there something I can tweak? I'll try making an ISO...

Thanks again.

**bositman** · October 27th, 2007, 16:25

It really depends on the game,some play fast even on weak systems while others struggle even with overclocked-to-hell core2duo systems.You haven't told us what the game is yet

__________________

stupidhead · October 27th, 2007, 16:41

Hi! Well, I've tried a few so far -

First, Twisted Metal Black. The graphics are much darker than I recall (maybe the lighting effects that it uses aren't implemented yet?) But apart from the speed issues, it seems to do rather well.

Second, I tried Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3. It had the same problem as Twisted Metal Black - until it crashed PCSX2 immediately upon trying to enter the level select screen.

"Way of the Samurai" started off well. I began to play through the tutorial, just as a test - and while there was a little hiccupping, the game seemed to be running at an acceptable overall speed. I exited tutorial mode and began to start a game, but I had forgotten to set a "start" button on my controller. Pressing escape, I set one, but then accidentally closed the whole program when I meant only to return to the gameplay window. Since then, I have not been able to successfully boot the game again.

The disc is a little scratched, but I can explore its contents in Windows just fine... Pretty frustrating! But so far, I have to admit that it actually seemed as if this game might've played okay. But the tutorial mode is so sparse in terms of content that I cannot really know.

I tried to play "Jak and Daxter: Precursor Legacy" off of its demo disk, but in addition to the speed problem, graphical corruption rendered the game unplayable.

PCSX2 also fails to read my ICO and Dynasty Warriors 4 discs, despite Windows reading them fine. Like with WotS, my PCSX2 output screen just remains black, occassionally updating with some line about reading sectors, until, after sluggish progress loading said sectors, it finally freezes the program and I am compelled to force-quit through task manager.

I just don't have many games to test at the moment, I guess.

Anyway, I hope that answers your question. Thanks!

Last edited by stupidhead; October 27th, 2007 at 21:52..

PCXL-Fan · October 27th, 2007, 17:20

@stupidhead - read the pm I sent you for some advice

__________________

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stupidhead · October 28th, 2007, 22:13

Hi everybody,

The problem has been largely solved by running from an ISO instead of an actual CD/DVD.

There are still hiccups and slowdowns, but now, at least, games are playable.

Which of the two ISO plug-ins is the newer/better?

October 27th, 2007, 15:44	#1
stupidhead Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: america Posts: 8	Disparity Between "Frame Rate" and Gameplay Speed: Choppy, Slow Play at >30fps Hi! I'm using WinXP (32-bit). I've 2 GB of RAM, a GeForce 7800, and an Intel Core 2 Duo at 2.4ghz. I've got everything checked in CPU settings, and I'm using the ZeroGS graphics plug-in, with minimal settings. My sound plug-in also is using minimal quality settings. I am playing through my DVD drive, using original discs (as opposed to playing with ISO's). This problem occurs to a greater or lesser extent not only with the "Normal" setting (under CPU configuration), but also with "Frame Skip" and "VU Skip". I have not yet tried "Limited". The use of the "Normal" setting improves the issue significantly, but not to a satisfactory extent. I have cycled through all interpolation options, and have found the problem somewhat mitigated by using "interpolation off" (shakey-screen setting). Before I go into much more detail about it all, I think I should just outline the problem simply, so that if it's a "normal" issue with the way PCSX2 operates, I can be saved some writing and you some reading. The problem is (or, if it is not a problem, then my confusion arises from): Though the PCSX2 window indicates that my frame rate, as I play, is never dipping below the mid-twenties, the smoothness of gameplay and the frequency of screen updates do not seem to correspond to what I would expect from an application running at such frame rates. It is as if the games are running at a low percentage of their "true" speed, and, additionally, many frames are being skipped, and of course other certain frames held between refreshes. Taken together, those two faults make these games feel as if they're running nowhere near ~30 frames per second, but rather nearer to a third of that speed. If the program could drop frames from the display and as a result maintain a speed of gameplay close to the game's true speed, I would be content. Likewise if, instead, the program could render every single frame and just slow down the gameplay accordingly, while maintaining the smoothness of motion of the "true" game. But apparently, neither is being done; many frames are skipped, AND the game is slowed-down significantly. This results in a gaming session that finds me struggling to overcompensate for my view lagging far behind the actual "state" of the game itself. The experience is virtually identical to trying to run a game application far beyond the capabilities of my hardware - yet, with those games (Oblivion with texture mods and high-quality settings, for one), I know from testing with various utilities that the cause of the poor gameplay was my frame-rate being in the teens, but now PCSX2 is telling me that my frame-rate should be giving me acceptable gameplay - and it isn't. That's the crux of the issue that I'm asking for your help in understanding. I do not notice increased hard-disk activity while encountering this problem, suggesting that the problem is not related to pagefile swapping. This problem also occurs after a "Fresh boot" of Windows XP, with no background programs running apart from those that are essential to the operating system. So my questions are: Is this just normal for PCSX2 (that the displayed frame-rate does not correspond to screen updates)? Could this be due to my playing from physical optical media instead of using an ISO? My CD-Drive settings in PCSX2 are configured properly for my operating system, and while I have not experimented extensively with the cache settings, I have picked the one that seems appropriate for me (thread read.) To conclude, please understand that I am not complaining about a low frame rate. PCSX2's menu-bar informs me that my frame-rate is acceptable. My problem is that the frame-rate as displayed numerically seems to have no relation to the smoothness of the graphics, in terms of refreshes/updates of the display, or to the gameplay. It plays "stuttery", not just slowly. It plays "laggy". Imagine trying to run Oblivion at full settings, with all graphics/texture mods, on a computer with the specs of mine own; that's how PCSX2 plays for me, despite telling me that my frame-rate is decent. While PCSX2 can list my frame rate as 40 or higher, the game still plays as if it were running at a quarter of that speed, with input and screen refreshes struggling to maintain themselves. Repeating for emphasis, this occurs regardless of my frame skip settings, though the problem is mitigated somewhat by the "normal" setting, which in itself is perplexing to me as I would assume that skipping frames would make the gameplay more smooth (i.e., less laggy) even if the motion of the graphics were rendered less smooth. so um stated succinctly (finally): is this "normal" or what? thanks for reading, youre nice Last edited by stupidhead; October 27th, 2007 at 15:50..

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October 27th, 2007, 16:01	#2
Hatman Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Hamburg / Germany Posts: 522	Yes it is. And its a very common missconception. Emulators dont run like normal games. The Framerate is directly linked to the passing of time in the game. You need a constant 50FPS (PAL games) or 60FPS (NTSC games) for the games to run at their normal speed. At 30FPS, the game will still run smooth, but happenings on screen will be significantly slower than what your used to from ur PS2. EDIT: Furthermore frameskip makes the whole thing even more choppy. I dont exactly know what it does but in most cases, its rather unhelpfull. It also gives false FPS readings.

October 27th, 2007, 16:07	#3
stupidhead Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: america Posts: 8	Thank you Hatman. That does explain quite a bit. Although I'm still curious why skipping frames doesn't bring me "up to speed", at the expense of smoothness (through the frame skip options.) Back when I had a 386 PC (about 20 mhz) and was trying to play NES emulators, skipping about 1-4 frames per second brought my gameplay back to the "true speed", and even though the updates were just a touch choppy, because the game was still playing at its normal speed overall, I was able to enjoy myself playing. But frame-skipping doesn't seem to be working the same way with PCSX2...? Thanks again!

October 27th, 2007, 16:09	#4
Hatman Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Hamburg / Germany Posts: 522	Usually that's what frameskip "should" do, yes. My guess is it's just not fully functional yet.

October 27th, 2007, 16:17	#5
bositman Angel of Death Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 3,629	You could also get that choppy behavior because you are running it off a disc,try making an iso and see if it gets better __________________

October 27th, 2007, 16:21	#6
stupidhead Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: america Posts: 8	Thanks again Hatman. Thank you too, Bostiman. Am I incorrect in my understanding that there are users of PCSX2 with systems comparable to mine who aren't having these issues, though? Am I just out-of-luck as far as playing PCSX2 goes (this side of a major upgrade)? Or is there something I can tweak? I'll try making an ISO... Thanks again.

October 27th, 2007, 16:25	#7
bositman Angel of Death Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 3,629	It really depends on the game,some play fast even on weak systems while others struggle even with overclocked-to-hell core2duo systems.You haven't told us what the game is yet __________________

October 27th, 2007, 16:41	#8
stupidhead Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: america Posts: 8	Hi! Well, I've tried a few so far - First, Twisted Metal Black. The graphics are much darker than I recall (maybe the lighting effects that it uses aren't implemented yet?) But apart from the speed issues, it seems to do rather well. Second, I tried Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3. It had the same problem as Twisted Metal Black - until it crashed PCSX2 immediately upon trying to enter the level select screen. "Way of the Samurai" started off well. I began to play through the tutorial, just as a test - and while there was a little hiccupping, the game seemed to be running at an acceptable overall speed. I exited tutorial mode and began to start a game, but I had forgotten to set a "start" button on my controller. Pressing escape, I set one, but then accidentally closed the whole program when I meant only to return to the gameplay window. Since then, I have not been able to successfully boot the game again. The disc is a little scratched, but I can explore its contents in Windows just fine... Pretty frustrating! But so far, I have to admit that it actually seemed as if this game might've played okay. But the tutorial mode is so sparse in terms of content that I cannot really know. I tried to play "Jak and Daxter: Precursor Legacy" off of its demo disk, but in addition to the speed problem, graphical corruption rendered the game unplayable. PCSX2 also fails to read my ICO and Dynasty Warriors 4 discs, despite Windows reading them fine. Like with WotS, my PCSX2 output screen just remains black, occassionally updating with some line about reading sectors, until, after sluggish progress loading said sectors, it finally freezes the program and I am compelled to force-quit through task manager. I just don't have many games to test at the moment, I guess. Anyway, I hope that answers your question. Thanks! Last edited by stupidhead; October 27th, 2007 at 21:52..

October 28th, 2007, 22:13	#10
stupidhead Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: america Posts: 8	Hi everybody, The problem has been largely solved by running from an ISO instead of an actual CD/DVD. There are still hiccups and slowdowns, but now, at least, games are playable. Which of the two ISO plug-ins is the newer/better?