Power of prayer flunks an unusual test

[Player-X]

Power of prayer flunks an unusual test

NEW YORK - In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.
They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.
Critics said the question of God's reaction to prayers simply can't be explored by scientific study.
The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.
The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.
The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.
The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.
Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him.
"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Moslem scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted."
Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?"
Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."

In other news, scientists discover that water is wet.

[Coolsvilleman]

Originally Posted by Player-X

In other news, scientists discover that water is wet.

Kinda silly study.

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[Proto]

In other news, scientists discover that water is wet.

Sometimes you need of these kind of studies to demonstrate the obvious It may be of no value for atheists like us, but for people that still believe in this it may hold some informational value

[Seta-San]

why does it really matter? i don't understand why you hate religion so much. praying for someone's recovery from an athiest standpoint is simply wellwishing. this test isn't scientific or needed except by athiests that simply want to pummel religion in the ground simply because they are made incomfortable about it.

__________________

[Samor]

This test, I think, does not have value for anyone. It's no different than looking outside out of a window and making assumptions based on that.

You could look outside, see the world and think
"This is created by God".
"I don't see God, so he doesn't exist"
"What a cruel world, would God allow this?"
etc, etc....

That's why I think these tests tell no one anything, really. Neither does looking outside your window.

[Player-X]

Originally Posted by Seta-San

why does it really matter? i don't understand why you hate religion so much. praying for someone's recovery from an athiest standpoint is simply wellwishing. this test isn't scientific or needed except by athiests that simply want to pummel religion in the ground simply because they are made incomfortable about it.

I don't understand why do you hate Zeus so much?

You seriously have to get out of this "there are only love or hate" mindset.

The only problem I have with organized religion is that quite a few people mistake prayer as a substitutes for actual charity work and then act all full of themselves later.

While I don't mind the concept of beseeching a supernatural source, what annoys me are people who only pray for something like cancer research while I donated my time and money and then act all high and mighty like that they are better than me because they prayed to their magic man in the sky and I didn't.

And this research matters, even though it's quite obvious at least it would get some people who think prayer is a substitute for actual charity to actually do more than just simply get on their knees and wish for things to get better.


I just want to ask something:

Why don't Christians pray for Satan?
At first it might seem odd but according to them the god of the bible is supposed to be all powerful and all forgiving while Satan was his favorite, why couldn't they just pray for their god to fix Satan and forgive him anyway?

I have been wondering this since every Christian preacher I have ever met on the street keeps insisting that I worship Satan which would be considered impossible since one cannot worship something which one does not believe exist.

[Cid Highwind]

Originally Posted by Proto

Sometimes you need of these kind of studies to demonstrate the obvious It may be of no value for atheists like us, but for people that still believe in this it may hold some informational value

I doubt it, they'll just say their god will not cooperate with such things and therefore will not let him provoke himself into showing his power this way.

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[dn]

Originally Posted by Seta-San

why does it really matter? i don't understand why you hate religion so much. praying for someone's recovery from an athiest standpoint is simply wellwishing. this test isn't scientific or needed except by athiests that simply want to pummel religion in the ground simply because they are made incomfortable about it.

you have a knack for missing the point completely and rewording things to suit your propaganda. you should work for the bush administration

there is probably some good psycho-physiological research that could be done to look at why complications arose with those who knew they were being prayed for.

also, this is classic templeton/intelligent design attitude - they conducted the research to try and get a scientific basis for their mumbo jumbo, but if the evidence does not back up what they have pre-emptively decided (i.e. not a hypothesis, they have decided that it is the truth) then the "god is above that" or "god can't be explained scientifically" argument comes out.

oh, thanks for the continued good sub-reportage Player-X

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“A commonplace man marvels at uncommon things; a wise man marvels at the commonplace” - Confucius

[Seta-San]

The only problem i have with organized religion is that quite a few people try to replace medicine with prayer. and one of the many problems i have with liberals is that they try to replace actual charity work with higher taxes.

Originally Posted by Player-X

The only problem I have with organized religion is that quite a few people mistake prayer as a substitutes for actual charity work and then act all full of themselves later.

While I don't mind the concept of beseeching a supernatural source, what annoys me are people who only pray for something like cancer research while I donated my time and money and then act all high and mighty like that they are better than me because they prayed to their magic man in the sky and I didn't.

And this research matters, even though it's quite obvious at least it would get some people who think prayer is a substitute for actual charity to actually do more than just simply get on their knees and wish for things to get better.


I just want to ask something:

Why don't Christians pray for Satan?
At first it might seem odd but according to them the god of the bible is supposed to be all powerful and all forgiving while Satan was his favorite, why couldn't they just pray for their god to fix Satan and forgive him anyway?

I have been wondering this since every Christian preacher I have ever met on the street keeps insisting that I worship Satan which would be considered impossible since one cannot worship something which one does not believe exist.

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[hushypushy]

If God is our father, then surely Satan is our uncle?

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[Player-X]

If God is our father, wouldn't that mean that we are having incest with our brothers and sisters?

[PRprince]

Originally Posted by Seta-San

why does it really matter? i don't understand why you hate religion so much. praying for someone's recovery from an atheist standpoint is simply wellwishing.

The fact that he does have a hatred towards 'G'od, proves that in his heart of hearts he knows that there is one.
[example] lets say that people believed that marshmallows are actually alien deities.
Would a normal person feel like they had to be part of some sort of radical campaign to take down that brain washed belief ? ........or..... would someone that was truly convinced that the alien marshmallow religion was completly retarded, not care that people think what they think?

If i was an atheist and I found out that people believed in alien marshmallow gods, my reaction would be " thats dumb, but let them believe what they will" (thats not the case of atheists)

Ecclesiastes 3:11b "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men..."
The problem is, that God hardwired us with the instinct to know that there is a God, so people like player-x and our good admin over there, are not only fighting God (which is like trying to push the earth out of orbit by pushing the floor down) , but their also fighting their own doubts, and natural intelligent inclination to the logical belief that there has to be more to existence than what we can see,hear,and touch.

The only problem I have with organized religion is that quite a few people mistake prayer as a substitutes for actual charity work and then act all full of themselves later.

come now dont be childish, you know that some of the biggest world charities, with the biggest bucks are Christian charities , and if you want to zoom out a little and look internationally, the countries with the largest percentage of Christians are also the most charitable ones. so don't distort the truth.

what annoys me are people who only pray for something like cancer research while I donated my time and money and then act all high and mighty like that they are better than me because they prayed to their magic man in the sky and I didn't.

anyone who would try to act "high and mighty" and hurt your feelings, isn't Christian at all. and they shouldn't be held as the standard, or the ones to stereotype.

And this research matters, even though it's quite obvious at least it would get some people who think prayer is a substitute for actual charity to actually do more than just simply get on their knees and wish for things to get better.

well ill give you that the above research matters, if you give me that all of the other research studies conducted by Dependant (non-theological) parties that have shown the opposite results, matter aswell.

I just want to ask something:

Why don't Christians pray for Satan?
At first it might seem odd but according to them the god of the bible is supposed to be all powerful and all forgiving while Satan was his favorite, why couldn't they just pray for their god to fix Satan and forgive him anyway?

thats easy, give me something hard.
its written, that satin is not only the father of lies, but that sin originated in his heart, no one tempted him, he created sin.
the reason why we can be forgiven of our sins (if we acknowledge Jesus' sacrifice) is that when we sin, we're tempted, and have help, adam and eve (of which our sin comes from) they had help and were tempted to sin, satin wasn't. besides, satin has never been sorry and willing to turn 180 degrees the other direction and change his ways( which is the condition to forgiveness) make sense ?

I have been wondering this since every Christian preacher I have ever met on the street keeps insisting that I worship Satan which would be considered impossible since one cannot worship something which one does not believe exist.

any preacher or any person for that matter that would tell you that you worship satin, is no Christian, nor should such people be allowed to represent God. but since i sense (gut feeling) that you have no idea what a Christian is (and im assuming your not trying to unfairly prejudice towards christianity) ill explain in basic terms (since im a "no bs" kind of guy) what a Christian is. anyone who has not had a real supernatural encounter with God, made a voluntary decision to not only hand their entire lives to God, but also be willing to live a life according God's principles, had God's holy spirit of love come into them; isn't a Christian.one isnt a Christan because their parents go to mas , and wet their head with "holy water"

Now im not saying that its impossible to pis off a Christian to the point where he thinks your might be satin's spawn ( i do it to my mom all the time) lmao
but generally a person who is a true Christian, believe that because adam and eve sinned, the moment a child is old enough to know right from wrong (about age 3-4yrs old) that child is automatically in sin and (compared to God) contaminated and dying, not only physically but spiritually. (which is sin's bi-product). theoretically if the pope (ok bad example) lmao but if mother terresa didnt go through the above detailed conversion, even with all her "charity work" the sin that she was born with , would make her unfit to go to heaven. thats why Jesus' sacrifice is so important. because when you subject yourself to belonging to God, (and actually living this way) you in-part are placing yourself under Gods authority which allows God to take your blame and consequence of your sin and put a big "paid for" stamp on your bill.

Originally Posted by hushypushy

If God is our father, then surely Satan is our uncle?

Originally Posted by Player-X

If God is our father, wouldn't that mean that we are having incest with our brothers and sisters?

Thats a common misconception, God loves you, and is creator to all...... everyone is God's 'creation' but not everyone is God's 'children'. i don't know why catholics have spread this misconception so much , its not like John 1:12 isn't crystal on this. "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—" maybe the Vatican has done away with the bible altogether. or maybe they just happen to miss that verse lol. Christians are children of God, because they fulfill the requirements to be adopted into God's family even though we are not God's natural children.

BOTTOM LINE: look at things honestly and rationally, If God Doesn't exist, then Christians just lived good moral lives, loved their neighbors like themselves, didn't intentionally take part of doing bad things. and generally were of blessing to the world around them, they didnt miss much.....

BUT

If there is a God then everyone who chose to reject God are pretty much in trouble. theres no second chances after your dead.

i rather have a guarantee, then gamble my eternal and everlasting soul. and anyone who doesn't see the logic in that is braindead.

after all what did i miss out on? what do Christians miss out on that is good ? and not bad/immoral/illegal/etc ????


p.s.
dont give me that " crazy Christians believe more in prayer than going to the hospital or taking medicine" thats balogna! and beleived by only like 1% of people, who are just legalistic anways.

not only does the bible not say that you cant take medicines or go to the hospital.

but my Christian mother is a physician , a medical doctor. my aunt is a nurse of high ranking, and both of them are Christians.


sorry to anyone who might have a 'hissy fit' about the grammar

[Mr. Killjoy]

Yet another threading leading to a debate that's going nowhere...
Player-X pointed actual facts, and now everyone's trying to prove who's right and who's not. Thing is: until we die, we'll never really know if what we believe is true. (I don't believe there's a God myself, and if there is, he's nothing more to me than an uber-geek playing with his Sims... who never had fun torturing virtual characters and being overly nice with some others?)

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[Cid Highwind]

Amen to that Killjoy

Originally Posted by PRprince

The fact that he does have a hatred towards 'G'od, proves that in his heart of hearts he knows that there is one.

Depends, you can hate God as a person for what he has done, thus admitting he's real. Or you can hate the concept of a god being in charge of everything. A god is nothing more than a concept of thoughts.

come now dont be childish, you know that some of the biggest world charities, with the biggest bucks are Christian charities , and if you want to zoom out a little and look internationally, the countries with the largest percentage of Christians are also the most charitable ones. so don't distort the truth.

Isn't this one ironic. It's known that the Netherlands give a lot to charity per person of its population. I suppose you missed the chapter of us becoming this wealthy because of slavery and exploitation of other human beings and (now) third world countries?

The US with all its wealth, it became so wealthy because of imperialism coming from Europe, all for personal matters. So how did these christian charity companies get their wealth? It's all just a consequence of their immoral deeds of the past. It's easy spending money when you've got a lot of it. Meanwhile, it's also pretty nice you can make countries economically dependable on your donations.

BOTTOM LINE: look at things honestly and rationally, If God Doesn't exist, then Christians just lived good moral lives, loved their neighbors like themselves, didn't intentionally take part of doing bad things. and generally were of blessing to the world around them, they didnt miss much.....

I like that take on things. Though I prefer to use it the other way around myself

I've been raised as by protestants, thus been giving christian morals. Personally I have the same take on things like Killjoy. Especially since some events in my life I became quite sarcastic about the concept of a god being the all mighty things who doesn't need a reason to do as he sees fit. Examples: Tsunamis killing thousands, during christmas season (oh the irony ), little kids seeing their youth being taken away, cause of cancer. (what happened to childlike innocence promoted in the bible? )

Now that doesn't mean I started to become a person who did "all god had prohibited", far from that. I became skeptical of the concept, yet didn't change much in my relation to other people. I still do my best trying to treat people the way I want to be treated myself. At times I fail though, but that's human

In all, I could be doing much worse. If when I die I'll face a god, whether he would like to be called Jaweh, Lord, Allah, Odin or Freddie Heineken, it doesn't matter. Let him judge me and I'll just wait and see what the sentence will be. It's a shame though that a lot of people who claim to be so god fearing fail to see that you can also be a good person without having a god in your life. No god does not mean you don't have morals. Just like saying you're christian or muslim does not equal you being a good person.

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[Player-X]

Originally Posted by PRprince

The fact that he does have a hatred towards 'G'od, proves that in his heart of hearts he knows that there is one.

Did you even read what I have said at all?
You have a "you must love something or you must hate it" mindset, in which case I ask you why do you hate Zeus, Odin, Ra and Qutezalcotol so much?

There is a difference between god and his followers.

If anything I was a Buddhist but I don't believe in the afterlife aspect of it, there is more of a chance of an Indian prince sitting under a tree thinking about the answer to life, the universe and everything than a magic Jew in the sky who walked on water and raising the dead.

And besides I can't hate something I don't think even exist.

Originally Posted by PRprince

[example] lets say that people believed that marshmallows are actually alien deities.
Would a normal person feel like they had to be part of some sort of radical campaign to take down that brain washed belief ? ........or..... would someone that was truly convinced that the alien marshmallow religion was completly retarded, not care that people think what they think?

What if the marshmallow cult grew to encompass a majority of the population and ow impose their wills on things such as public policy and force schools to teach your kids about "his softness" over proper science?

Originally Posted by PRprince

If i was an atheist and I found out that people believed in alien marshmallow gods, my reaction would be " thats dumb, but let them believe what they will" (thats not the case of atheists)

While I would leave them alone I am not afraid to express my opinion about them.

Originally Posted by PRprince

Ecclesiastes 3:11b "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men..."

Sorry to deflate your balloon there but I would say that I have more of a tendency to believe in an Indian prince who sat under a tree than a magic Jew in the sky.

Originally Posted by PRprince

The problem is, that God hardwired us with the instinct to know that there is a God, so people like player-x and our good admin over there, are not only fighting God (which is like trying to push the earth out of orbit by pushing the floor down) , but their also fighting their own doubts, and natural intelligent inclination to the logical belief that there has to be more to existence than what we can see,hear,and touch.

On the same note I can claim that a human being has a tendency not to believe in a god unless it's drilled into them repeatedly.

Originally Posted by PRprince

come now dont be childish, you know that some of the biggest world charities, with the biggest bucks are Christian charities , and if you want to zoom out a little and look internationally, the countries with the largest percentage of Christians are also the most charitable ones. so don't distort the truth.

Wrong on both counts, UNESCO is not exactly a religious foundation and they don't bother with religion when giving charity, and per capita wise as the Netherlands give a lot more per capita than quite a few countries and they don't exactly have such a high percentage of Christians as most other countries.

Originally Posted by PRprince

anyone who would try to act "high and mighty" and hurt your feelings, isn't Christian at all. and they shouldn't be held as the standard, or the ones to stereotype.

In that case what's a Christian? because according to Mark 16:17-18 a Christian can drink bleach and not be harmed by it, the bible is very clear on it.

Besides it's not stereotyping if they are stereotypical.

Originally Posted by PRprince

well ill give you that the above research matters, if you give me that all of the other research studies conducted by Dependant (non-theological) parties that have shown the opposite results, matter aswell.

Since there is no credible research with the opposite results I would say that that argument is moot.

Originally Posted by PRprince

thats easy, give me something hard.
its written, that satin is not only the father of lies, but that sin originated in his heart, no one tempted him, he created sin.

Technically it was Eve who created sin by eating the apple, no where in the bible does it say that the snake was Satan.

Satan was god's favorite angel and he cast into hell because he question god on why does god send him out to kill so many people.

Originally Posted by PRprince

the reason why we can be forgiven of our sins (if we acknowledge Jesus' sacrifice) is that when we sin, we're tempted, and have help, adam and eve (of which our sin comes from) they had help and were tempted to sin, satin wasn't. besides, satin has never been sorry and willing to turn 180 degrees the other direction and change his ways( which is the condition to forgiveness) make sense ?

Then why don't go pray for him so that he does do that?

Originally Posted by PRprince

any preacher or any person for that matter that would tell you that you worship satin, is no Christian, nor should such people be allowed to represent God.

Funny, they say the same about each other including people who like you who use the "they are not true Christians" argument.

Originally Posted by PRprince

but since i sense (gut feeling) that you have no idea what a Christian is (and im assuming your not trying to unfairly prejudice towards christianity) ill explain in basic terms (since im a "no bs" kind of guy) what a Christian is.

I think I do, a Christian is a Jew who has accepted that Yeohesua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) is the messiah of the Jewish god who died on the station of the cross after being crucified and lives by all the rules of the old and new testament.

Originally Posted by PRprince

anyone who has not had a real supernatural encounter with God, made a voluntary decision to not only hand their entire lives to God, but also be willing to live a life according God's principles, had God's holy spirit of love come into them; isn't a Christian.one isnt a Christan because their parents go to mas , and wet their head with "holy water"

I don't know where that paragraph starts or ends but I would assume that you just called Jehovah is a loving god.

In that case according to the bible a true Christian should drag you and your family out to the town square and stone you do death for blaspheming. (I hope that doesn't actuaily happen, you seem like a nice person)

The god of the bible is a jealous god not a loving one, he is very clear about it. (Exodus 13:14 and Deuteronomy 16:14-15 just to name a few)

And besides according to Mark 16:17-18 you should have superpowers, since I assume that you can't talk to snakes, can't drink bleach without getting sick and you can't cure the common cold by touching someone you are not a believer.

Originally Posted by PRprince

Now im not saying that its impossible to pis off a Christian to the point where he thinks your might be satin's spawn ( i do it to my mom all the time) lmao

LMAO according to your bible (commandment 7 according to Exodus 20:2-17) you are already on your way to hell without any hope of being saved.

Originally Posted by PRprince

but generally a person who is a true Christian, believe that because adam and eve sinned, the moment a child is old enough to know right from wrong (about age 3-4yrs old) that child is automatically in sin and (compared to God) contaminated and dying, not only physically but spiritually. (which is sin's bi-product). theoretically if the pope (ok bad example) lmao but if mother terresa didnt go through the above detailed conversion, even with all her "charity work" the sin that she was born with , would make her unfit to go to heaven. thats why Jesus' sacrifice is so important. because when you subject yourself to belonging to God, (and actually living this way) you in-part are placing yourself under Gods authority which allows God to take your blame and consequence of your sin and put a big "paid for" stamp on your bill.

Actually even if did live by all his rules and all that (since I don't see anyone committing genocide no one is following them (Deutorotomy13:17)) you only get a chance to be not cast into the pit of fire not actual salvation.

Originally Posted by PRprince

Thats a common misconception, God loves you, and is creator to all...... everyone is God's 'creation' but not everyone is God's 'children'.

That's true, only the Israelites are his children according to various parts of the bible, if you are a Jew and accept Christ you have a chance not to be tossed into the pit of fire, otherwise you are pretty much screwed.

Originally Posted by PRprince

i don't know why catholics have spread this misconception so much , its not like John 1:12 isn't crystal on this. "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—" maybe the Vatican has done away with the bible altogether. or maybe they just happen to miss that verse lol. Christians are children of God, because they fulfill the requirements to be adopted into God's family even though we are not God's natural children.

Actually the catholics pretty much preach the same thing except in Latin.

Originally Posted by PRprince

BOTTOM LINE: look at things honestly and rationally, If God Doesn't exist, then Christians just lived good moral lives, loved their neighbors like themselves, didn't intentionally take part of doing bad things. and generally were of blessing to the world around them, they didnt miss much.....

Don't tempt me to Godwin this thread, you don't have to be religious to have charity or morals
Besides there are examples of people who did horrible things in the name of Jesus and Jehovah (Don't bother using the "they are not Christian" argument)

BUT

If there is a God then everyone who chose to reject God are pretty much in trouble. theres no second chances after your dead.

i rather have a guarantee, then gamble my eternal and everlasting soul. and anyone who doesn't see the logic in that is braindead.[/quote]
According to the bible even if you follow everything to the letter, accept god into your heart and do nothing except good in the world there is still a good chance that you won't get to go to heaven.

And then there is the problem that there is a chance that your god is the wrong god so you have as much of a chance as I do not to have the afterlife of your choice, besides I don't recall the bible talking about heaven as an eternally blissful place, it's more like hanging out with a superstar for all eternity (which would get boring after a while) rather than hanging out in their cruise ship drinking champaign forever.

Originally Posted by PRprince

after all what did i miss out on? what do Christians miss out on that is good ? and not bad/immoral/illegal/etc ????

They do miss out on not feeling guilty about some of their own thoughts.

Originally Posted by PRprince

p.s.
dont give me that " crazy Christians believe more in prayer than going to the hospital or taking medicine" thats balogna! and beleived by only like 1% of people, who are just legalistic anways.

Those are in the minority, it's more of the ones that substitutes charity with prayer and acts all high and mighty that pisses me off.

Originally Posted by PRprince

not only does the bible not say that you cant take medicines or go to the hospital.

That's a given.

Originally Posted by PRprince

but my Christian mother is a physician , a medical doctor. my aunt is a nurse of high ranking, and both of them are Christians.

Religion and work are not mutually exclusive, it's the ones that think they should be connected like throwing out parts of biology, physics or astronomy for the bible (they tried it for Einstein's General Relativity, Galileo's model of the solar system and are still trying that with Darwin's Evolution) that are of concern to me, they might seem harmless but if we throw out some solid science in favor of religion it will end up harming humanity as a whole.

Originally Posted by PRprince

sorry to anyone who might have a 'hissy fit' about the grammar

Your post is readable so I don't mind.

edit: I just noticed that this has got to be my biggest sentence-by-sentence reply to date.

[Smooth Criminal]

to opening post

everyone of us know there is no one up their to hear our so called prayers but then again this can be shown as a proof for that.

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^^posted bysonic

[hushypushy]

Originally Posted by Player-X

If God is our father, wouldn't that mean that we are having incest with our brothers and sisters?

I see nothing wrong with that.

__________________
Dedicated to mediocrity and repetition since 1994.

[Cid Highwind]

Originally Posted by Player-X

That's true, only the Israelites are his children according to various parts of the bible, if you are a Jew and accept Christ you have a chance not to be tossed into the pit of fire, otherwise you are pretty much screwed.

Revelation 7:4 should form an interesting read.

144.000 will be saved, the rest of us are screwed.

Originally Posted by hushypushy

I see nothing wrong with that.

Pictures of your sister please, I'm screwed anyway

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[Kurbster]

The moral of this story:

pray for someone you hate. He may die quicker

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[hushypushy]

Originally Posted by Cid Highwind

Pictures of your sister please, I'm screwed anyway

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Dedicated to mediocrity and repetition since 1994.