Vista will grow to be better than XP

[dashboardy]

I was surfing the net actually trying to find some comparisons between gaming in Windows 2000 and Windows XP when I came across a very interesting article. It can be found here; and it's about a new OS being way worse than the old one. Here are some of the parts I thought were interesting:

HOPELESS OPTIMISM must be a fundamental part of human nature, because we want to believe that new operating systems truly represent an improvement on their predecessors. It's easy to point to certain features in a new OS as examples of progress, but end-users often find that a new OS performs like molasses compared to the version they were using. As a result, CTOs wanting to capitalize on the benefits of a new OS may find that new hardware investments are necessary -- and expensive -- requirements

When I read this I thought I was reading a Windows XP vs. Windows Vista comparison.

Our tests of the multitasking capabilities of Windows XP and Windows 2000 demonstrated that under the same heavy load on identical hardware, Windows 2000 significantly outperformed Windows XP. In the most extreme scenario, our Windows XP system took nearly twice as long to complete a workload as did the Windows 2000 client. Our testing also suggests that companies determined to deploy Windows XP should consider ordering desktop systems with dual CPUs to get the most out of the new OS.

Wow, did that ever actually happen? You'd be hard pressed to win with Windows 2000 now. XP has come a long way.

Barring the need for Windows XP-specific features, such as the remote-control and management options, IT departments should take advantage of license downgrade provisions and continue to press forward with Windows 2000 deployments until the installed hardware base catches up with XP. Shops lured by XP features should weigh their options carefully. In many cases, these features may not be compelling enough to justify saddling your end-users with a slower OS. Although differences between Windows XP and Windows 2000 can be measured in seconds, what business can afford to put a 20 percent or greater bite on worker productivity?

This article actually gives me the belief that Vista will indeed come around and leave XP in the dust. Basically what it comes down to is the hardware, and the fact that XP was designed for high end (/future) hardware. Vista requires 1GB at least of RAM to run nicely, 2GB are a lot better for it. I do think that in a couple of years we'll see some pretty cool things with Vista.

I couldn't find many gaming comparisons btw, as far as recent times go. Anybody know where I can find some (i.e. Windows 2K Pro SP4 vs. Windows XP Pro SP2?)

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Last edited by dashboardy; March 18th, 2007 at 09:13..

[Smooth Criminal]

yup vista is surely going to grow more than xp coz
1.dx10= amazing games,graphics and clarity
2.easy to use
3.service packs will bring huge improvements as they did for xp.
4.its the brand name man.Microsoft has a legacy of legendary os>>except ME<< so i think that would also be a factor

but here are some things that will come in its way
1.Linux is growing
2.geeks like me are constantly switching to Linux
3.Linux is freeeeeeeeeeeeeee
4.Linux user friendliness has increased greatly
5.many many many flavors to chose from
6.cool update cycle>>6 months= new update
7.virus free
8.win xp in growing and improving and if the team successfully emulates dx10 then its gonna be very very very bad for vista.


.also vistas biggest enemy is not Linux nor apple it is xp it self

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and if I don't care , do I still get to suck your scrotum? please say yes xp

^^posted bysonic

[darth sephiroth]

there has never been any doubt to that, it's all the other stuff... and it's not infinitely better than XP and could have been implemented in a service pack.

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[RPGW1ZaRD]

The most important right now is that it needs better and more drivers though. RAM capacity will grow and 2x2GB sets are already pretty common, I don't think it will take that long before 4GB is getting as common as 2GB today and 2GB will become like having 512MB with a XP setup. 4GB should be plenty for a while even for this OS taking into account more and more demanding games are launched. It needs better driver support and bugs sorted out and perhaps a service pack release, then it should be usable. It was the same with Win XP too when it was released, I didn't swap to XP until sometimes in late 2004 I think and I don't think I'll swap to Vista before 1 year+ from now either. Depends when I plan to upgrade to a DX10 card and if there's any worthy DX10 titles to be played in DX10 environment though.

I never saw the urge of upgrading to a new OS, better wait until it gets mature enough for it to be worth using. :P

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[S.SubZero]

Originally Posted by shafeen

yup vista is surely going to grow more than xp coz
but here are some things that will come in its way
1.Linux is growing

Linux has been growing. It will keep growing. However, out of the next 100 people who buy that first computer, how many will use Windows, and how many will use Linux? The ratio of new Windows users to new Linux users is very lopsided in Windows' favor.

Originally Posted by shafeen

2.geeks like me are constantly switching to Linux

"switch" and "use" are two different things. If you touch Windows at all, MS's job is done. After you have Windows, they don't care what else you have. So many "Linux people" have a Windows box for "that thing that Linux can't do." Usually gaming or real work stuff.

Originally Posted by shafeen

3.Linux is freeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Free is not always better. Would you recommend Linux to your grandmother because it's free?

Originally Posted by shafeen

4.Linux user friendliness has increased greatly

This is subjective. I personally feel the common Linux GUI's today are very bloated and suffer from a severe case of feature crawl. They are trying to please everyone by giving them everything, and that's too much. But even with all the man hours put into making wobbly 3D windows, your grandmother would still need to type cryptic commands on a terminal to compile such-and-such app when it doesn't work right. Even Apple managed to make the terminal window completely optional in OS X. It's not like it can't be done.

Originally Posted by shafeen

5.many many many flavors to chose from

Along with feature crawl, you have this. People are whining about Vista coming in a handful of flavors. Imagine a new computer user trying to determine the "best" Linux distro for them? There's 50 billion distros, not all of them are free, and not all of them are common. How does your grandmother know which one to use?

Originally Posted by shafeen

6.cool update cycle>>6 months= new update

I don't even know what this means. But I prefer an OS that tends to stay fairly static and has underpinning improvements rather than and one of 500 apps suddenly changing (requiring a recompile on the command line) because of some change Grandma doesn't understand.

Originally Posted by shafeen

7.virus free

The virus threat to Linux
(that was in 2003)

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,920,000 for linux rootkit.

Google thinks Grandma's Linux box is not as secure as you think. It's bad enough Grandma probably has no idea what servers are even running on her box, since she doesn't know what an inetd or an ftpd or a telnetd is. She'll find out though.

Originally Posted by shafeen

.also vistas biggest enemy is not Linux nor apple it is xp it self

Microsoft can essentially end XP at their choosing. They are already guaranteeing it's obsolescence by not doing DX10 for XP. Many VARs don't even offer XP as an option on many of their systems anymore (Dell, HP, etc). No doubt MS had a hand in that. But users want Vista, and VARs aren't going to spend additional manpower and money supporting two OS's.

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-SSZ

[Smooth Criminal]

Originally Posted by S.SubZero

Linux has been growing. It will keep growing. However, out of the next 100 people who buy that first computer, how many will use Windows, and how many will use Linux? The ratio of new Windows users to new Linux users is very lopsided in Windows' favor.

well it depends if ur spoon feeded with windows from the start u get used to it.but if i give somebody linux as their first os they will surely learn it and get used to it.

"switch" and "use" are two different things. If you touch Windows at all, MS's job is done. After you have Windows, they don't care what else you have. So many "Linux people" have a Windows box for "that thing that Linux can't do." Usually gaming or real work stuff.

yeah for sure i use both of them and i would be switching completely to Linux once i get some more time to spend with it coz right now my exams are going on.

Free is not always better. Would you recommend Linux to your grandmother because it's free?

i said its free i never said its better in terms on user friendliness.it all depends on the person yeah if my grandma wants to learn using Linux she could do it in no longer than 15 days.

This is subjective. I personally feel the common Linux GUI's today are very bloated and suffer from a severe case of feature crawl. They are trying to please everyone by giving them everything, and that's too much. But even with all the man hours put into making wobbly 3D windows, your grandmother would still need to type cryptic commands on a terminal to compile such-and-such app when it doesn't work right. Even Apple managed to make the terminal window completely optional in OS X. It's not like it can't be done.

again as i said it depends on person to person and linux commands are not that hard to learn they are fairly easy if one wants to learn them.i aso feared of going to Linux but now after i came to know some things and now i have got a habit of it and now its feels much better.

Along with feature crawl, you have this. People are whining about Vista coming in a handful of flavors. Imagine a new computer user trying to determine the "best" Linux distro for them? There's 50 billion distros, not all of them are free, and not all of them are common. How does your grandmother know which one to use?

well i would recommend my grandma what to use and there are several thousands of Linux specialist on internet that give u recommendation on what to use u just need to find them>>try ubuntuforums.com<<

I don't even know what this means. But I prefer an OS that tends to stay fairly static and has underpinning improvements rather than and one of 500 apps suddenly changing (requiring a recompile on the command line) because of some change Grandma doesn't understand.

no many programs don,t require a recompile.. dang they update themselves up too.

The virus threat to Linux
(that was in 2003)

first of all that was in 03 linux has come aalong way since then.also there are only about 100 kinds of viruses for linu but for windows there are more than a 10,000

Microsoft can essentially end XP at their choosing. They are already guaranteeing it's obsolescence by not doing DX10 for XP. Many VARs don't even offer XP as an option on many of their systems anymore (Dell, HP, etc). No doubt MS had a hand in that. But users want Vista, and VARs aren't going to spend additional manpower and money supporting two OS's.

yeah they would eventually but after that too many compus would be running xp.heck there are billions of computers around the world that still use windows98 and as a substitute for Microsofts drivers etc they use third party one's

and also its just not the question about old people like my grandma or so >>heck she is dead now << its about everybody.>>.gaming support is all that linux lags now and i believe that would change with time.

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and if I don't care , do I still get to suck your scrotum? please say yes xp

^^posted bysonic

[darth sephiroth]

or you could do like i described in the linux vs windows thread... oh and new people who buy computers get windows because there aren't any computers than that come with linux instead of windows... and no, if i dual boot with linux MS looses because then i've got yet another reason not to buy another windows...

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[S.SubZero]

Originally Posted by shafeen

well it depends if ur spoon feeded with windows from the start u get used to it.but if i give somebody linux as their first os they will surely learn it and get used to it.

People don't need to be spoonfed anything. As a natural process of entering into the workforce people will be introduced to computers most likely through Windows. Windows is what the secretaries use, and what security desks use, and what the warehouse uses, and what data entry people use. No matter what field a person goes into, if there's a computer, there's likely to be Windows. One of the reasons Windows became a home OS was because people used it at work and wanted that familiar interface on their home PC. That hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by shafeen

i said its free i never said its better in terms on user friendliness.

....

Originally Posted by shafeen

4.Linux user friendliness has increased greatly

Originally Posted by shafeen

again as i said it depends on person to person and linux commands are not that hard to learn they are fairly easy if one wants to learn them.

One of the first people I ever met who was getting into computers in the 90's told me something that has stuck with me. He told me one sentence: "All I want to do is push the button." You had to see the look in his eyes to really understand the sentence. This is the typical user. They don't want to "learn" anything, and they shouldn't have to. Windows isn't something a user learns, it's something they figure out. Brain surgery is something you learn. Getting a toy train to run is something you figure out. Users don't want brain surgery, they want toy trains. They want to go from start to finish with as little hassle as possible.

If you sat your genius grandmother in front of a PC and had NO manuals at all, and you couldn't tell her or show her ANYTHING at all, do you think she could "learn" a Linux command line? Again, NO documentation at all whatsoever, just a prompt and a keyboard. Now, do you think with the same lack of documentation, grandma could figure out Windows?

Originally Posted by shafeen

no many programs don,t require a recompile.. dang they update themselves up too.

Most of the time. Usually. Well, this one version needs it, but not the other. And this one usually runs fine, but on certain versions of linux it might not. We don't know.

Originally Posted by shafeen

first of all that was in 03 linux has come aalong way since then.also there are only about 100 kinds of viruses for linu but for windows there are more than a 10,000

You said originally NO viruses.

If you said "Hey S.SubZero, where's that 100 dollars you owe me?" and I gave you NO dollars, is that the same? 8) You never talked about Windows viruses in your original statement, so bringing them in to the discussion now is invalid.

Originally Posted by shafeen

yeah they would eventually but after that too many compus would be running xp.heck there are billions of computers around the world that still use windows98 and as a substitute for Microsofts drivers etc they use third party one's

A driver written by the hardware maker isn't "third party". In fact MS's drivers are technically the third party ones. Tho most of those are actually provided by the hardware makers.

Originally Posted by shafeen

and also its just not the question about old people like my grandma or so >>heck she is dead now << its about everybody.>>.gaming support is all that linux lags now and i believe that would change with time.

Linux has niche uses. Gaming is not the only thing it's not ideal for.
There's also certain people it's not ideal for either.

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-SSZ

[darth sephiroth]

Originally Posted by S.SubZero

Linux has niche uses. Gaming is not the only thing it's not ideal for.

examples? (examples of stuff that windows is actually more ideal for)

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"He's not going too far, he's going around the world" - me
"They're looking for a factbook in the fiction section of the library." - me
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[Smooth Criminal]

[quote=S.SubZero;1104403]People don't need to be ...[/quote ]


heck i didn't told the driver was made by hardware maker there are thousands of people who create them just like emu authors create emus

ur version of a typical user is right but things need to change here coz people are spending ass lot of money to get ms software while its equivalent>>nearly<< is available for free

Linux is ideal for people and people are not ideal for Linux.

o-0 u r defending a thread made in 2003 agree it linux is safer than windows
all people use windows because its given to them.if Linux were given to them they would use it.hell even the international firms in India are using Linux to cut software cost and to cut off data crashes

now please explain how can anybody learn anything without assistance. hell u and me didn't even knew to start a computer unless we were shown how to do it by somebody
u don't mathematics unless ur given guidance or u have a guide or u have the zeal to learn

bottom line most people using ms software are lazy and they fail to explore the challenge of linux or *nix systems

__________________

and if I don't care , do I still get to suck your scrotum? please say yes xp

^^posted bysonic

[darth sephiroth]

no they are lazy and think there even is a challenge... Linux is only a challenge if you wanna become a true geek who does everything (and i mean everything) in the terminal.

__________________

"Going too far is going almost all the way around the world, then turn around to go back" - me
"He's not going too far, he's going around the world" - me
"They're looking for a factbook in the fiction section of the library." - me
"I find spam useless and fatally contradictive to its own existence." - me

[Ramsus K]

Originally Posted by darth sephiroth

examples? (examples of stuff that windows is actually more ideal for)

As a longtime BSD user and Mac OS X convert, I have to admit that Windows is more ideal than something like Linux for a variety of tasks I take for granted:

• Illustration, comic book work, and graphic design -- The GIMP and your favorite open source vector-based drawing program have most of the right features, but they're too time consuming to use and require some extra proofing steps to ensure your colors are right. Being able to automate tasks with Lisp code is really nice, but doesn't make up for the lack of color profile and calibration tools, or the clunky user interface. There are some good things about The GIMP's user interface, but they don't match up to Photoshop's layer grouping, layer blending modes, vector masks, and adjustment layers. The GIMP also has poor text support, since it doesn't let you adjust the lead, kerning, base line, etc. for each and every character (extremely critical for graphic design). Tablet support is also quite weak, in that Photoshop gives you more flexibility with using your tablet's pressure sensitivity and tilt with its various tools. Sure, The GIMP has some useful filters, but those are the least useful part of any image editing application.
  
• Photography/digital darkroom work -- Once again, the lack of color profile and calibration tools for X and The GIMP make Linux hard to use in this area. So does The GIMP's lack of support for 16-bit color channels, which makes it harder to take advantage of quality film scans and digital RAW images. And no, adjusting the gamma with xgamma doesn't cut it.
  
• Web design -- Not web development, but actually designing layouts. While you can easily design a good looking layout in Linux, good luck trying to figure out exactly how it'll look to most users, who will likely be running some version of Windows and using some version of Internet Explorer. Hell, just getting a CSS layout to work in Internet Explorer 6 can be painful. It's impossible to do professional web design using just Mac OS X for the same reason (a real crying shame too...).

That said, I've only really experienced using Windows 9x for a few years, at which time The GIMP was much closer to Photoshop in terms of usability, Wacom tablets weren't as common, and I hadn't started Photography. As such, I found Windows pretty useless and stopped using it, but to say the same today is kind of difficult.

The next computer I'll buy will probably be a Tablet PC, which I'll mostly just use for illustration work and web design. I have no problem with the idea of using Windows on it, but it won't be a replacement for my iBook. You have no idea how much swearing goes on when I have to use a PC, start typing something, hit a few Emacs keys to make some changes, and end up getting bell sounds (or closing something)...

[darth sephiroth]

say that to pages that refuse to even try to load in firefox because they think they'll crash or something if not opened in IE...

That's fine then, keep a windows partition for your photography and illustration

__________________

"Going too far is going almost all the way around the world, then turn around to go back" - me
"He's not going too far, he's going around the world" - me
"They're looking for a factbook in the fiction section of the library." - me
"I find spam useless and fatally contradictive to its own existence." - me

[Exodus]

Originally Posted by shafeen

bottom line most people using ms software are lazy and they fail to explore the challenge of linux or *nix systems

You sure it's not because all new PCs come with it?
Or from a standpoint of those more computer inclined: You sure it's not because Windows has all the software (i.e. games)?

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[dashboardy]

i see this turned into another windows vs. linux thread...

[Master Chief]

Originally Posted by shafeen

bottom line most people using ms software are lazy and they fail to explore the challenge of linux or *nix systems

And that challenge, in my case, rewarded me with nothing but a headache.

Damn right we're lazy. Time is of the essence. I don't know about you but everytime I tried to install something in Linux I got some whacky error. I'd follow the instructions and everything but my error was always so rare and blatantly unheard of that hardly anybody in the damn community could help me out. That damn penguin just did not like me! Then when things seemed to be going alright, at the last moment I got slapped in the ass with a big fat ERROR. That was more annoying than a BSOD. I don't really have the time to worry about these problems when I could do it easily on Windows.

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[Ramsus K]

Originally Posted by darth sephiroth

say that to pages that refuse to even try to load in firefox because they think they'll crash or something if not opened in IE...

That's fine then, keep a windows partition for your photography and illustration

Huh? If you're trying to somehow relate "using Internet Explorer to check that your page design works in Internet Explorer" to "creating pages that won't load in anything but Internet Explorer," I'm failing to see a valid point. If it's that using Windows encourages designers to create pages that won't work in anything but Internet Explorer, then your point is flawed. The problem isn't using Windows, but that the web designers in question aren't real web designers, but two-bit hacks who don't fully understand the techniques on which their art is based.

Also, I use Mac OS X for everything, and before that it was BSD. I'm not exactly the type of person who would look forward to using Windows, but if I buy, say, a tablet PC with Windows on it, I'm not going to try installing BSD on there. If I wanted a computer running BSD, I'd have built it myself or bought it pre-installed. Dual-booting is for dopes (Oh, I need to scan and edit this slide real quick, let me reboot...), although virtualization is a decent solution for some needs.

It's not a question of which OS is better. If it's there, it works, and it does what you need, then there's no reason to mess with it. As someone who's been watching it grow up, I can attest that Linux has been argued as "just as easy" or "just as good" as Windows for years, and it's always been pretty close if you ask me, but none of that matters. Sane people don't care what OS they use, because it's still just a computer. Only when it stops working will they try something different.

Even Windows Vista doesn't matter. The only significant change in the computing world is that new hardware and software will slowly force Vista to get phased in as the OS of the masses (things stop working, people try something different...). Then as that happens -- assuming Microsoft doesn't focus on adding new features and actually spends time fixing things -- it'll slowly get more and more efficient (just like each new version of Mac OS X...). That's just how things work.

But whatever. When it really comes right down to it, UNIX is just a hack, GNU is a copy of that hack, Linux is just something to run GNU on, and Windows is a toy OS on steroids... Truth is, the last intelligent computing platform was the Lisp machine, and even that was still just a computer.

[dashboardy]

But whatever. When it really comes right down to it, UNIX is just a hack, GNU is a copy of that hack, Linux is just something to run GNU on, and Windows is a toy OS on steroids... Truth is, the last intelligent computing platform was the Lisp machine, and even that was still just a computer.

[D.D.]

Originally Posted by Ramsus K

Huh? If you're trying to somehow relate "using Internet Explorer to check that your page design works in Internet Explorer" to "creating pages that won't load in anything but Internet Explorer," I'm failing to see a valid point. If it's that using Windows encourages designers to create pages that won't work in anything but Internet Explorer, then your point is flawed. The problem isn't using Windows, but that the web designers in question aren't real web designers, but two-bit hacks who don't fully understand the techniques on which their art is based.

Also, I use Mac OS X for everything, and before that it was BSD. I'm not exactly the type of person who would look forward to using Windows, but if I buy, say, a tablet PC with Windows on it, I'm not going to try installing BSD on there. If I wanted a computer running BSD, I'd have built it myself or bought it pre-installed. Dual-booting is for dopes (Oh, I need to scan and edit this slide real quick, let me reboot...), although virtualization is a decent solution for some needs.

It's not a question of which OS is better. If it's there, it works, and it does what you need, then there's no reason to mess with it. As someone who's been watching it grow up, I can attest that Linux has been argued as "just as easy" or "just as good" as Windows for years, and it's always been pretty close if you ask me, but none of that matters. Sane people don't care what OS they use, because it's still just a computer. Only when it stops working will they try something different.

Even Windows Vista doesn't matter. The only significant change in the computing world is that new hardware and software will slowly force Vista to get phased in as the OS of the masses (things stop working, people try something different...). Then as that happens -- assuming Microsoft doesn't focus on adding new features and actually spends time fixing things -- it'll slowly get more and more efficient (just like each new version of Mac OS X...). That's just how things work.

But whatever. When it really comes right down to it, UNIX is just a hack, GNU is a copy of that hack, Linux is just something to run GNU on, and Windows is a toy OS on steroids... Truth is, the last intelligent computing platform was the Lisp machine, and even that was still just a computer.

well written and pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

except dual booting isnt for dopes, i dualboot

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[Proto]

Please... to both the Linux and Windows fanboys... keep this specific OS mud fight to its specific thread. Even as a Linux advocate this is becoming more and more difficult to watch. People will naturally look at other option when they feel restringed by what they are actually using. We already got Richard Stallman giving us a bad image, we don't need more zealoting

As for the point dashboarding is making, I would like to present him an old orphaned boy that everyone seems to have forgotten. Do you recognize him? Yes! it's Windows ME：）

Really... at this point it is a tad too early to be making predictions on the future of the OS war. With Vista's taking strenght in the years to come, Ubuntu and Suse becoming more mainstream and the such there are too many variables for any discussion to be meaningful at this point. The most we can do is to stay informed of all what is available, and to avoid staying in our own box. That goes for both sides