Shoot to kill in nervy London

[Player-X]

Shoot to kill in nervy London

London, July 22: A man, said by passengers to be “Asian”, was pinned down on the floor of an Underground train at Stockwell station in south London today and shot through the head five times by plainclothes policemen hunting for the London bombers.

“This sort of thing happens only in Hollywood movies,” exclaimed a TV journalist.

It seems British Pakistanis determined to introduce suicide bombings in London are now up against a police shoot-to-kill policy.

Initial reports had suggested that the dead man was a suicide bomber, one of the four being hunted from yesterday when devices which did not explode were left on three Underground trains and a bus in east London.

But since police have released CCTV pictures of four men they want to question in connection with yesterday’s attacks, it seems unlikely the man shot dead was one of them.

Sources said the shooting was done by a special anti-terrorist unit at Scotland Yard known as SO19.

The identity of the dead man was not disclosed when Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police commissioner, briefed journalists today.

He would only say that the shooting was “directly linked” to anti-terror operations. “The man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions,” he said.

Chris Wells, a 28-year-old company manager, said he saw police officers rushing into the station as the man they were chasing jumped over the barriers.

“There were at least 20 of them and they were carrying big black guns. The next thing I saw was this guy jump over the barriers and the police officers were chasing after him and everyone was just shouting ‘get out, get out’.”

Another witness, Mark Whitby, saw the shooting at close range. He said: “An Asian guy ran on to the train. As he ran, he was hotly pursued by what I knew to be three plainclothes police officers.

“He sort of tripped but they were hotly pursuing him and couldn’t have been more than two or three feet behind him at this time. He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor,” said Whitby.

“One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He’s dead, five shots, he’s dead.”

Whitby added that the man did not seem to be carrying a weapon or wearing a rucksack. “He looked like a Pakistani but he had a baseball cap on, and a thickish coat.”

He went on: “It was a coat like you would wear in winter. Maybe he might have had something concealed under there. But it looked out of place in the weather we’ve been having.”

The Muslim Council of Britain said Muslims were concerned there was a “shoot-to-kill” policy in operation.

Inayat Bunglawala, a spokesman, said Muslims were “jumpy and nervous”.

Professor Paul Rogers of Bradford University said today’s actions by the police appeared to have parallels with the “very strong” methods used by Israeli security forces and US troops in Iraq.

London police shoot down suspected bomber
A suspected suicide bomber has been shot dead by the London police at the Stockwell underground station, an area near Oval station - one of the sites of yesterday's blasts.

There was chaos and confusion on a Northern line tube this morning when a train passing through South London suddenly pulled into the Stockwell tube station.

Eyewitnesses say a man of Asian appearance got into the train pursued by three police officers in plain-clothes.

As the train stopped, passengers were asked to evacuate. But one eyewitness saw the police officers fire at the man wearing a bulky coat with a black handgun five times, killing him.

Meanwhile, a group linked to the Al-Qaida, Abu Hafs al Masri Brigade, which claimed responsibility for the July 7 attacks, has posted a statement on an Islamist website, saying it carried out Thursday's bombings.

Pictures released

In dramatic new developments, the London police have released pictures of four individuals thought to be involved in yesterday's attacks, asking the British public to come forward with any information on them.

The police have reiterated that they are targetting no particular community, only criminals.

The police are also hunting for would-be bombers who fled after detonators went off, causing small blasts, but failed to detonate the bombs themselves.

But amid this intensive hunt, London commuters put up a brave front on Friday morning, getting back onto buses and underground trains.

Two arrested
One person was injured in Thursday's minor blasts that rattled the city again in an eerie déjà vu.

The incidents occurred at Warren Street, Oval and Shepherds Bush tube stations and a number 26 double-decker bus at Hackney.

The police have made two arrests in connection with the new attacks. One man was arrested near Downing Street, the site of Prime Minister Tony Blair's residence.

The other was nabbed near Tottenham Court Road, which is near the Warren Street subway station where one of the incidents took place.

Appeal for calm

Appealing for calm, the British Prime Minister said the intention of the bombers is loud and clear - to strike terror in the hearts and minds of the British people.

"We know why these things are done. They are done to scare people and to frighten them, to make them anxious and worried," said Blair.

The explosions came just two weeks after suicide bombers struck in the heart of the city targetting London's public transport system.

Fifty-two people and four suspected suicide bombers were killed in the July 7 attack.
'Shoot to kill' policy

Meanwhile, the Muslim Council of Britain has said that Muslims are concerned about a possible "shoot to kill" policy.

"There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear," said Inayat Bunglawala, spokesperson.

British Asians are also starting to admit that after generations of assimilation with British culture, these events may have caused irreversible damage.

"Since this has happened, people look at us very differently. It's because we are the same colour as the people who are creating these problems. But I think this is happening everywhere in the world. England is a safer country compared to others," says Jojar Singh who stays in London.

Exactly two weeks after the London bombings, the city was once again the target of terror attacks.

Even though police services were quick to react, shutting down transport links in affected areas, questions are now being raised as to how the blasts could happen in the first place, as London remains in a state of high alert.

And while Londoners seem resigned to their new way of life, this incident is likely to fast track the anti-terror laws proposed by the government.

This news is important to me as I am asian and this makes me feel uneasy as the guy from thier point of view looked asian even though the guy was an arab
What better way to sew fear and terror than to make your target govement appear to attack people without checking anything other than appearence first, in a way they let the terrorists win
I wonder if the police officers actuaily got orders before hand to shoot to kill or did they do it out of spite
I doubt they need to shoot the guy 5 times in the head when he is already on the ground and easily handcuffed and draggen tot he police station

[Kurbster]

Originally Posted by Player-X

I doubt they need to shoot the guy 5 times in the head when he is already on the ground and easily handcuffed and draggen tot he police station

What if it really was a bomb under that coat?? He could of easily detonated it in that train within the time of the cops trying to detain him

unfortunately....welcome to Europe's version of the 'post 9/11 era'...and since the laws of privacy are less strict there, it will be a worse one than we had

__________________

[tookers]

The police had the guy under surveillance, they followed him from a house in south london and he was said to be connected with the bombers from 7/7.
If they hadn't of shot him he could of detonated his bomb killing alot more people.

__________________
Laptop: Intel Pentium M 1.5GHz Centrino, Toshiba 60GB HDD, Nvidia Geforce FX GO 5200, 512mb RAM, DVD/CD-RW, Windows XP Pro SP2
Desktop:Gigabyte K8NE NF4 (Triton), AMD Athlon 64 3000+ 2.2GHz, 1x 120GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, Nvidia Geforce 6600GT PCI-E, 2x 512MB PC2700 Kingston RAM, 16x Samsung DVD Writer, Winfast 2000 XP Deluxe TV Card, Win XP Pro SP2
Test Server: Gigabyte Skt 939 GA-K8N51GMF-9, AMD Athlon 64 Dual-core 3800+, 1x 40GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, 1x 120GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, 1x 120GB SATA150 HDD,Corsair TWINX1024 PC3200 2x512MB, Antec SLK3000B Mid Tower, Fedora Core 4 64bit (SMP kernel)

[Player-X]

If they hadn't of shot him he could of detonated his bomb killing alot more people.

yes that's true but 5 times in the HEAD while they have already got him down on the ground and held down?
it would be understandable if the guy was shot in the head once or twice while fleeing with a gun in his hand and shooting at the police or treatening people.
I know the skull can defelect bullets if certain conditions are right like the bullet impacted at a low angle and there was distance between the gun and the skull but I don't belive that 9mm bullets can glance off the skull 4 times at close range at an almost straight angle

[blueshift]

There's no evidence that he was shot 5 times in the head. We all know from experience that people like to make stories more dramatic than what they really were. It was more than likely a single bullet.

[Player-X]

There's no evidence that he was shot 5 times in the head. We all know from experience that people like to make stories more dramatic than what they really were. It was more than likely a single bullet.

There is also no evidence that he was not shot 5 times in the head, besides if I am not mistaken the 5 shots were reported by multiple people in some other news stories

[tookers]

Could be that police wanted to take him down indefinatley, if they'd shot him once or twice he may still have been able to detonate anything he was carrying. Popping off 5 shots and each hitting is certain death, however their could of been some confusion with people hearing only a few shots but then the echoes would make it sound like double the shots were fired.

__________________
Laptop: Intel Pentium M 1.5GHz Centrino, Toshiba 60GB HDD, Nvidia Geforce FX GO 5200, 512mb RAM, DVD/CD-RW, Windows XP Pro SP2
Desktop:Gigabyte K8NE NF4 (Triton), AMD Athlon 64 3000+ 2.2GHz, 1x 120GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, Nvidia Geforce 6600GT PCI-E, 2x 512MB PC2700 Kingston RAM, 16x Samsung DVD Writer, Winfast 2000 XP Deluxe TV Card, Win XP Pro SP2
Test Server: Gigabyte Skt 939 GA-K8N51GMF-9, AMD Athlon 64 Dual-core 3800+, 1x 40GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, 1x 120GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, 1x 120GB SATA150 HDD,Corsair TWINX1024 PC3200 2x512MB, Antec SLK3000B Mid Tower, Fedora Core 4 64bit (SMP kernel)

[_E_]

Originally Posted by blueshift

There's no evidence that he was shot 5 times in the head. We all know from experience that people like to make stories more dramatic than what they really were. It was more than likely a single bullet.

There are witnesses who saw/heard the shots fired five times.

Yours,
-Elly

__________________

-= Moral cowardice that keeps us from speaking our minds is as dangerous to this country as irresponsible talk. The right way is not always =-
the popular and easy way. Standing for right when it is unpopular is a true test of moral character.
Margaret C. Smith

[MaZa]

Originally Posted by tookers

Could be that police wanted to take him down indefinatley, if they'd shot him once or twice he may still have been able to detonate anything he was carrying. Popping off 5 shots and each hitting is certain death, however their could of been some confusion with people hearing only a few shots but then the echoes would make it sound like double the shots were fired.

Thats possible. But still I think that police WAY overreacted in that when they shot him.

__________________
Athlon XP 2600+ Barton, 1GB 333mhz DDR RAM, NVidia 6800GT, 2x160GB HD + gainward 3d glasses
:fart:

[Player-X]

No one can survive 2 shots in the head, there are people who survived 1 headshot but 2 shots in the head will turn any brainmatter to mush easily even if the bullet exited instead of bouncing around, the only reason that anyone will shoot someone more than that is because they lost control of thier emotions same for blowing yourself up, so in a way the police and the terrorists that did the bombing are the same on the emotional level

[tookers]

The bombers all act ruthlessly, guess the police are adopting the same mentality.

edit: just saw an update on the news, the guy that was shot was not connected to the bombs.
Nobody is going to feel safe now, from threat of more bombs and even the police.

__________________
Laptop: Intel Pentium M 1.5GHz Centrino, Toshiba 60GB HDD, Nvidia Geforce FX GO 5200, 512mb RAM, DVD/CD-RW, Windows XP Pro SP2
Desktop:Gigabyte K8NE NF4 (Triton), AMD Athlon 64 3000+ 2.2GHz, 1x 120GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, Nvidia Geforce 6600GT PCI-E, 2x 512MB PC2700 Kingston RAM, 16x Samsung DVD Writer, Winfast 2000 XP Deluxe TV Card, Win XP Pro SP2
Test Server: Gigabyte Skt 939 GA-K8N51GMF-9, AMD Athlon 64 Dual-core 3800+, 1x 40GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, 1x 120GB IDE 7200rpm HDD, 1x 120GB SATA150 HDD,Corsair TWINX1024 PC3200 2x512MB, Antec SLK3000B Mid Tower, Fedora Core 4 64bit (SMP kernel)

---

Last edited by tookers; July 23rd, 2005 at 17:48..

[Player-X]

British police stand by shooting policy

The British police on Sunday defended their shoot-to-kill policy in the wake of the slaying of an innocent man on a subway train as much of Britain's political establishment rallied around the policies of Prime Minister Tony Blair in his antiterror campaign.

Ian Blair, London's commissioner of police, stopped short of an outright apology, even as he expressed "deepest regrets" and accepted "full responsibility" for the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian electrician who died after he was shot five times in the head on Friday by the local police at the Stockwell subway station in south London.
[The British police arrested a third suspected terrorist after a failed attack on Thursday against London's transit system that Blair, the commissioner, indicated Sunday might be linked to Al Qaeda, according to The Associated Press. The arrest came in the same south London neighborhood that was home to Menezes.
[Blair indicated to Britain's Sky News television that he believes Qaeda-linked terrorists were involved in the failed attacks.]
The commissioner warned the British people that more killings of potential suspects lie ahead. "It wasn't just a random event, and the most important thing to recognize is that it is still happening out there," he said Sunday in an interview with Sky News TV.
He described the environment in which his police officers are working as "terrifying," adding that "there is no point shooting at somebody's chest, because that is where the bomb is likely to be."
British opposition politicians largely have supported the actions of the government, but Brazil's foreign minister, Celso Amorim, said he was "shocked and perplexed" by the killing and demanded an explanation of the killing after speaking to his British counterpart, Jack Straw, by telephone and meeting a Foreign Office minister in London.
"Here was a peaceful, innocent person who was killed," Amorim told reporters, adding, "Even in the fight against terrorism we should also be cautious to avoid the loss of innocent life."
Straw, who was not in London to meet Amorim, offered expressions of regret and assurances of a thorough, if lengthy, investigation into the killing, Amorim said.
Family members of the victim struggled to make sense of why Menezes had been killed. "Their explanation is that they had to kill someone to show the population that they are making the country safe," Alex Alves Pereira, a cousin, who reportedly identified his body, said on BBC television. "I ask all the people to ask the Metropolitan Police and Tony Blair, 'What kind of job are they doing?"'
About three dozen people, apparently Brazilians, demonstrated in front of police headquarters in London.
They brandished a banner that read, "Sorry is not enough."
In his remarks Sunday, Ian Blair struggled to defend himself against charges that his police had overreacted. "There is nothing gratuitous here in what is going on," he said. "There is nothing cavalier. There is no conspiracy to shoot people."
Acknowledging that minority communities in Britain had criticized the shoot-to-kill policy, he offered a confusing distinction, saying the policy was not "shoot to kill," but "shoot to kill in order to protect."
But as was the case in the United States after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, there has been a political circling of the wagons as even Tony Blair's opposition has been reluctant to look soft in the campaign against terrorism.
"I'm proud we have a prime minister who knows what he's doing," David Cameron, a conservative member of Parliament and the shadow education minister, said on Sky News TV on Sunday. He said this was not a time to play politics, adding, "We are all in this together." The shoot-to-kill policy was also staunchly defended.
"We are living in unique times of unique evil, at war with an enemy of unspeakable brutality, and I have no doubt that now, more than ever, the principle is right despite the chance, tragically, of error," Lord Stevens, the former London police commissioner until he was succeeded by Blair six months ago, wrote in an opinion piece in Sunday's tabloid, News of the World. He added, "There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfill his mission: destroy his brain instantly, utterly."
Peter Hain, the secretary of state for Northern Ireland, put it more bluntly in televised remarks on Sunday, offering a message to the police officers: "They have our full support."
As a gesture of outreach to the families of the dead and wounded in the July 7 attacks, the police for the first time invited them to a briefing to explain the status and progress of the investigation. Jed Ashcroft, deputy inspector of the London police, told reporters it was a way of "demystifying the criminal justice process."
But there was also sharp criticism of Britain's foreign policy and charges that its participation in the American-led war in Iraq and in fighting the insurgency since then had created an atmosphere that encouraged terrorism.
"Undoubtedly it boosted terrorism," said Robin Cook, the former foreign secretary who resigned in protest over Britain's Iraq policy, referring to the American-led Iraq war and the insurgency that has followed. In remarks to the BBC, he said that the death of the young Brazilian dealt "a very serious blow to our relations" with Brazil, an important ally.
The dead man's cousin, Alves, interviewed on Brazil's leading television network, said Menezes was an electrician who had been working in England for more than three years.
Menezes was from the interior state of Minas Gerais and had been in Britain legally, Alves said. He would have been on his way to work that morning, he said, and had no reason to flee the police.
"How could they have done such a thing as to kill him from behind?" Alves told the Globo Television Network.
Another cousin, speaking to Brazil's national radio network, said Menezes understood English well and would have understood the officer's instructions.
The shooting occurred the day after the copycat attackers tried to bomb three other Underground trains and a bus, but their bombs failed to explode. Plainclothes police officers staking out an apartment followed a man who emerged from it - Menezes - then chased him into the Stockwell subway station and onto a train. Menezes tripped, and one of the officers in pursuit fired five rounds at point-blank range.
After the shooting, Blair, the police commissioner, said the dead man was "directly linked to the ongoing and expanding antiterrorist operation," and the police issued images taken from closed-circuit cameras of four suspects in the failed attacks. They said that, while the man they shot may not have been one of the four, he was still being sought in their inquiry.
A statement Friday said that Menezes' "clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions," apparently referring to reports that he was wearing a bulky jacket on a summer day.
Through most of Saturday, the police refused to give further details. Then, in the late afternoon, Scotland Yard issued its statement admitting the "mistake."

Things go down hill from here

[DarkAurora]

There is NO reason for the man to have been shot when police had him held down. This is murder, plain and simple.

[ChankastRules]

It's horrible, I mean the guy was afraid because he had been attacked by english men before, if I was followed by mysterius civilians I'd probably run too. It's very unfortunate that he ran towards the subway.. otherwise they'd probably not have shot him.

They're saying it could happen again, I guess they don't realise it's a good way to make even more enemies, and killing innocent people is what terrorists do.

[Samor]

People still think terrorist attacks can be prevented. They'll go really far to reach that goal.
Problem is, they won't, and the added security will probably make things worse instead of better - however, if the security wouldn't be there, the media would call the governments reckless on the first succesful terrorist attack and there'd be a whole lot of political struggles, so either way it would be no good.

[Player-X]

I would say that this will not end well, the UK govement could potentialy call political enemies terror suspects and the police will go and shoot them thereby eliminating anyone who disagrees with them

[Metalmurphy]

I say im in favor of the police right now. Imagine your self, ur on a special operation squad and u were assigned to arrest one suposed bomber, the guy doesnt cooperate and runs away, he had a coat that "looked out of place in the weather we’ve been having.” and "might have had something concealed under there", he trips and they might have seen some sucepecious movement, or even if it wasnt theres no way they taking every chances and they're probably nervous like hell so the slightest movement is probably enough to press the trigger considering all the stuff i just said above.

Originally Posted by エッリー

There are witnesses who saw/heard the shots fired five times.

Yours,
-Elly

Firing 5 shots on a "big black gun", and "automatic gun", thats most likely an MP5 ( most used by special ops ) is not the same as firing 5 shots with an hand gun. It only takes 1 second and pressing the trigger once. Dont make it like they killed him with cold blood.

Don't take me wrong i feel really bad for the guy, but dont make the police look like murderes when they were just doing they're job, afraid, and trying to protect other ppl.

One things for sure, this is nothing compared to that Marine that killed that wouldnt Iraqui... "look this one is still alive!!" *TRA TRA TRA* "now he's not hahaha!!".

__________________

-------------------------------- Computer Specs ----------------------------------
Intel Pentium IV Prescott 3.0 HT → 4x 512MB DDR-DIMM → ASUS GF 6800 GT
Sound Blaster X-Fi → 2x Maxtor 80 GB (RAID 0)
Hitachi 19'' Monitor → Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Theater
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

Last edited by Metalmurphy; July 25th, 2005 at 11:27..

[Player-X]

One things for sure, this is nothing compared to that Marine that killed that wouldnt Iraqui... "look this one is still alive!!" *TRA TRA TRA* "now he's not hahaha!!".

in Iraq it's a warzone, London is a bussling metropolis not a warzone

[Metalmurphy]

Originally Posted by Player-X

in Iraq it's a warzone, London is a bussling metropolis not a warzone

As i can see it its now a war zone on terrorists. Either way that makes it ok to kill someone like that? Its against the genebra conventions you know... Under the circunstances its way worst, on one hand you got a possible terrorist, NOT cooperating, might have a bomb, on the other hand you got a wounded iraqui, he can't move only moan, should be treated ASAP acording to the genebra convention, and one guys shoots him for fun and laughs. guess thats ok couse its a "warzone"...

__________________

-------------------------------- Computer Specs ----------------------------------
Intel Pentium IV Prescott 3.0 HT → 4x 512MB DDR-DIMM → ASUS GF 6800 GT
Sound Blaster X-Fi → 2x Maxtor 80 GB (RAID 0)
Hitachi 19'' Monitor → Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Theater
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Player-X]

I didn't say it's accepterble, I just said that the global impact of that display of execsive force would be less