6800U and x800 - Page 3

Mesocyclone · June 9th, 2004, 07:41

[QUOTE=Katsuya]Does anybody else see what’s wrong with that sentence? ( oh jap one )

jaydawg, Take back that racist, insensitive comment.

/QUOTE]

Boohoo, anyway back on topic.. Its really a personal pref when it boils down to it because they both are the best at certain functions and are lacking in others.

**I-Chan** · June 9th, 2004, 09:56

CrishRay, may i ask you where should i look to notice the differences in the videos? I can't see any. What does 'texture shimmering' exactly mean?

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ChrisRay · June 9th, 2004, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by I-Chan

CrishRay, may i ask you where should i look to notice the differences in the videos? I can't see any. What does 'texture shimmering' exactly mean?

Well first you have to understand what a mip map is and does. Mip maps are used to blend textures together,. However a pure Billinear filter of a mip map will not blend the lines together.

If you watch the wall on the left, And the floor at the bottom. You will see a "rolling line" that appears to be shimmering. This is the results of mip maps not being blended together properly. The only to prevent mip maps from shimmering along the edges of textures is to interpolate them with trilinear filtering.

ChrisRay · June 9th, 2004, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

I think older drivers do that. I've been using the new beta forcewares 61.32 and per CP af settings do not use Trilinear or Brilinear filtering on all texture stages. Only the first texture stage gets Tri or Bri filtering. The rest gets straight Bilinear. However, when you use per application AF, Trilinear or Brilinear is applied to all stages.

I'm also not seeing the texture stage AF optimizations anymore. When using 8xAF through cp or per app, all the stages seem to be getting 8xAF. Maybe the AF tester isn't catching the optimization? It does catch the texture stage filtering optimizations though.

Here are a few shots with d3dAFtester.
1st shot: 8xAF per app-tri opts off, texture stage 0
2nd shot: 8xAF per app-tri opts off, texture stage 1
3rd shot: 8xAF per CP-tri opts off, texture stage 0
4th shot: 8xAF per CP-tri opts off, texture stage 1
5th shot: 8xAF per CP-tri opts on, texture stage 0, all other stages looks exactly the same as the 4th shot.

I havent tested the new drivers, They seem to break alot of Nv35 features and have alot of broken useless Nv40 features on em ;p so

Well with the 56.77 drivers that came with my review sample Geforce FX 5700 personal Cinema.

Both my FX 5700 and FX 5900 Ultra are producing the same results.

Texture stage 1 recieves brilinear, and further texture stages reduce the level of Brillinear. But definately not full Bilinear. The Second image is full Bilinear.

Fivefeet, Mind using this aplication? its on the Nvnews file section.

Test it with Brillinear on and off, and we'll see if there are texture stage optimisations. With Brillinear on. Or if its pure Bilinear on texture stages past 0.

Attached Images

	transistions.jpg (122.4 KB, 9 views)
	bilinear.jpg (100.0 KB, 7 views)

Last edited by ChrisRay; June 9th, 2004 at 11:18..

**fivefeet8** · June 9th, 2004, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisRay

Fivefeet, Mind using this aplication? its on the Nvnews file section.

Test it with Brillinear on and off, and we'll see if there are texture stage optimisations. With Brillinear on. Or if its pure Bilinear on texture stages past 0.

Using the d3daftester application, I can see that Straight bilinear is used on all other stages besides the first texture stage when you set AF in the Control Panel. Also, with d3daftester, it doesn't show the texture stage af optimization. Strange. This application doesn't show straight bilinear on other stages.

I've made some comparison screenshots. All were done with the "Quality" setting in the CP.

shot 1: 8xAF-Per Application-Tri Opts Off.
shot 2: Same as 1 without colored mip levels.
shot 3: 8xAF-Per Application-Tri Opts On.
shot 4: Same as 3 without colored mip levels.
shot 5: 8xAF-Per Control Panel-Tri Opts Off.
shot 6: same as 5 without colored mip levels.
shot 7: 8xAF-per Control Panel-Tri Opts On.
shot 8: same as 7 without colored mip levels.

Attached Images

	8xAF-perApp-triOptsOffA.jpg (46.8 KB, 8 views)
	8xAF-perApp-triOptsOffB.jpg (125.3 KB, 5 views)
	8xAF-perApp-triOptsOnA.jpg (45.6 KB, 6 views)
	8xAF-perApp-triOptsOnB.jpg (126.4 KB, 5 views)
	8xAF-perCP-triOptsOffA.jpg (46.8 KB, 5 views)
	8xAF-perCP-triOptsOffB.jpg (125.3 KB, 4 views)
	8xAF-perCP-triOptsOnA.jpg (45.6 KB, 4 views)
	8xAF-perCP-triOptsOnB.jpg (126.4 KB, 4 views)

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Last edited by fivefeet8; June 9th, 2004 at 20:48..

**fivefeet8** · June 9th, 2004, 20:34

I found it very hard if not impossible to see Brilinear filtering in those comparisons at 8xAF so I've made these 4 shots at 2xAF/0xAF. Hmm. Even at only 2xAF, it's hard to discern any noticeable filtering differences between FULL Trilinear and Brilinear. I only see a small difference in the middle of the street in the distance on the horizon.

I think it may be more noticeable in movement in a real game, but I haven't really noticed it in games either.

shot 1: 2xAF-per application-tri opts off.
shot 2: 2xAF-per application-tri opts on.
shot 3: 0xAF-per application-tri opts off.
shot 4: 0xAF-per application-tri opts on.

Attached Images

	2xAF-PerApp-TriOptsOff.jpg (161.6 KB, 2 views)
	2xAF-PerApp-TriOptsOn.jpg (162.6 KB, 2 views)
	0xAF-perApp-TriOptsOff.jpg (140.4 KB, 2 views)
	0xAF-perApp-TriOptsOn.jpg (141.3 KB, 2 views)

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Last edited by fivefeet8; June 9th, 2004 at 20:44..

ChrisRay · June 9th, 2004, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

I found it very hard if not impossible to see Brilinear filtering in those comparisons at 8xAF so I've made these 4 shots at 2xAF/0xAF. Hmm. Even at only 2xAF, it's hard to discern any noticeable filtering differences between FULL Trilinear and Brilinear. I only see a small difference in the middle of the street in the distance on the horizon.

I think it may be more noticeable in movement in a real game, but I haven't really noticed it in games either.

shot 1: 2xAF-per application-tri opts off.
shot 2: 2xAF-per application-tri opts on.
shot 3: 0xAF-per application-tri opts off.
shot 4: 0xAF-per application-tri opts on.

Well I wasnt looking for it to be "noticable" just so we can see if the mip map transistions are truly recieving Bilinear on the lower texture stages. It does not look like they are from your shots.

It could because Nvidia detects Colored Mip Maps too. But it's hard to say. I am having trouble getting 3d analyze to enable color mip maps in Unreal. I'll try another game in a Moment. And see what you think.

P.S. I am having a hell of a time getting colored mip maps to enable. So I'm kinda curious about this too.

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Last edited by ChrisRay; June 9th, 2004 at 22:53..

**fivefeet8** · June 10th, 2004, 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisRay

Well I wasnt looking for it to be "noticable" just so we can see if the mip map transistions are truly recieving Bilinear on the lower texture stages. It does not look like they are from your shots.

It could because Nvidia detects Colored Mip Maps too. But it's hard to say. I am having trouble getting 3d analyze to enable color mip maps in Unreal. I'll try another game in a Moment. And see what you think.

P.S. I am having a hell of a time getting colored mip maps to enable. So I'm kinda curious about this too.

Yeah, I know you weren't looking for it to be noticeable. I was just saying what I was seeing. I was also wondering if Nvidia is detection colored mips too, but I tested UT2k4 and enabled colored mips. The FPS didn't change from enabling or disabling colored mips so it doesn't seem like they are detecting it. I've also noticed some strange filtering in ut2k3 though. I'll post up shots of what I mean. Also, I'll post some of the texture stage filtering from d3daftester where you can clearly tell it's straight bilinear.

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ChrisRay · June 10th, 2004, 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

Yeah, I know you weren't looking for it to be noticeable. I was just saying what I was seeing. I was also wondering if Nvidia is detection colored mips too, but I tested UT2k4 and enabled colored mips. The FPS didn't change from enabling or disabling colored mips so it doesn't seem like they are detecting it. I've also noticed some strange filtering in ut2k3 though. I'll post up shots of what I mean. Also, I'll post some of the texture stage filtering from d3daftester where you can clearly tell it's straight bilinear.

Yes, I know there are still texture stage optimisations within the control Panel Drivers.

Nvidia drivers have always features 2x AF on 1-7 with brillinear, I havent noticed any "Changes" with performance unless I disabled trilinear optimisations. So I dont believe Control panel Anistropic Filtering has changed any from these drivers.

However I'm interested in seeing your finding. 3danalyze doesnt seem to be compatible with Ut2003 and Color mip maps. So I'm trying to find another method of displaying them. ATI was always the one who did the Bilinear optimisations from texture stages, With the r300 line. And later moved to its trilinear optimisations with future core revisions.

I guess what you are seeing pretty much mean Brilinear is usually enough, it's nice to be able to turn it off when it's not.

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**fivefeet8** · June 10th, 2004, 04:50

Here are some screenshots from d3d AF tester. As you can see, per CP AF seems to be doing straight bilinear filtering on texture stages other than the first texture stage. Also, it seems 8xAF is not being reverted to 2x on other texture stages. I'm gonna test it in Ut2k4.

shot 1: Stage 0-perCP-8xAF (Trilinear on stage 0)
shot 2: Stage 1-perCP-8xAF (straight bilinear on 1-7)
shot 3: Stage 1-perAPP-8xAF (trilinear on all texture stages)

Attached Images

	Stage0-perCP-8xAF.jpg (170.7 KB, 3 views)
	Stage1-perCP-8xAF.jpg (168.6 KB, 3 views)
	Stage1-perAPP-8xAF.jpg (170.3 KB, 2 views)

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**fivefeet8** · June 10th, 2004, 05:26

UT2k4. Strangeness. I also checked some non mip colored shots and the fps doesn't change from enabling or disabling them in the per Application filtering shots. But somehow, enabling colored mip maps in the CP screenshots shows a 15 fps loss. The strange thing is, it's just bilinear filtering. Why would there be a performance loss from showing bilinear filtering? It seems to me that Nvidia may be testing out various filtering optimizations to see which would work best. These drivers are beta so things could change when the Official drivers are released. Also, 6800 owners might see different things than I am on my FX5900u.

shot 1: 8xAF-perApp (trilinear on all stages)
shot 2: 8xAF-perCp (Bilinear on stage 1 - 7)
shot 3: 4xAF-perApp

Attached Images

	8xAF-perApp-colored.jpg (192.5 KB, 7 views)
	8xAF-perCP-colored.jpg (159.3 KB, 5 views)
	4xAF-perApp-colored.jpg (154.1 KB, 5 views)

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ChrisRay · June 10th, 2004, 11:16

Fivefeet, Just curious, What are you using to enable Colored Mip Maps in Ut2003? 3danalyze isnt working for me anymore.

Hmm Fivefeet, Judging from your second shot, UT2003 doesnt appear to be doing any trilinear filtering in the second shot. Not even on First Texture stage, Something is screwy, because thats straight Bilinear on all texture stages.

Nvidias Control panel Anistropic Filtering shouldnt be doing Straight Bilinear With Quality Enabled.

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WEXP · June 10th, 2004, 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisRay

Fivefeet, Just curious, What are you using to enable Colored Mip Maps in Ut2003? 3danalyze isnt working for me anymore.

Hmm Fivefeet, Judging from your second shot, UT2003 doesnt appear to be doing any trilinear filtering in the second shot. Not even on First Texture stage, Something is screwy, because thats straight Bilinear on all texture stages.

Nvidias Control panel Anistropic Filtering shouldnt be doing Straight Bilinear With Quality Enabled.

Errr? Guess I'm just picky now, but isn't that UT2004??

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ChrisRay · June 10th, 2004, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by WEXP

Errr? Guess I'm just picky now, but isn't that UT2004??

Yes thats UT2004, But I assume whatever he is using in UT2004 will work in UT2003.

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Last edited by ChrisRay; June 10th, 2004 at 12:49..

WEXP · June 10th, 2004, 12:03

Oh, in that way.

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**fivefeet8** · June 10th, 2004, 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisRay

Fivefeet, Just curious, What are you using to enable Colored Mip Maps in Ut2003? 3danalyze isnt working for me anymore.

Hmm Fivefeet, Judging from your second shot, UT2003 doesnt appear to be doing any trilinear filtering in the second shot. Not even on First Texture stage, Something is screwy, because thats straight Bilinear on all texture stages.

Nvidias Control panel Anistropic Filtering shouldnt be doing Straight Bilinear With Quality Enabled.

Ut2k3 and Ut2k4 has a console command to enable colored mips. Hit the "~" key to bring up the console, then type in "firstcoloredmip 1". You can also change the number to color which texture level you want I think. To turn off colored mip, type "firstcoloredmip" without any number.

And your right, it shouldn't be doing straight bilinear. The strange thing is, there is a performance loss with enabling colored mips in the straight bilinear shot. With the trilinear shots, there isn't. What's even stranger, is that if it is doing straight bilinear, then it should be very noticeable in movement, but I can't notice it either.

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Last edited by fivefeet8; June 10th, 2004 at 18:10..

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June 9th, 2004, 07:41	#41
Mesocyclone Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 108	[QUOTE=Katsuya]Does anybody else see what’s wrong with that sentence? ( oh jap one ) jaydawg, Take back that racist, insensitive comment. /QUOTE] Boohoo, anyway back on topic.. Its really a personal pref when it boils down to it because they both are the best at certain functions and are lacking in others.

June 9th, 2004, 09:56	#42
I-Chan Ex Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 3,093	CrishRay, may i ask you where should i look to notice the differences in the videos? I can't see any. What does 'texture shimmering' exactly mean? __________________ "I'm living in a dream I can't wake from" Core i5 2500K 3.3Ghz \| 8192 MB DDR3 1333 MHZ \| AMD Radeon HD 6950 2048 MB \| Seagate Barracuda 1.5TB SATAIII+WD Caviar 250GB SATAII \| Dell 3007WFP-HC 30"

June 10th, 2004, 11:16	#52
ChrisRay MMORPG Junkie Join Date: May 2004 Location: No Where! Posts: 1,146	Fivefeet, Just curious, What are you using to enable Colored Mip Maps in Ut2003? 3danalyze isnt working for me anymore. Hmm Fivefeet, Judging from your second shot, UT2003 doesnt appear to be doing any trilinear filtering in the second shot. Not even on First Texture stage, Something is screwy, because thats straight Bilinear on all texture stages. Nvidias Control panel Anistropic Filtering shouldnt be doing Straight Bilinear With Quality Enabled. __________________ \|CPU: Intel I7 Lynnfield @ 3.4 Ghz\|Mobo:Asus P7P55 WS Supercomputer \|Memory:8 Gigs DDR3 1333\|Video:Geforce GTX 295 Quad SLIMonitor:Samsung Syncmaster 1680x1050 3D Vision\/Olevia 27 Inch Widescreen HDTV 1920x1080 \|CPU: AMD Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.5 Ghz\|Mobo:Asus M3n HT Deluxe Nforce 780A\|Memory: 4 gigs DDR2 800\| Video: Geforce GTX 280x2 SLI Nzone SLI Forum Administrator Nvidia User Group Member

June 10th, 2004, 12:03	#55
WEXP Translator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 289	Oh, in that way. __________________