6800U and x800

[MrTeamWork]

I would wait if I were you your card is good enough for now unless you just have - HAVE to have more FPS in Half Life 2, Doom 3, Far Cry, etc...
Personally I have the same card and I am going to wait until PCI Express is standard then upgrade my entire computer. I usually do this every 3 years no matter what so next summer is upgrade time! ( 2005 )

And yes, I build the system myself and yes I am saving up my cash even this far ahead of time!

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[Clements]

Originally Posted by THG

It is more significant that in its white papers, ATI leaves one with the impression that full trilinear filtering is being offered, and calls on reviewers to switch off competitors' trilinear filtering - read GeForce 6800 - to ensure a "fairer" comparison. At the same time, they are called on to assess the image quality of the X800 by means of tests with colored mipmaps - but at that precise moment the driver provides a filter quality that is not offered in games.

This is false. X800 filters Brilinear.

Originally Posted by THG

In one of the Radeon X800 reviewer guides, ATi claims to offer full trilinear filtering and suggests using standard image quality tools with colored mipmaps to prove it - what is impossible and not true, as we know now.

The IQ of the AF in X800 is by default inferior to nVidia since you can force full trilinear in the drivers (which will work in the non-beta drivers). nVidia cards filter more. It's not a question of 'telling the difference', by definition it's worse. I'd take full tri over bri anyday.

Originally Posted by THG

"To ensure a fair comparison...." ATi suggests disabling the NVIDIA Trilinear optimization and force the GeForce 6800 Ultra to full trilinear - although the X800 is not able to do full trilinear filtering with current drivers.

ATi want their optimised AF to be compared to nVidia's full trilinear AF. This is not exactly fair when doing any benchmarks. ATi shunned nVidia for using brilinear optimisations openly, but when ATi do it in secret the fATItics say it's no big deal and 'you can't tell the difference'. I say I want full trilinear filtering which they promised in the damn first place.

ATi can't do PS 3.0 or VS 3.0. It can't use FP32 for it's Pixel shaders. It can't use trilinear filtering for AF. What else has ATi completely sacrificed in order to deliver a faster card?

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[dpence]

Originally Posted by [Clements]

This is false. X800 filters Brilinear.

Incorrect. In the colored maps or ANY map that needs full Trilinear, it gets trilinear. Tyhe object is if it does not need full, why waste the bandwidth...

Originally Posted by [Clements]

The IQ of the AF in X800 is by default inferior to nVidia since you can force full trilinear in the drivers (which will work in the non-beta drivers). nVidia cards filter more. It's not a question of 'telling the difference', by definition it's worse. I'd take full tri over bri anyday.

Again, where does it say ATI's quality is lower than that of nVidias??? The article even states that The Only way they were even able to tell ANY difference was by several labor intense tests. Gamers will not see ANY visable difference. To me that makes ATI's method 100% better.

Originally Posted by [Clements]

ATi want their optimised AF to be compared to nVidia's full trilinear AF. This is not exactly fair when doing any benchmarks. ATi shunned nVidia for using brilinear optimisations openly, but when ATi do it in secret the fATItics say it's no big deal and 'you can't tell the difference'. I say I want full trilinear filtering which they promised in the damn first place.

These are visual tests not speed tests that it was recomended for. And Besides, as far as ATI is concerned This IS full Trilinear as it IS used if needed. If there is no visual difference then what does it matter what the method used is?

Originally Posted by [Clements]

ATi can't do PS 3.0 or VS 3.0. It can't use FP32 for it's Pixel shaders. It can't use trilinear filtering for AF. What else has ATi completely sacrificed in order to deliver a faster card?

PS3.0 - nothing using it yet, VS 3.0- nothing using it yet, FP32-nothing using it yet, Trilinear for AF, Not true, it uses trilinear for the first stage and bilinear for the others and then only when you FORCE AF on, if it is application specific it will use what ever the application requests...."What else has ATi completely sacrificed in order to deliver a faster card?" the same could be said of nVidia if one really wanted to start digging.....

[jaydawg]

Check it out, if you want Super Power with ease in most games get a Nvidia 6800. ATI yes in some aspects can out do that card but Nvidia seems to be the dominent one with commercializing software. Try FFXI for instance. But seriously oh jap one **from the pics i just assumed..** anyway you shouldnt really need a new card because a 5900 isnt that far lacking off those two. Besides unless you got all kinds of cash to blow I would wait until either a. something better comes out or b. till the prices come down.

[Quark]

Originally Posted by dpence

Incorrect. In the colored maps or ANY map that needs full Trilinear, it gets trilinear. Tyhe object is if it does not need full, why waste the bandwidth...

I've seen pictures of changed IQ because of this setting. Therefore, it's NOT using full trilinear when necessary.

More to the point is the fact that Ati lied about it. They specifically told reviewers "we don't use brilinear, so it's only fair to test it with nVidia's off." I don't care if Ati's brilinear is different from nVidia's, they said they don't use it to make the benchmarks work in their favor. Why are people willing to let that slide when they burned nVidia at the stake a year ago? It's hypocritical.

[Kane]

>Again, where does it say ATI's quality is lower than that of nVidias??? The article even states that The Only way they were even able to tell ANY difference was by several labor intense tests. Gamers will not see ANY visable difference. To me that makes ATI's method 100% better.

While true that nVidia's brilinear was initialy poor when they first implemeted it, it has come on leaps and bounds since then, so saying nVidia's is 100% worse is a fallacy.

>These are visual tests not speed tests that it was recomended for. And Besides, as far as ATI is concerned This IS full Trilinear as it IS used if needed. If there is no visual difference then what does it matter what the method used is?

Full Trilinear should mean full trilinear, not 'trilinear when I feel like it'. Saying it's just as good to the casual glance does not make it full trilinear. Saying it 'does it when it needs it' does not make it full trilinear. The fact of the matter is that ATi have been harkening on about Full Trilinear and telling people to use a slower path on the nVidia cards when thier own are doing the same sort of optimisations.

>PS3.0 - nothing using it yet, VS 3.0- nothing using it yet, FP32-nothing using it yet, Trilinear for AF, Not true, it uses trilinear for the first stage and bilinear for the others and then only when you FORCE AF on, if it is application specific it will use what ever the application requests...."What else has ATi completely sacrificed in order to deliver a faster card?" the same could be said of nVidia if one really wanted to start digging.....

Remember the Voodoo 5? HW T&L? No one's using it yet, we don't need to bother. What happened? Developers lapped it up and 3dfx was left standing (of course that's not the full story, but it's a part of it).
Why pay big bucks for a card that is not full featured? Normally when you buy a big ass card you are buying it for use for a good couple of years. Take my brother for example, whenever he buys a new card, it's allways the dogs bollox top end veature packed bastard. He got an OCZ geForce 3 when they came out. Since then he hasn't bought a new card... until the 6800U he's getting soon. If he bought an x800, he'd be shafted when they do appear with PS3.0 games.

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[dpence]

Originally Posted by Kane-Sama

>Again, where does it say ATI's quality is lower than that of nVidias??? The article even states that The Only way they were even able to tell ANY difference was by several labor intense tests. Gamers will not see ANY visable difference. To me that makes ATI's method 100% better.

While true that nVidia's brilinear was initialy poor when they first implemeted it, it has come on leaps and bounds since then, so saying nVidia's is 100% worse is a fallacy.

Sorry should have been more clear I meant 100% over Full, becase full naturally induces a performance hit

Originally Posted by Kane-Sama

>These are visual tests not speed tests that it was recomended for. And Besides, as far as ATI is concerned This IS full Trilinear as it IS used if needed. If there is no visual difference then what does it matter what the method used is?

Full Trilinear should mean full trilinear, not 'trilinear when I feel like it'. Saying it's just as good to the casual glance does not make it full trilinear. Saying it 'does it when it needs it' does not make it full trilinear. The fact of the matter is that ATi have been harkening on about Full Trilinear and telling people to use a slower path on the nVidia cards when thier own are doing the same sort of optimisations.

ATI does not consider there's to be Brilinear. They consider it full Adaptive trilinear. It isn't a mixture of Bi an tri, they just simply blend less of the adjacent pixels together so you don't see any Seams, so to speak.

Originally Posted by Kane-Sama

>PS3.0 - nothing using it yet, VS 3.0- nothing using it yet, FP32-nothing using it yet, Trilinear for AF, Not true, it uses trilinear for the first stage and bilinear for the others and then only when you FORCE AF on, if it is application specific it will use what ever the application requests...."What else has ATi completely sacrificed in order to deliver a faster card?" the same could be said of nVidia if one really wanted to start digging.....

Remember the Voodoo 5? HW T&L? No one's using it yet, we don't need to bother. What happened? Developers lapped it up and 3dfx was left standing (of course that's not the full story, but it's a part of it).
Why pay big bucks for a card that is not full featured? Normally when you buy a big ass card you are buying it for use for a good couple of years. Take my brother for example, whenever he buys a new card, it's allways the dogs bollox top end veature packed bastard. He got an OCZ geForce 3 when they came out. Since then he hasn't bought a new card... until the 6800U he's getting soon. If he bought an x800, he'd be shafted when they do appear with PS3.0 games.

PS3.0 will not be an issue. ATI is quite confident in that. They ademently say ANYTHING that can be done in Ps3.0 they can do equally well in software with no performance hit. A quote from them goes something along the lines of "No thing in DirectX9.0c can be done that we can't do equally as well in software without a performance hit. Dx9c offers nothing drastically different than in Dx9b."

[Clements]

Originally Posted by dpence

Incorrect. In the colored maps or ANY map that needs full Trilinear, it gets trilinear. Tyhe object is if it does not need full, why waste the bandwidth...

Only when using coloured maps does ATi filter fully trilinearly (THG says that the X800 takes a performance hit when using coloured midmaps). In games it filters brilinearly, a mixture of trilinear and bilinear, as proved in the comparison pictures.

Originally Posted by THG

Reviewers did not notice this new ATI filtering technique because standard filter quality tests using colored mipmaps don't show this behavior. The driver switches to full trilinear whenever colored mipmaps are used.

Originally Posted by dpence

Again, where does it say ATI's quality is lower than that of nVidias??? The article even states that The Only way they were even able to tell ANY difference was by several labor intense tests. Gamers will not see ANY visable difference. To me that makes ATI's method 100% better.

+

Originally Posted by dpence

These are visual tests not speed tests that it was recomended for. And Besides, as far as ATI is concerned This IS full Trilinear as it IS used if needed. If there is no visual difference then what does it matter what the method used is?

nVidia uses full trilinear AF all the time. ATi uses an algorithm to alter the degree of trilinear and bilinear, but cannot do full trilinear all the time in games due to the driver limitations, yet shows full trilinear in the testing apps (so the optimsiation was unnoticed).

Rest assured ATi will mysteriously add a 'turn off optimisations' now that this has been discovered. Trilinear offers better filtering than bilinear. nVidia does not use bilinear anymore for AF if you turn it off in the drivers. The IQ of ATi can only really be considered worse. How could it be considered better? Since it's faster and is only degraded by a very small amount that most people won't notice? Still a degradation in my eyes - and one that no one knew about until recently. Interestingly ATi claimed to do only full trilinear, and was better than 'the competition' for having it as default. Looks like the truth is almost the opposite, with NV40 having the option of disabling optimisations, and the X800 not having it and using optimisations by default.

Originally Posted by dpence

PS3.0 - nothing using it yet, VS 3.0- nothing using it yet, FP32-nothing using it yet, Trilinear for AF, Not true, it uses trilinear for the first stage and bilinear for the others and then only when you FORCE AF on, if it is application specific it will use what ever the application requests...."What else has ATi completely sacrificed in order to deliver a faster card?" the same could be said of nVidia if one really wanted to start digging.....

nVidia cards are almost the same speed as ATi in most games with the cheats turned off, yet nVidia has lots of features over the X800. Who's to say SM3.0 won't be heavily utilised in games? They have already annonced games. ATi is really lacking in features that I'd want to make the card at least last for a while without upgrading.

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Last edited by Clements; June 5th, 2004 at 04:36..

[dpence]

Originally Posted by Quark

I've seen pictures of changed IQ because of this setting. Therefore, it's NOT using full trilinear when necessary.

Pictures?? where?? Sure if you run labor intense tests you will see a difference. But under normal circumstances you, nor reviewers nor the nVidia reps themselves, would see or notice ANY difference. and that is the whole point. Who in there right mind is going to complain about an optimization that NO one can see unless they spend hours running comparative tests???
As to it not using it when needed. It's an AI built into the driver.. it isn't perfect and is still being worked on....so naturally there can be a few times when it misses a little. You know, i bet nVidias screwes up on occasion too...hmmm...I bet thats why both ATI and nVidia continually develop their drivers....

Originally Posted by Quark

More to the point is the fact that Ati lied about it. They specifically told reviewers "we don't use brilinear, so it's only fair to test it with nVidia's off." I don't care if Ati's brilinear is different from nVidia's, they said they don't use it to make the benchmarks work in their favor. Why are people willing to let that slide when they burned nVidia at the stake a year ago? It's hypocritical.

They don't use Brilinear so how is that a LIE??? The ONLY difference between full trilinear and theirs is the fact that they adaptively use less pixels when blending the 2 maps.It is nothing like the format nVidia uses and calls Brilinear.

Burned nVidia at the stake?? For purposely altering drivers so that ONE benchmark would get higher results than it actually got??? Even if you really believe ATI lied, there is far and away a HUGE difference between using an optimization in all things, versus coding one specifically for a review....

[dpence]

Originally Posted by [Clements]

nVidia uses full trilinear AF all the time. ATI uses an algorithm to alter the degree of trilinear and bilinear, but cannot do full trilinear all the time in games due to the driver limitations, yet shows full trilinear in the testing apps (so the optimsiation was unnoticed).

Ii think you are confused about something... nVidia does NOT use Full trilinear AF all the time. You are confusing two things... AF and trilinear are not the same thing. nVidia does almost the exact same thing as ATI for AF. The only real difference is it has the ability to use Trilinear in any stage if needed. But it does not use it in ever stage. There is no point in trilinear filtering a light map stage for instance.
and in ATI's case it shows full in Some testing apps. in others it is the normal adaptive there was no visual difference so it went un-noticed. And sure it can do Full trilinear in all games, but it is a waste. Why waste the bandwidth when NO one will get a benifiet from it being used up? if there was a Visual difference , and I mean one that doesn't need hours of tests to minutely see, then yea, but there isn't....

[Clements]

Yeah I did get confused (sorry, THG just refers to it as just trilinear in places which is not completely accurate!), I meant trilinear AF where I said just trilinear. In nvidia's setup, disabling the optimisations, it provides full trilinear AF all the time (or it will do with the non-beta drivers). ATi use the adaptive filtering technique which is not full trilinear AF like nvidia's driver option, but they originally stated that it was full trilinear AF and used the coloured map progs to prove it, despite the fact it uses the algorithm in games. This is what I really should have said.

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[MrTeamWork]

Wait 6 months for the 'super ultra versions of the cards then purchase!

As for all this driver stuff of course companies try to make theirselves look the best - even if it means telling some white lies ;0

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[fivefeet8]

Keep your Ati vs Nvidia post in this thread..

http://www.ngemu.com/forums/showthre...454#post730454

And in certain situations, Ati's and Nvidia's filtering optimizations CAN be seen. Especially during movement that still screenshots do not show.

I think both are great cards. It really boils down to what features and options you want. Personally, I'm leaning more towards the 6800 because it's got the featuers I like: Super Sampling AA, Digital Vibrance, 4kx4k texture sizes(petes ogl2 very high X and Y internal res).

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Last edited by fivefeet8; June 5th, 2004 at 06:44..

[Katsuya]

Originally Posted by jaydawg

But seriously oh jap one **from the pics i just assumed..**

Does anybody else see what’s wrong with that sentence? ( oh jap one )

jaydawg, Take back that racist, insensitive comment.

Anyway, back on topic. All I have to say to NVIDIA and ATI is… I don’t like being lied to. And I’m sure most of you don’t either.

Maybe you should all wait for ATI's X800 XT Platinum graphics or Nvidia's GeForce 6900 Ultra, Before you make any final decisions.

And if anyone here has crazy money to burn. Just get an Alienware ALX system. (According to the manufacturer's website, the systems will be available on July 19. Expect to pay between $4200 and $6000 for ALX systems (without monitor). But you are guaranteed the fastest gaming system on the planet. (Thanks to the Duel CPUs and Video-cards, ect.)

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Last edited by Katsuya; June 5th, 2004 at 13:16..

[Quark]

Originally Posted by dpence

They don't use Brilinear so how is that a LIE??? The ONLY difference between full trilinear and theirs is the fact that they adaptively use less pixels (emphasis added) when blending the 2 maps.

2 + 2 = 4.

Anything not full trilinear is referred to as "brilinear", and you just admitted yourself that Ati does not do full trilinear, even when they say they use it.

[Stifmeist]

I would go for the ATI x800. i think that is the most powerfull card right now

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[Kougear]

I was thinking about getting the 6800u, but I was wodering if a 2.4ghz p4 would limit it's performance. If it would limit performance, would a 6800 GT be better?

[spajdr]

My brand new unlocked X800Pro to XT

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[ChrisRay]

ATI does not consider there's to be Brilinear. They consider it full Adaptive trilinear. It isn't a mixture of Bi an tri, they just simply blend less of the adjacent pixels together so you don't see any Seams, so to speak.

The only time ATIS anistropic Filtering enables trilinear is when color mip maps are detected, They have silver lined there optimisation by saying this. ATIs Implementation of trilinear optimisations is very similar to Nvidias.

There are differences where the Level of Detail has been toyed with. You may end up with a sharper image on the ATI Card, But trilinear filtering isnt about the sharpness of the image.

its about interpolating the transistion between mip map boundaries. The Reason the mip map boundaries are harder to see is because mip maps are inherently pushed back when Anistropic Filtering is enabled.

Incorrect. In the colored maps or ANY map that needs full Trilinear, it gets trilinear. Tyhe object is if it does not need full, why waste the bandwidth...

Several tests have shown that ATIS anistropic Filtering isnt adjusting trilinear filtering like ATI is saying. As I stated above. The level of detail is changed to help adjust for the filtering, Sharpening the Level of Detail with out sufficient filtering leads to texture shimmering.

Again, where does it say ATI's quality is lower than that of nVidias??? The article even states that The Only way they were even able to tell ANY difference was by several labor intense tests. Gamers will not see ANY visable difference. To me that makes ATI's method 100% better.

Atis Quality is only lower than Nvidias when Trilinear optimisations are disabled for Nvidia cards. The two Methods of Brilinear are fairly similar. Nvidias Method however does not adjust level of level of detail to the same degree that ATIS method does.

Gamers do see visual diferences.

I suggest you look at these videos comparing Trilinear Verses Atis Trilinear optimisations. Texture shimmering is very obvious upon the mip map boundaries.



http://grestorn.webinit.de/FarCryx800ProHiRes_Divx.avi

X800 Pro with Trilinear optimisations.


http://grestorn.webinit.de/FarCry9700ProHiRes_Divx.avi

9700 Pro without Trilinear optimisations. Very obvious differences.


More results.

http://www.gaeugf.ch/ted/mp2_AF_op_off.avi

(trilinear Optimisations)


http://www.gaeugf.ch/ted/mp2_AF_op_on.avi

(trilinear optimisations disabled)


I hope this information better helps people understand what trilinear/bilinear anistropic filtering does. There are differences.

There are also differences between the Nvidia and ATI do there bit components for Anistropic Filtering. ATi does its isotropic filtering in 5 bit components while Nvidia does it in 8 bit. 8 Bit Istropic Filtering is strongly reccomended by SGI for OpenGL compliance.

Ii think you are confused about something... nVidia does NOT use Full trilinear AF all the time. You are confusing two things... AF and trilinear are not the same thing. nVidia does almost the exact same thing as ATI for AF. The only real difference is it has the ability to use Trilinear in any stage if needed. But it does not use it in ever stage. There is no point in trilinear filtering a light map stage for instance.
and in ATI's case it shows full in Some testing apps. in others it is the normal adaptive there was no visual difference so it went un-noticed. And sure it can do Full trilinear in all games, but it is a waste. Why waste the bandwidth when NO one will get a benifiet from it being used up? if there was a Visual difference , and I mean one that doesn't need hours of tests to minutely see, then yea, but there isn't....

Nvidia Control Panel Does Trilinear on all stages, The difference is there are texture stage optimisations. Take the Geforce FX series in mind. On Texture Stage 0 full 8x Anistropic Filtering is enabled in DirectX. On texture Stages 1-7 2x is enabled.

With Trilinear Optimisations enabled. The Level of "brilinear" decreases as you fall back on further texture stages. If you disable trilinear filtering. Texture Stages 1-7 still only recieve 2x Anistropic Filtering. However they recieve full trilinear filtering through each texture stage.

[fivefeet8]

Originally Posted by ChrisRay

Nvidia Control Panel Does Trilinear on all stages, The difference is there are texture stage optimisations. Take the Geforce FX series in mind. On Texture Stage 0 full 8x Anistropic Filtering is enabled in DirectX. On texture Stages 1-7 2x is enabled.

With Trilinear Optimisations enabled. The Level of "brilinear" decreases as you fall back on further texture stages. If you disable trilinear filtering. Texture Stages 1-7 still only recieve 2x Anistropic Filtering. However they recieve full trilinear filtering through each texture stage.

I think older drivers do that. I've been using the new beta forcewares 61.32 and per CP af settings do not use Trilinear or Brilinear filtering on all texture stages. Only the first texture stage gets Tri or Bri filtering. The rest gets straight Bilinear. However, when you use per application AF, Trilinear or Brilinear is applied to all stages.

I'm also not seeing the texture stage AF optimizations anymore. When using 8xAF through cp or per app, all the stages seem to be getting 8xAF. Maybe the AF tester isn't catching the optimization? It does catch the texture stage filtering optimizations though.

Here are a few shots with d3dAFtester.
1st shot: 8xAF per app-tri opts off, texture stage 0
2nd shot: 8xAF per app-tri opts off, texture stage 1
3rd shot: 8xAF per CP-tri opts off, texture stage 0
4th shot: 8xAF per CP-tri opts off, texture stage 1
5th shot: 8xAF per CP-tri opts on, texture stage 0, all other stages looks exactly the same as the 4th shot.

Attached Images

	D3DAFTester13a 2004-06-08 23-16-49-09.jpg (64.4 KB, 5 views)
	D3DAFTester13a 2004-06-08 23-16-55-85.jpg (64.4 KB, 4 views)
	D3DAFTester13a 2004-06-08 23-17-31-42.jpg (64.4 KB, 2 views)
	D3DAFTester13a 2004-06-08 23-17-38-84.jpg (68.7 KB, 4 views)
	D3DAFTester13a 2004-06-08 23-24-33-28.jpg (63.2 KB, 3 views)

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