Windows 8 discussion

[@ruantec]

Still it does look sexier and smoother than the iPhon... i mean bigger iPhon... oh, wait... iPad

Remember.... battery life is not an issue for me.

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Last edited by @ruantec; May 22nd, 2012 at 08:11..

[runawayprisoner]

It is an issue for everyone else, my dear friend. Otherwise the iPad wouldn't have been sold like it was.

Not everyone likes to plug their thin and light tablet device in every time they use it.

[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

It is an issue for everyone else, my dear friend. Otherwise the iPad wouldn't have been sold like it was.

No, i believe the reason for the success is because Windows 7 isn't tablet friendly and Android is laggy plus Android tablets focused too much into copying Apple. In other words there was no real competition.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

Not everyone likes to plug their thin and light tablet device in every time they use it.

If that were the case notebooks/laptops wouldn't be so popular nowdays. For instance my wife recently switched from tablets to real laptops because they are so limited(including the iPad).

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by @ruantec

No, i believe the reason for the success is because Windows 7 isn't tablet friendly and Android is laggy plus Android tablets focused too much into copying Apple. In other words there was no real competition.

You saying people prefer iPads to Kindles for reading? (10Hr battery life vs 2 weeks of battery life)

And also nobody bought netbooks because they were excruciatingly slow even though they had 7-10 hours of battery life, right?

There's the answer.

If that were the case notebooks/laptops wouldn't be so popular nowdays. For instance my wife recently switched from tablets to real laptops because they are so limited(including the iPad).

Laptops are different from tablets, though. You don't hold a laptop in one hand and try to read the next great novel on it while commuting on a train, nor do you want to do something as silly as using your laptop for turn-by-turn navigation while driving.

Point is, the use cases for a tablet makes it an easier target for battery consumption, and though the users themselves may not realize it, they almost always end up using a tablet more, just because it's easier to deal with than a big hulking laptop.

If someone wants power, though, I don't disagree that laptops are the way to go. But here is another thing: some high-end popular laptops do get good tablet-like battery life.

Take... MacBook Pros for instance. Mine does last through 10 hours of continuous coding and web browsing. Real 10 hours. Complete with Flash videos and such. That's a far cry from most Windows laptops.

[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

You saying people prefer iPads to Kindles for reading? (10Hr battery life vs 2 weeks of battery life)

No, what i meant is that i'm sure people won't care about battery life as long as they get what they need... in most of the cases is what a laptop has to offer rather than a bigger phone with bigger screen called tablet.

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[Lasnap]

Yeah a laptop does have an advantage when you use it for productivity but a tablet I dont count as being productive I count it as a media consumption device and that I what I use it for if I wanna be productive I use my desktop.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by @ruantec

No, what i meant is that i'm sure people won't care about battery life as long as they get what they need... in most of the cases is what a laptop has to offer rather than a bigger phone with bigger screen called tablet.

Well, again, I tend to agree with you on a personal level that laptop is preferable in "some" cases.

But I don't think you can say "most cases" due to iPad sales poking through the roof and the iPad getting increasingly more useful for some professions. Millions of people would disagree with you and me.

I personally think that before long, only tech specialists would ever need or want laptops. The trend is already obvious: people want iPad. That's why Microsoft refuses to implement Windows 8 as anything but a tablet OS.

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

You can say most cases. Now perhaps it's gaining professional credibility but originally people only bought it because they saw it as a shiny new toy or because of the hype. If people needed something more than a toy but still required a portability then a laptop of some sort (including the MacBook I guess) would have been their go-to device, not the iPad.

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[runawayprisoner]

You really can't say that it's hype after 3 years. If it was just that, then it would have ended after the first year.

And it's not "most cases" because laptop sales are actually not comparable to iPad sales. If you include the iPad as a mobile computer in the same category as laptops, then Apple alone holds 63% of the entire mobile computer market. That's pretty insane for a single company.

http://www.displaysearch.com/cps/rde...ent_growth.asp

It's kinda hard to believe or see, really, but... I think you have to understand that not everyone needs to fall back to a laptop all the time. It's possible that that'll happen, but it's not happening that regularly.

[@ruantec]

I personally believe is a hype as everything right now is about "touch" hence why they are so popular. After 3 years it can still be considered hype... in fact Apple is starting to lose a bit of the cake in the phone sector against Samsung as the new samsung flagship shows but they are still holding the title in the tablet sector... the question is... for how long??? after the "touch" hype vanish we will see the Apple getting its worm once again

I understand your point of view but don't forget you're putting your bet in a company that may be big right now but not long ago was just a sort ignored "known" company somewhere in USA with ultra expensive old hardware. Take Sony as an example... after holding the title for several years they turned into the flop of this console generation.

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[runawayprisoner]

It's been 6 years into the "touch hype", actually. Starting 2007 until now.

Sony failed in the same span of time (2000 - 2005), so if Apple were to fail, then they are failing much later than Sony. And the major difference between Apple and Sony is that... Sony didn't make a new game console every year. Apple make at least one new device every year.

Will they fail? I won't say that it's impossible. But certainly not right now. They are the current market leader, and I think it's unfair to say that their stuffs are doomed just because you don't like them.

Nobody would say the PS2 sucked even though the PS3 flopped, right? So the same logic applies. Whatever new product Apple pushes out that may suck still won't take away the fact that the iPad (up to third generation) have been awesome.

It's not rocket science, really. These things do have some great impact on the industry. Contrary to what you and Schumi believe in, I see only huge companies like Microsoft scrambling to create competition for the iPad. If it was so insignificant, then I'd think Microsoft wouldn't have attempted the abomination that is the Metro interface and other such consumer touch-oriented features in Win 8.

Again, like I kept saying, Microsoft has been working on touch in Windows for a long time. Probably even longer than Apple. The difference is, though, that Microsoft always focused on the professional side of it. That they are now derivating and "degrading" themselves into the consumer space with regards to some of the features is a worrying sign.

If you think the iPad is hype, then me thinks Microsoft, your favorite company, bought into that hype the worst.

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Last edited by runawayprisoner; May 24th, 2012 at 13:08..

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Well what I meant with hype is that you still get uneducated people who buy an iPad not based on their own research of what they want out of such a device but purely because of it's hype. For instance my cousin bought my Godfather an iPhone because he thought that my GodFather would struggle least with one of those. So now my GodFather has an iPhone and no clue what else is out there. He'll probably buy another when the time comes. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Droids and Windows devices however don't have the same benefit, they don't generate the same hype. They're only chosen by people who know what's out there and don't want an i-device or who are persuaded by price and features of another device. Granted this will change a bit as the uneducated Nokia faithful end up with Windows phones, but not much.


It's a bit like Diablo 3...how many people bought the game purely based on that one single game as a stand-alone package having to generate it's own merit VS how many bought it due to it's heritage and/or the fact all their friends would be playing it and they'd feel left out and awkward without joining in?

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Last edited by SCHUMI_4EVER; May 24th, 2012 at 14:08..

[Xblade]

Apple does with Iphone/Ipad what Activision does with Call of Duty, the difference being the Ipad/Iphone's specs are improving.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

Well what I meant with hype is that you still get uneducated people who buy an iPad not based on their own research of what they want out of such a device but purely because of it's hype. For instance my cousin bought my Godfather an iPhone because he thought that my GodFather would struggle least with one of those. So now my GodFather has an iPhone and no clue what else is out there. He'll probably buy another when the time comes. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Droids and Windows devices however don't have the same benefit, they don't generate the same hype. They're only chosen by people who know what's out there and don't want an i-device or who are persuaded by price and features of another device. Granted this will change a bit as the uneducated Nokia faithful end up with Windows phones, but not much.


It's a bit like Diablo 3...how many people bought the game purely based on that one single game as a stand-alone package having to generate it's own merit VS how many bought it due to it's heritage and/or the fact all their friends would be playing it and they'd feel left out and awkward without joining in?

You mean "hype" as in "brand image"? Because "hype" by definition means either of the following:

1) Excite, stimulate, or agitate
2) To create interest by flamboyant or dramatic methods
3) To intensify (advertise, promote) by ingenious or questionable claims or methods
4) To trick or gull

Of all those, the first definition is the closest to what Apple "may" be trying to do to the iOS ecosystem, but the rest is very far from what they have done, at least in terms of advertising.

In fact, Apple's advertisements of iOS devices are factual and usually very simplistic. The only thing that may be outlandish is their choice of words, but I don't think you can "class" their choice of words as being questionable considering the actual position of their devices on the market.

I think what you are referring to in this case is more like "brand image", but... think of it this way: would you say BMW cars are the same thing as Toyota and therefore should cost the same? No? Then it's the same with Apple.

Regarding Android, it's very far from the truth if you think people choose them because they don't know about an iDevice. Take the US, for instance. You walk into any carrier store, or in fact, you just sit at a friggin' bus stop and you see a huge sign of Verizon promoting their Android phones. In fact, aside from very few Apple banners along the highway to San Francisco, most of what you'll see in banners, movies, advertisements, etc... around are Android devices.

But you see FAR (edit: by the way, when I say "far" here, it literally means that where I live, you can see at least 1 iPhone out of... every 3 or 4 people. Yeah. iPhone. And it's either a 4 or 4S ) more regular people holding iDevices. That's the difference. It's not Apple's advertisement that's drumming up the excitement. It's the fact that people do actually use these devices on a regular basis that drums up the excitement.

Regardless, it's been 3 years. I can agree with you in the first 2 years that maybe people bought the iPad because of "hype" or for whatever reason, but seriously, 3 years, and still... tens of millions of devices sold (in 3 months) is a bit much unless you are saying there are millions of people out there who have $500+ to throw away at any random moment.

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Last edited by runawayprisoner; May 24th, 2012 at 16:51..

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

You mean "hype" as in "brand image"? Because "hype" by definition means either of the following:

1) Excite, stimulate, or agitate
2) To create interest by flamboyant or dramatic methods
3) To intensify (advertise, promote) by ingenious or questionable claims or methods
4) To trick or gull

Of all those, the first definition is the closest to what Apple "may" be trying to do to the iOS ecosystem, but the rest is very far from what they have done, at least in terms of advertising.

In fact, Apple's advertisements of iOS devices are factual and usually very simplistic. The only thing that may be outlandish is their choice of words, but I don't think you can "class" their choice of words as being questionable considering the actual position of their devices on the market.

I think what you are referring to in this case is more like "brand image", but... think of it this way: would you say BMW cars are the same thing as Toyota and therefore should cost the same? No? Then it's the same with Apple.

Regarding Android, it's very far from the truth if you think people choose them because they don't know about an iDevice. Take the US, for instance. You walk into any carrier store, or in fact, you just sit at a friggin' bus stop and you see a huge sign of Verizon promoting their Android phones. In fact, aside from very few Apple banners along the highway to San Francisco, most of what you'll see in banners, movies, advertisements, etc... around are Android devices.

But you see FAR more regular people holding iDevices. That's the difference. It's not Apple's advertisement that's drumming up the excitement. It's the fact that people do actually use these devices on a regular basis that drums up the excitement.

Regardless, it's been 3 years. I can agree with you in the first 2 years that maybe people bought the iPad because of "hype" or for whatever reason, but seriously, 3 years, and still... tens of millions of devices sold (in 3 months) is a bit much unless you are saying there are millions of people out there who have $500+ to throw away at any random moment.

Well perhaps hype isn't the right word but brand image doesn't quite fit either. Over-inflation of an item's superiority and popularity is what I meant. Hype in gaming at least even if it's not the official definition often basically means huge expectancy that something is going to be awesome, huge expectancy with little basis from the product's own merits but usually instead based on past products or some other occurrence and that's how I meant it. Surely you know some games that got completely overhyped and then fell short? Well that's kind of what I mean for i-devices. However the bubble in this case seems is virtually bulletproof and thus there's no falling short and it just keeps on growing.
And the bubble is a vicious cycle making the number of years irrelevant.

Basically what I'm getting at is that looking at current devices there's absolutely no reason for Apple's dominance, it all stems from the past how unchallenged they stood back then and the eco-system they were able to set up then and has grown to the point where it doesn't even need any feeding on Apple's part.

Or again a different way of looking at it would be let's say the past didn't exist, we jumped straight from Apple being near irrelevant to non-professionals to where we are now with much closer competition eliminating the time they stood unchallenged...can you honestly tell me their dominance would be as great? Hence hype.
And if you say yes because their apps suck a lot less then remember that looking at it this way we would have jumped straight from the pre-appstore days to now with a full-fledged Google Play as competitor so appmakers would have had equally viable choices rather than having to move on from java with the only option being moving on to the future with iOS or wasting their time on Ovi.

The only other device company with anywhere near as much blind brand loyalty and hype is Nokia. All others have a steep uphill battle to fight regardless of any performance or capability edge they may gain.

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[Lasnap]

Hmm it would seem to me that some of the posts here could easily be moved over to the smartphone/tablet post as we seem to have gotten off topic a bit with this thread.

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[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Except we haven't since Windows 8 has revealed itself to be a glorified tablet OS rather than the Windows I originally thought we'd be discussing in this thread.

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Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

!!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

[@ruantec]

I personally welcome Windows 8 on tablets after all what do we need more??? Windows 7 is just perfect and if something is missed i will hope to get a service pack

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[KrossX]

Hopefully the new explorer with the nice copy thing and the taskmanager can be ported back easily to 7. With some unofficial pack or something.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

Basically what I'm getting at is that looking at current devices there's absolutely no reason for Apple's dominance, it all stems from the past how unchallenged they stood back then and the eco-system they were able to set up then and has grown to the point where it doesn't even need any feeding on Apple's part.

Well, while I agree their devices have limitations, I think they still have a legitimate reason to be dominant.

Say, take Flash for instance. Microsoft will have to bundle it with IE10 in Windows 8, but Apple refuses to allow it on the iPad, and as a result, now a large number of websites serve direct h.264 MP4 containers to the iPad instead. What that means is that on any random page with a video clip, the iPad is going to run a HELL (as in almost 10x) of a lot faster and smoother than any comparable $500 laptop, simply because there is no overhead.

I'm actually still having beef with the fact that aside from the iPad, iPod Touch and iPhone, no other device on the market gets that treatment. Zip. Nada. Not even the Macs. Everything else has to run Flash.

That's why Apple's iOS devices are dominant. The developer and web support is immense. It's not because Apple is over-inflating the image of the device but rather because everyone (developers) is playing favoritism.

Also take Netflix for instance. The Windows and Mac version relies heavily on Silverlight, which means... no hardware acceleration. It's pure CPU brutality. On iPad and iPhone? You get a native application that serves native h.264 MP4 container that runs super smooth with zero overhead.

On a side note, I mentioned Microsoft bundling Flash with IE10, right? Well, apparently, that was just announced recently, and I have no doubt that that's due to Microsoft being unable to gain web developers' support to serve direct h.264 MP4 containers to IE10 like on the iPad.

But regardless of why there is such a favoritism, I think that's the advantage of the iPad over other devices, that it has a huge developer base that's always willing to move to Apple's every whim. Without developers, I don't think the iPad would be where it is today.

But then, that's the exact other problem that all other tablets and mobile devices (Android, WebOS, RIM's QNX, Windows Phone) are facing in their uphill battle against the iPhone. On one hand, they don't get the "brand image", and on the other, they don't get enough support. It's not just because nobody is buying them.

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Last edited by runawayprisoner; May 24th, 2012 at 23:19..