A Better Way to emulate

[Spirrwell]

This idea seems like a longshot to me, and I'm not 100% sure I should post this here. I know that emulation of the PS2 needs for us to have extracted a PS2 bios from our PS2s, and run the emulator with audio and video plugins suitable for it. Could the bios be manipulated enough to be able to run on computers, eliminating the need for 100x the original processing power? (At least I think it is 100x) I know this would leave a lot more room for hardware compatibility issues, but it'd be worth it, and it would make PS3 emulation possible now. Being somewhat of a programmer myself, I would think that this is possible, but might take a couple years of work to do it or even figure out how to do it. Has this ever been considered or is there a legal issue involved in this?

[Hard core Rikki]

PCSX2 can already translate the instructions from the PS2 BIOS, so HLE-ing would not provide any better compatibility. Typically, it would even decrease it. The overhead from just running the BIOS isnt significant enough for a different approach to make it any notably faster.

Use of a regular console BIOS rather than HLE-ing its functionalty provides many benefits, especially for not needing to recreate the wheel unnecessarily. It would be noticeable also if netplay is used (console unique identifiers).
For ethical purposes, and even if HLE BIOSes were available, ownership of the real console is still advised. If at least to use it if the emu doesnt perform well enough, for example (more reason to have or keep the console around: no complaining about trivialties or bugging devs. If too desperate to play, just use the real console).

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[Spirrwell]

Originally Posted by Hard core Rikki

PCSX2 can already translate the instructions from the PS2 BIOS, so HLE-ing would not provide any better compatibility. Typically, it would even decrease it. The overhead from just running the BIOS isnt significant enough for a different approach to make it any notably faster.

Use of a regular console BIOS rather than HLE-ing its functionalty provides many benefits, especially for not needing to recreate the wheel unnecessarily. It would be noticeable also if netplay is used (console unique identifiers).
For ethical purposes, and even if HLE BIOSes were available, ownership of the real console is still advised. If at least to use it if the emu doesnt perform well enough, for example (more reason to have or keep the console around: no complaining about trivialties or bugging devs. If too desperate to play, just use the real console).

Hmm I'm a bit confused, I'm talking about replacing the bios of the motherboard in my computer with the PS2 bios to make it dedicated to playing PS2 games. That would make the computer PS2 of course there may not be the need of editing the bios so long as there is a boot loader that can load the bios or the bios currently in the motherboard. Or have a switch that can be put in the computer with bios banks like on an Xecuter chip for regular Xbox. If I copied everything from my PS2 to my computer to make it my PS2 why wouldn't it run just like it would if it were a PS2?

[Hard core Rikki]

The purpose of a BIOS is to translate instructions (2 ways) for a known piece of hardware to be able to interpret it. Same as for the PC really, except emulating a PS2 BIOS still requires some overhead both for its emulating and instruction translating.

I'm talking about replacing the bios of the motherboard in my computer with the PS2 bios to make it dedicated to playing PS2 games.

That would not work, as a PS2 BIOS will require PS2 hardware (its specific motherboard model, ram, network adapter...) to work the way you suggest, and it would not be any different from using a PS2. Those can be emulated/spoofed at best, but will still require instruction translation from the BIOS.

Note that 'replacing' a PC motherboard's BIOS will render it unable to work (it will not even boot), much less being capable of executing the translated instructions from the emulated PS2 BIOS. This is due to that PC hardware still has to communicate with the motherboard's BIOS. The PS2's BIOS is not designed to run with PC hardware.

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[Spirrwell]

That's why I was talking about editing the bios, if the bios was edited to recognize different hardware for different computers, and be made to work with specific computer motherboards, wouldn't work? I would think so, as I've come across that problem when I tried turning my computer into a Mac. There were MANY compatibility issues with hardware, but many people made releases with drivers and such capable of running those pieces of hardware. There is also the possibility of running the bios as an operating system too.

[Hard core Rikki]

The mac situation is completely different. Mac BIOSes were simply designed in a way specifically so as to not be able to run on PC hardware, even though they technically should've been capable of that.

Tampering with BIOSes affects the way hardware interacts with the OS. During emulation, the OS you use still has to be able to run properly (as in, run all instructions called). Thats before even the emulating process, where instruction translation takes take of having PS2-specific code run on a machine supposed to run 'PC code'.
That tamper-free requirement still stands for PS2 BIOSes, as one such can have a very unpredictable impact on emulation, and for all we know, could simply have your computer bl0w into smithereens.

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[Spirrwell]

Hahaha, me I'm a risk taker, I'm willing to try anything to make it work perfectly.

[Hard core Rikki]

The furthest that approach could go is to run pcsx2 close to normally, only within a very slimmed os. There should still be all sorts of issues, and it would not run even close to as it does under a normal pc/windows environment, nevermind anywhere as compatible. Note that slimmed or bloated OSes are not the reason of possibly slow emulation (popular myth).

A very compacted XP base would be the furthest you could get, and it would still not perform as reliably or similarly. A linux-based solution could be flashed, but I don't believe a windows one could.

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[Spirrwell]

Linux isn't that bad. It's definitely a lot more able to do things than Windows can if you're smart enough to use it.

[nanaya]

I'm not a technical guy so don't quote me on this but afaik :

PC and PS2 architecture is vastly different, every part of PS2 need to be emulated. Even with high level programming this is a complicated process and you're expecting it to be feasible to code if we strip all those layers off and start in hardware level?

[Spirrwell]

Originally Posted by nanaya

I'm not a technical guy so don't quote me on this but afaik :

PC and PS2 architecture is vastly different, every part of PS2 need to be emulated. Even with high level programming this is a complicated process and you're expecting it to be feasible to code if we strip all those layers off and start in hardware level?

It may not be feasible at first, but it may help to learn what certain things are done when the bios comes on and goes to work. It could be a way to help with future emulation using an OS, or it could help creating a computer that is just a PS2 when it boots up into the PS2 bios and just a computer when it boots into the computer bios. This can be done, as a matter of fact you can have multiple bios banks on a motherboard, of course there would probably have to be a piece of hardware soldered onto the motherboard itself in order to make it work. I find this a convenience with laptops. So that way if I'm outside or something, I can easily use my Windows, Linux or whatever, then take a controller, plug it in, and restart my computer into PS2 mode. The PS2 emulator doesn't take too much of the battery I use on my computer alone. So turning into a PS2 would slim it down too and wouldn't take as much battery life. I'm probably thinking a bit too far on this, but it would be cool to test out, and I once I completely learn about programming with C++, Python, Java, and other programming languages, I am going to attempt this myself if it isn't already done, although I don't have a team so it could take ten years alone and by that time we could have 320 GHz processors, but still I would love to test this idea out and work on it to its full potential no matter what the cost, even if it destroys my computers, I'll buy new motherboards, processors, whatever it takes to make it work.

[Hard core Rikki]

To reiterate the main point: this is not feasible. The very best you would come up with is to still have it run as designed: as a program, inside a running OS. Just like everyone already does currently.
If having other processes like an antivirus actually slows down your experience, it would be better to use speed hacks, or upgrade your ram/cpu/gpu.
A slimmed down OS will not yield an improvement because bloat is not the issue.

A better understanding of the PS2 will not change how PC hardware or computing works.
Without actual PC hardware/motherboard/BIOS, nothing will run on it, much less an emulator.

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[Spirrwell]

Originally Posted by Hard core Rikki

To reiterate the main point: this is not feasible. The very best you would come up with is to still have it run as designed: as a program, inside a running OS. Just like everyone already does currently. A better understanding of the PS2 will not change how PC hardware or computing works.

Without actual PC hardware/motherboard/BIOS, nothing will run on it, much less an emulator.

Yes, but we could change how the PS2 itself works.

[Hard core Rikki]

I doubt any emulation could happen on PC hardware that was deliberately damaged to the point it wont execute code, just the same as Skype wont be possible to run on a piece of wood.

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[PsyMan]

Originally Posted by Spirrwell

Could the bios be manipulated enough to be able to run on computers, eliminating the need for 100x the original processing power?

Simple answer: No.


Less simple answer:

The reason is simple. A BIOS is no different than a game when it comes to the actual code. The Playstation 2 BIOS is a MIPS application. The Playstation 2 games are also MIPS applications.

What you want to do is to convert a Playstation 2 BIOS (MIPS) into a PC (x86 or even x64) BIOS.
The problem here is that even if you do that, the games you will want to run will still be MIPS applications, that will have to also be converted into x86 (or x64) applications.

Worthy to note here is that PCSX2 as well as other emulators already work by converting applications from one architecture (MIPS on the case of PCSX2) to another architecture (x86 on the case of PCSX2) on the fly through a technique known as dynamic recompilation.

The difference between your approach and the approach of PCSX2 is that PCSX2 "manipulates" the BIOS and almost every other program you feed it on the fly, while you will have to do it for every different application separately from scratch.


So, that's it.



PS: the MIPS, x86 and x64 things I mentioned are CPU architectures. Your Intel or AMD CPU is based on the x86 architecture (and probably x64 too) while the Playstation 2 CPU is based on the MIPS architecture.

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Last edited by PsyMan; July 20th, 2010 at 19:39..

[nanaya]

Well... All I can say is good luck in finding individuals willing to top the monumental task needed to accomplish your..."dream".

Just remember that Windows, Linux, Directx, Opengl and all the underlying technology needed to make pcsx2 possible didn't happen overnight and nurtured on years of collaborated expertise.

[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by Spirrwell

That's why I was talking about editing the bios, if the bios was edited to recognize different hardware for different computers, and be made to work with specific computer motherboards, wouldn't work? I would think so, as I've come across that problem when I tried turning my computer into a Mac. There were MANY compatibility issues with hardware, but many people made releases with drivers and such capable of running those pieces of hardware. There is also the possibility of running the bios as an operating system too.

mmmmm do you have actually an idea of what you're talking about???? i said so because after reading that post of yours am really unsure. there is no magical way of changing bios and its going to recognize your PC hardware and use it as things have to be done quite different. in the case of OSX the entire OS is fully compatible with PC the reason why it doesn't work is because Apple is retarded enough to prevent it just because they want you to buy one of there super-expensive machines that's all.

in the case of consoles its a whole different story.

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Last edited by @ruantec; July 20th, 2010 at 22:02..

[rama2]

These threads are always fun. Bring on EmuOS!

[Geralt Of Rivia]

Originally Posted by Hard core Rikki

I doubt any emulation could happen on PC hardware that was deliberately damaged to the point it wont execute code, just the same as Skype wont be possible to run on a piece of wood.

Hahahahahahaha ! Brilliant ! Hey we should make Winamp run on fried eggs too
EmuOS ! This OS actually knows all the hardware that will be used in the next ten years for all future consoles.
It's not only an OS but also an ORACLE! Designed with the help of Paul, the Octopus.

[StriderVM]

The best way I can say it is just, well, you can't make an apple imitate an pineapple, it basically won't work...... Although it has both an "apple" in the end.

I'm getting your point, although by technicality, it's kind of possible to make a sort an OS that is a 100% duplicate of the PS2/PS3, you still need the hardware....

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