Shooting Rampage at Dark Knight Rises Showing in Colo.; 12 Dead

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

To be fair the daily shootings you mention are old-fashioned muggings or murder where the media has little to no effect. The ones that make it onto the news as big news are those where no illegal enrichment scheme was taking place.

Those daily shootings don't occur because the individuals were over-exposed to too many violent movies, they occur because somebody wants some stuff without paying for it.

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Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

To be fair the daily shootings you mention are old-fashioned muggings or murder where the media has little to no effect. The ones that make it onto the news as big news are those where no illegal enrichment scheme was taking place.

Those daily shootings don't occur because the individuals were over-exposed to too many violent movies, they occur because somebody wants some stuff without paying for it.

It's mostly criminals and thugs, but good point.

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[Dcollins85]

I strongly believe that had the theater had a right to conceal a carried weapon on the premises that there would have been a shorter outcome to this. He might of still hurt or killed some people, but he'd of been taken out by a responsible gun carrying individual, and he might not of even attempted it in Colorado if he knew other people had guns.

That's 1/2 the problem, the reason for the 2nd Amendment is for people to protect themselves. And limiting or even restricting citizens from acquiring guns the legal way won't put a stop to criminals obtaining guns illegitimately.

If you go about the route of disarming responsible citizens you have to think about people who need guns for protection. For example people in Alaska NEED a gun because there are so many bears up there. You going to fight a bear with a knife? What about woman who were raped or don't want to be raped? Sure Mace, a Tazer or a knife are nice... but it's no where as efficient at stopping an attacker. And if you take the guns away from private citizens what about the animal population? You're going to have a lot more deer all of a sudden and that's going to mean a heck of a lot more automotive accidents involving deer.

And I find it sadly ironic how this "tragedy" happens 7 days before Obama signs a document at the United Nations that would put a gun ban in America.

No gun ever woke up and decided it was going to shoot 12 people.

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[Strike105X]

Besides what has already been said i also think that media such as games and movies has little to nothing to do with crimes, crime, rape, murder this have been with us since the dawn of man, its only that then we accepted it was the people that where fu... up, now we blame it on whatever we can, like Chriss Rock said whatever happened to crazy ?



Although funny, and its more towards kids but there's a lot of truth to that and not just related to kids.

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[jonc2006]

i think this one boils down to someone who just stopped giving a ****.

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[Kaizen]

Originally Posted by Dcollins85

I strongly believe that had the theater had a right to conceal a carried weapon on the premises that there would have been a shorter outcome to this. He might of still hurt or killed some people, but he'd of been taken out by a responsible gun carrying individual, and he might not of even attempted it in Colorado if he knew other people had guns.

That's 1/2 the problem, the reason for the 2nd Amendment is for people to protect themselves. And limiting or even restricting citizens from acquiring guns the legal way won't put a stop to criminals obtaining guns illegitimately.

If you go about the route of disarming responsible citizens you have to think about people who need guns for protection. For example people in Alaska NEED a gun because there are so many bears up there. You going to fight a bear with a knife? What about woman who were raped or don't want to be raped? Sure Mace, a Tazer or a knife are nice... but it's no where as efficient at stopping an attacker. And if you take the guns away from private citizens what about the animal population? You're going to have a lot more deer all of a sudden and that's going to mean a heck of a lot more automotive accidents involving deer.

And I find it sadly ironic how this "tragedy" happens 7 days before Obama signs a document at the United Nations that would put a gun ban in America.

No gun ever woke up and decided it was going to shoot 12 people.

I imagine it differently.

Gunman starts shooting everyone, someone shoots back, eveyone is confused who the shooter is, 20 /k/ g.i.joe fans start all shooting each other.
1 gunman turns into a couple of gunmen with 80 iq's all wanting to be a hero shooting each other.

How about if there were no guns? I don't remember the last shootout over here ..because nobody has guns.

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[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Someone will always have a gun.
But I agree with you, that's a very possible outcome.

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[Dcollins85]

No guns? What if there were no guns when the British invaded the colonist?

Attached Images

523799_480008402028382_183961146_n.jpg (71.9 KB, 21 views)

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There's something majestic about sliding that shifter into first, having the back tires grip the ground, the tires peel back and shoot off like a rubber band zipping you along, your car rising off the ground, you cant make out what's going past you, you just know... I'm going fast... And no... You're Ricer can't do this.

Impact of words are not measured in count of post.

[Thanakil]

That picture compare those two stories as being "similar"? Really?

The shooter never planned to take it easy and didn't care about his own life. The robbers on the other hand weren't planning to kill people, simply to get away with money.

That's a HUGE DIFFERENCE. On one hand you have robbers caring about their lives and simply looking for money. On the other you have a guy with only one mission : killing people.
Had the robbers had the same mentality, the result would have been different.

It's such a ****ty comparison.

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[Dcollins85]

It was the easiest to find with little research. I've never heard of other large scale theater shootings.

Set aside, guns aren't to blame for the shooting, they were merely a tool.

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Impact of words are not measured in count of post.

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Dude a internet cafe is a relatively small well lit place...a theater is almost the direct opposite being a dark much larger place where not everyone is on the same level and a giant screen is attracting everyone's attention. The outcome would have been like Kaizen said had there been more guns.

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[Kaizen]

Originally Posted by Dcollins85

It was the easiest to find with little research. I've never heard of other large scale theater shootings.

Set aside, guns aren't to blame for the shooting, they were merely a tool.

Guns aren't to blame for shooting, they are a tool. A tool that only people who intend to harm others would use.

If you buy a gun in the pretence that it's for self defence, you are stating you think and feel it's within your right to kill people if you think you can justify it.
These people doing the shootings think they can justify it too, how are pro gun owners different?

All these school/mall/theater shootings are nearly always the activities of rejected socially inept teenagers too.
Outlaw guns and the only nefarious channels to obtain an illegal firearm would be ones that such people would be too cowardly to engage in.
I can not imagine aspergic cowards approaching dangerous backstreet gangs to buy guns.

Spoiler:

I've been working on debating a bit more, it's effective to avoid points and spin the critiques of hypocrisy on the first refuser.
Fight logical retardation of development with a block.

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[TastEPlasma]

To provide a counter opinion, I submit my own personal stance on killing and the value of life.

I would, absolutely, take another persons life without hesitation in the defense of myself, family, and immediate friends in a situation where their life was in danger and my action would save them while my inaction would allow them to be seriously injured or killed.

Perhaps it is a justification, in the vein of tribalism, but it is one I adhere to readily. In those situations I would make a judgement call that would allow me to see their existence as devalued to that of a rabid animal, and I would permanently end them.

I am incredibly grateful to have lived a life in a society where I have never been once confronted with that situation. I sincerely hope I can make that statement again on the day I expire from old age/disease/meteorites.

To the point, I own a firearm, and I indeed purchased it for self defense. I never carry it on me. It is strictly for the two (unlikely) scenarios of home invasion and a situation in which that above mentioned society no longer provides the protections I am so grateful for.

It is a tool. A tool well designed to kill life, and in the case of my pistol, human beings specifically. That is exactly the purpose for which I purchased said tool, with the caveat that I hope it was a waste of money.

I do not value the idea that survival instincts should be oppressed/repressed, and do not think we can build a strong society with individuals who do not care for the safety of themselves and others. Or, perhaps more valid, people who expect authority figures to take the full responsibility for the safety of themselves and others.

I don't know if concealed carry would have made a difference. Given the difficulty and the lack of desire for most people to procure such a permit, I'm not sure the multiple hero gunman scenario indicated above would be probable. Consider though, that if the criminal in question had been gunned down on scene, he would never have gotten the publicity and attention he now enjoys. Not to mention that if even one innocent life was protected, that seems like a reasonable goal to attain. The story would no longer be about him, with the eye of a nation engaged and wondering out of morbid curiosity, but rather about the survivors, the victim, and the potential hero who prevented some of the survivors from becoming victims. It would have been a significantly less tragic story.

On the other hand, even if Colorado had conceal carry, there might by chance have been no one in the theater with a gun, and the events would have unfolded identical to the way they did. Or someone in the parking lot might have pulled a gun and shot him to death, and he never would have had a chance to tell police about his rigged apartment, resulting in even more casualties.

And, as I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, had all guns been illegal forever, or never even existed, still he could have blown the theater into a fireball using his knowledge of improvised explosives.

That is what I find particularly disturbing about this situation. His intelligence and knowledge, and presumably some form of recognizable logic and emotional attachment, did not prevent him from these acts. In fact, he used them as tools to further an agenda for the murder of strangers and innocents. That's pretty damn ****ed up, to me.

Any way, no matter how it is spun or what scenarios are dreamt by people wanting to prevent this from ever happening again, it did happen. He must be made to bear the responsibility of his actions. For those seeking a sense of justice and retribution, they will not find it. They can make him suffer forever, and still the dead will remain dead, and pain of bereavement will remain.

The bottom line, IMO, is this: There is no way to fix this. There is no solution that will prevent something like this from ever happening again. As a world, as a society, we should probably just be grateful that we can be appalled and outraged. There was a time not too long in the past when beheadings and public torture until death were common. How desensitized were those people, I wonder?

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[Xblade]

Imo you should have to take an obtusely rigorous psyche test to get a gun license.

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[Xblade]

Originally Posted by Dcollins85

Set aside, guns aren't to blame for the shooting, they were merely a tool.

A tool that is obviously too potent for the a average joe. If the perpetrator had went in with a knife instead his attack wouldn't of been nearly as devastating.

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[Dcollins85]

Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

Dude a internet cafe is a relatively small well lit place...a theater is almost the direct opposite being a dark much larger place where not everyone is on the same level and a giant screen is attracting everyone's attention. The outcome would have been like Kaizen said had there been more guns.

A man standing in front of a movie screen is not a hard target. The situation Kaizen described reminds me of the O.K. Corrall. Someone shooting at him would of resulted in him taking cover or running. As TastEPlasma stated, the probability of that happening is less likely.

My father is an avid gun collector, in Kansas he has 17 conceal carry permits. The max the state allows. He is also an instructor for gun safety training. He uses a .50 caliber rifle at competitive range competitions. If even one person with a gun was in the theater with the training my father has, it would of been over very fast. This is why I highly doubt the scenario of everyone shooting everyone. It's not like he just stood up and started shooting people... he announced he was the Joker. Every ones attention was on him. Easy target is easy.

And like I stated previously... People in Alaska are told even by Police officers that it's suggested you buy a gun for safety against bears. So them buying a gun isn't because they want to be able to justify killing another person. That is solely for self-defense.

In Texas there is a "Stand Your Ground" defense. If you are on your property and someone is threatening your life. You can shoot them dead and if it is proven that your life was threatened.. than you don't get charged. It's classified self-defense.

There are many instances where a gun is a tool for self-defense.

Lastly people who hunt animals, like deer, help our society have a lot less automotive accidents. Many of which lead to death. Take away the rights for people who hunt to not have guns and those statistics will double, triple, quadruple easily within a few years.

Scotland isn't a large country, so obviously your deer population isn't as troublesome as say Canada or the USA. But it is a problem here.

"According to statistics from State Farm insurance, an estimated 1.5 million vehicles collide with deer every year in the United States, causing $1.1 billion in property damage [source: CNN Money]."

Source: http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/o...-accidents.htm

__________________

There's something majestic about sliding that shifter into first, having the back tires grip the ground, the tires peel back and shoot off like a rubber band zipping you along, your car rising off the ground, you cant make out what's going past you, you just know... I'm going fast... And no... You're Ricer can't do this.

Impact of words are not measured in count of post.

[Thanakil]

Originally Posted by Dcollins85

A man standing in front of a movie screen is not a hard target. The situation Kaizen described reminds me of the O.K. Corrall. Someone shooting at him would of resulted in him taking cover or running. As TastEPlasma stated, the probability of that happening is less likely.

He was near the exit, not in front of the movie screen. He was wearing full armor and a helmet.
Someone shooting at him in the dark would have had to get him in the head. In the dark. In the back of the room. It was not an "easy target" as you state.

When he started shooting most people had no idea it was even happening, they thought the sounds were coming from the movie.
Like Kaizen said : someone else (or many people) shooting at him would have resulted in a LOT of confusion. Imagine someone stands up and starts shooting at him, then someone else looks around and see the second person, our hero, shooting at the guy.

How does he know he's not the bad guy? How does he know that guy is helping?
What if he doesn't see the first guy and thinks the second one is the bad guy and shoots him before he kills anyone else?

And really, if the lack of hunting posed a problem with deers, we could simply send people to kill them *anyway*. Governments all over the world already do it when the population of certain animals or insects becomes overwhelming.
We don't DEPEND on hunters in any way whatsoever.

It's fine to let people have guns, but they should be A LOT MORE CAREFUL when it comes to who gets them.

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---

Last edited by Thanakil; July 23rd, 2012 at 06:23..

[Phil]

I've always wanted a gun. A .45 would be a nice one. But I could never justify owning one.

[ElijahTW]

I used to own a 45 (well, legally it wasn't mine).

I messed around with a few times -shooting ranges and such. Never did find a lot of fun in it.

I also experimented with how long it would take me to grab the gun from under my bed and aim it at a target - the results were pretty poor. By the time I grab the gun and prepare myself, the robber already has 3 shots in me. The odds would be worse if it was in a safe or something.

In the end, I didn't find enough fun nor protection to justify owning something where a simple mistake or angry outburst could end someone's life. I mean, if you've ever been mad enough at someone to get in a fight - imagine if you would have had a gun in the scenario. There's a chance that all logic might have flown out of the window and you could be sitting in jail right now.

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[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Originally Posted by Dcollins85

A man standing in front of a movie screen is not a hard target. The situation Kaizen described reminds me of the O.K. Corrall. Someone shooting at him would of resulted in him taking cover or running. As TastEPlasma stated, the probability of that happening is less likely.

My father is an avid gun collector, in Kansas he has 17 conceal carry permits. The max the state allows. He is also an instructor for gun safety training. He uses a .50 caliber rifle at competitive range competitions. If even one person with a gun was in the theater with the training my father has, it would of been over very fast. This is why I highly doubt the scenario of everyone shooting everyone. It's not like he just stood up and started shooting people... he announced he was the Joker. Every ones attention was on him. Easy target is easy.

And like I stated previously... People in Alaska are told even by Police officers that it's suggested you buy a gun for safety against bears. So them buying a gun isn't because they want to be able to justify killing another person. That is solely for self-defense.

In Texas there is a "Stand Your Ground" defense. If you are on your property and someone is threatening your life. You can shoot them dead and if it is proven that your life was threatened.. than you don't get charged. It's classified self-defense.

There are many instances where a gun is a tool for self-defense.

Lastly people who hunt animals, like deer, help our society have a lot less automotive accidents. Many of which lead to death. Take away the rights for people who hunt to not have guns and those statistics will double, triple, quadruple easily within a few years.

Scotland isn't a large country, so obviously your deer population isn't as troublesome as say Canada or the USA. But it is a problem here.

"According to statistics from State Farm insurance, an estimated 1.5 million vehicles collide with deer every year in the United States, causing $1.1 billion in property damage [source: CNN Money]."

Source: http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/o...-accidents.htm

I'm not against guns full stop...I don't know where I stand on them but there's no need for the full pro gun rhetoric.

I merely agreed with Kaizen that in that situation things could have turned out very badly since there would have been no way to identify the original attacker and a subsequent defender could have been mistaken for an attacker instead with innocent blood being spilled by innocents.

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