Time for another upgrade... - Page 5

Silenus · June 25th, 2012, 21:31

I understand.
But right now I'm at a point where I'm good enough with Ultrabook performance.

I'm happier when I see tech shrink and make those big rigs shame when I can do those same tasks in way smaller enclosures.

Note: I fully understand that It will take a lot of years to reach that performance in an ultrabook package.

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Princess Garnet · June 25th, 2012, 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silenus

But right now I'm at a point where I'm good enough with Ultrabook performance.

That's the thing; not everyone else is. It's also about more than just performance.

Personally, I find that if it's smaller than mATX, I tend to start not to like it because most standards (standard size PSUs, add-in cards like video cards especially and maybe the random extra card or two, larger heatsinks, motherboards with more RAM spots, more space for extra data drives, etc.) need a case with more room than most of the small form factor stuff usually allows.

When you buy a laptop or a really small OEM, that's pretty much all you have. Expansion and sometimes even upgrades are usually much more limited (yes, yes, you can sometimes upgrade RAM and hard drives but even that seems to be in question with many soldering RAM to the mainboard now), and while that's fine for the average person who treats these things as disposable anyway, the people here building their own PC usually don't fall into that description.

The "smaller" trend is no less a fashion statement than the excessively large one is. It's a matter of preference. If the size of a full tower isn't an issue to me, than for the extra advantages it offers, there's nothing I have to be "ashamed" of. I'm not one pretentious about size.

I love my current PC I'm on (a "desktop" form factor OptiPlex 380, which is essentially between a SFF and mATX) for what it is, but I'd never use something this small for a primary PC if I had a choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

It's about cooling and strength of components man, you can not like big cases as much as you want but as soon as you start running high-end parts you need the extra space for the cooling it provides and because high-end parts are usually bigger.

There's some truth to that, but in theory, with a smaller space to work with, you don't need as much cooling, no?

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**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 25th, 2012, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Garnet

There's some truth to that, but in theory, with a smaller space to work with, you don't need as much cooling, no?

huh? the cooling doesn't cool the space...it cools the components...

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Strike105X · June 25th, 2012, 22:26

That plus in a more contained space heat will build up stronger.

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Princess Garnet · June 26th, 2012, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

huh? the cooling doesn't cool the space...it cools the components...

Yes, and those components make heat which needs removed by the airflow, no? With less space inside, would't you not need as much cooling as in a bigger case?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike105X

That plus in a more contained space heat will build up stronger.

Only if the cooling is comparatively inadequate, yes.

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**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 26th, 2012, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Garnet

Yes, and those components make heat which needs removed by the airflow, no? With less space inside, would't you not need as much cooling as in a bigger case?Only if the cooling is comparatively inadequate, yes.

No. Definitely not. If anything you'd need even more vigorous cooling since there would be less space for the sucked away heat to float around in and thus you'd have to pump the hot air out even faster.

If you had less cooling in a smaller space you'd just end up with lots of overheated components.

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Princess Garnet · June 26th, 2012, 14:25

This is probably something that could be argued either way and could vary depending on the exact example, but my individual idea is merely that smaller cases also have less room inside, so there's less space that needs to be accounted for, thus less cooling. With less space, you don't need to move as much air to equal moving the same air in the same time as a larger case would have to. I'm not saying the ceiling of cooling potential or whatever is as high.

There's perhaps also often lest "waste" space or potential for hot spots in smaller cases too.

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**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 26th, 2012, 14:30

You don't account for the space. You don't put a big fan in because you're worried the air won't be able to reach the extraction fan with a smaller one, you put a big fan in because you want to do a better job of cooling your components.

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No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

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Princess Garnet · June 26th, 2012, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

You don't account for the space.

Why not? A fan's job is to the circulate the air inside (from outside to in, and from inside to out). With more space, you need more airflow (all else being the same, which, yes, it really never is, but I'm just saying).

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**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 26th, 2012, 15:09

The amount of air you need to move depends entirely on how hot the components are. With more heat you need more airflow. It's not hard to get good airflow, if anything it's easier with more space since there are less obstacles. Above and beyond that depends purely on how much heat is produced and how much space it has to float around in (in other words how likely it is to create a reduction in effectiveness of the cooling).

With more space all things being equal you'd actually need less cooling since it would be easier to move the hot air there is and the hot air that's there wouldn't start hampering the cooling process as quickly.

With a smaller space you'd have to find a way to speed up the cooling process since a reduction in cooling ability would happen much faster.

Now I know gamer laptops have far less cooling, but that's because the OEMs run weaker components and they set themselves a much higher threshold for heat than your typical enthusiast. I mean they only put as much cooling in as needed to keep the components 2-3 degrees below their thermal max for 2 hours or so. Whereas an enthusiast wants a far bigger safety cushion and uses stronger components that produce even more heat.

IF you were talking purely ambient heat than you'd be right though.

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Last edited by SCHUMI_4EVER; June 26th, 2012 at 15:14..

Princess Garnet · June 26th, 2012, 15:25

I'm only talking about airflow itself. It was more of a mention of theory of airflow itself than an all around statement of behavior in practice. I didn't say smaller cases were necessarily equal or better on average and/or in practice (especially with desktop/higher grade equipment); just that a separately overlooked factor is perhaps that their smaller size is how they partly afford getting away with less cooling/airflow (and yes, other things help like often using lower grade stuff, but considering a laptop can have respectable stuff, a small form factor could perhaps do closer yet).

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**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 26th, 2012, 16:26

No. They only have less cooling because they either can't have more or because their components are so weak they don't need more.

Airflow is easy. All you need is a place to get cooler air (ambient air outside the case is presumed to be cooler...for a weaker system merely leaving hold for ambient air to intrude into a case is enough. Then all warm air rises (a reason why many cases these days put the PSU at the bottom) and all you need then is a way to get it out with an extraction fan. All else is added purely to speed up the process since the components produce too much heat for the simple process to work properly or because some components require special attention over and above normal airflow.

Take for instance a fanless graphics card...are you going to tell me it can get away without a fan because it's smaller than a performance card?

Take ANY laptop and put parts of equivalent strength in a mid or full tower with equal cooling abilities and I guarantee that the tower will always be (providing ambient temps lower than operating temps) cooler.

__________________

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The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!!

No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

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Last edited by SCHUMI_4EVER; June 26th, 2012 at 16:33..

Princess Garnet · June 26th, 2012, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Garnet

I'm only talking about airflow itself. It was more of a mention of theory of airflow itself than an all around statement of behavior in practice. I didn't say smaller cases were necessarily equal or better on average and/or in practice (especially with desktop/higher grade equipment); just that a separately overlooked factor is perhaps that their smaller size is how they partly afford getting away with less cooling/airflow (and yes, other things help like often using lower grade stuff, but considering a laptop can have respectable stuff, a small form factor could perhaps do closer yet).

Whoosh! (I'm not trying to be rude but seriously...)

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**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 26th, 2012, 16:44

I'm sorry, I don't do well with impractical theory.

And I don't get how what I'm arguing is any different...I'm also just talking about airflow...it's really not that important a deal ... any supposed lack of airflow you talk about in a big case is offset but the ability to "store" more warm air without negatively impacting cooling performance.

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No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

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Princess Garnet · June 26th, 2012, 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCHUMI_4EVER

it's really not that important a deal

It's not, and that is why I mentioned this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princess Garnet

This is probably something that could be argued either way and could vary depending on the exact example...

That it was something that could be an argument on both sides if you got into it in a broad sense, but I was intending on making a statement of one part of an idea, not a whole. You replied going "B is better than A" which is beyond what I am after.

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**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 26th, 2012, 17:17

No...I'm trying to say neither is better given components that don't require additional cooling.

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The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!!

No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0

Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!!

!!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

Princess Garnet · June 26th, 2012, 17:47

I'm not sure how that relates to my statement or why you brought it up then. My statement was about airflow and cooling and was in response to your statement that bigger cases are better for that.

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June 25th, 2012, 21:31	#81
Silenus Pilgrim Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Hyperion Posts: 6,873	I understand. But right now I'm at a point where I'm good enough with Ultrabook performance. I'm happier when I see tech shrink and make those big rigs shame when I can do those same tasks in way smaller enclosures. Note: I fully understand that It will take a lot of years to reach that performance in an ultrabook package. __________________ DELL XPS 13 ULTRABOOK ...Mis sueños son mentiras que algun día dejarán de serlo...

June 25th, 2012, 22:26	#84
Strike105X ヒットハード＆高速 Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Aincrad Posts: 13,679	That plus in a more contained space heat will build up stronger. __________________ DeviantArt\|AnimeList\|PC Config

June 26th, 2012, 14:25	#87
Princess Garnet From Love and Limerence Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,555	This is probably something that could be argued either way and could vary depending on the exact example, but my individual idea is merely that smaller cases also have less room inside, so there's less space that needs to be accounted for, thus less cooling. With less space, you don't need to move as much air to equal moving the same air in the same time as a larger case would have to. I'm not saying the ceiling of cooling potential or whatever is as high. There's perhaps also often lest "waste" space or potential for hot spots in smaller cases too. __________________ "The heart has it's reasons that reason knows nothing of."

June 26th, 2012, 14:30	#88
SCHUMI_4EVER Hackin 'n Slashin Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Most-expensive-Internet-on-the-Planet Land : South Africa Posts: 26,321	You don't account for the space. You don't put a big fan in because you're worried the air won't be able to reach the extraction fan with a smaller one, you put a big fan in because you want to do a better job of cooling your components. __________________ Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) \| ASUS P5Q \| 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 \| ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M \| Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1 The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!! No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0 Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!! !!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

June 26th, 2012, 15:09	#90
SCHUMI_4EVER Hackin 'n Slashin Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Most-expensive-Internet-on-the-Planet Land : South Africa Posts: 26,321	The amount of air you need to move depends entirely on how hot the components are. With more heat you need more airflow. It's not hard to get good airflow, if anything it's easier with more space since there are less obstacles. Above and beyond that depends purely on how much heat is produced and how much space it has to float around in (in other words how likely it is to create a reduction in effectiveness of the cooling). With more space all things being equal you'd actually need less cooling since it would be easier to move the hot air there is and the hot air that's there wouldn't start hampering the cooling process as quickly. With a smaller space you'd have to find a way to speed up the cooling process since a reduction in cooling ability would happen much faster. Now I know gamer laptops have far less cooling, but that's because the OEMs run weaker components and they set themselves a much higher threshold for heat than your typical enthusiast. I mean they only put as much cooling in as needed to keep the components 2-3 degrees below their thermal max for 2 hours or so. Whereas an enthusiast wants a far bigger safety cushion and uses stronger components that produce even more heat. IF you were talking purely ambient heat than you'd be right though. __________________ Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) \| ASUS P5Q \| 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 \| ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M \| Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1 The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!! No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0 Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!! !!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!! Last edited by SCHUMI_4EVER; June 26th, 2012 at 15:14..

June 26th, 2012, 15:25	#91
Princess Garnet From Love and Limerence Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,555	I'm only talking about airflow itself. It was more of a mention of theory of airflow itself than an all around statement of behavior in practice. I didn't say smaller cases were necessarily equal or better on average and/or in practice (especially with desktop/higher grade equipment); just that a separately overlooked factor is perhaps that their smaller size is how they partly afford getting away with less cooling/airflow (and yes, other things help like often using lower grade stuff, but considering a laptop can have respectable stuff, a small form factor could perhaps do closer yet). __________________ "The heart has it's reasons that reason knows nothing of."

June 26th, 2012, 16:26	#92
SCHUMI_4EVER Hackin 'n Slashin Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Most-expensive-Internet-on-the-Planet Land : South Africa Posts: 26,321	No. They only have less cooling because they either can't have more or because their components are so weak they don't need more. Airflow is easy. All you need is a place to get cooler air (ambient air outside the case is presumed to be cooler...for a weaker system merely leaving hold for ambient air to intrude into a case is enough. Then all warm air rises (a reason why many cases these days put the PSU at the bottom) and all you need then is a way to get it out with an extraction fan. All else is added purely to speed up the process since the components produce too much heat for the simple process to work properly or because some components require special attention over and above normal airflow. Take for instance a fanless graphics card...are you going to tell me it can get away without a fan because it's smaller than a performance card? Take ANY laptop and put parts of equivalent strength in a mid or full tower with equal cooling abilities and I guarantee that the tower will always be (providing ambient temps lower than operating temps) cooler. __________________ Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) \| ASUS P5Q \| 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 \| ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M \| Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1 The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!! No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0 Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!! !!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!! Last edited by SCHUMI_4EVER; June 26th, 2012 at 16:33..

June 26th, 2012, 16:44	#94
SCHUMI_4EVER Hackin 'n Slashin Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Most-expensive-Internet-on-the-Planet Land : South Africa Posts: 26,321	I'm sorry, I don't do well with impractical theory. And I don't get how what I'm arguing is any different...I'm also just talking about airflow...it's really not that important a deal ... any supposed lack of airflow you talk about in a big case is offset but the ability to "store" more warm air without negatively impacting cooling performance. __________________ Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) \| ASUS P5Q \| 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 \| ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M \| Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1 The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!! No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0 Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!! !!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

June 26th, 2012, 17:17	#96
SCHUMI_4EVER Hackin 'n Slashin Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Most-expensive-Internet-on-the-Planet Land : South Africa Posts: 26,321	No...I'm trying to say neither is better given components that don't require additional cooling. __________________ Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) \| ASUS P5Q \| 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 \| ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M \| Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1 The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!! No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0 Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!! !!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

June 26th, 2012, 17:47	#97
Princess Garnet From Love and Limerence Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,555	I'm not sure how that relates to my statement or why you brought it up then. My statement was about airflow and cooling and was in response to your statement that bigger cases are better for that. __________________ "The heart has it's reasons that reason knows nothing of."