Windows 8 discussion

[Strike105X]

Yeah they really shot themselves in the foot with that hideous UI... What are they thinking trying to force that ? ...

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[SCHUMI_4EVER]

I really don't get why this is part of the main branch and not a new separate mobile OS. I mean they've done it before so why not now?

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[@ruantec]

Good point... i personally don't get what's there plan with Windows 8.

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[Hard core Rikki]

Interestingly, its usually only the UI that gets dissed. Windows8's saving grace could be allowing selection of your preferred desktop look at install time (classic by default, unless on touch-enabled devices and similar, then offer one of classic or metro permanently discarded unless switched back by the user).

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[Xblade]

What is that UI I don't even...........

It reminds me of the xbox dashboard, that is a very bad thing.

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[Lasnap]

The most complained about item is the UI because its the most in your face jarring problem. How are you able to appreciate the rest of the os when the UI doesnt work most of the time?

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[@ruantec]

I have to say that even if i don't see the UI as a good move there is for sure a reason why MS is pushing it. Sure we can hate it or love it as it is right now but lets not forget that MS loves to provide tons of silly versions at the end that may not contain the UI at all as in my opinion it seems like is only usable on a real tablet. I can understand why people here are complaining about it and they have a reason. However we have to face the fact that must of you people that tested Windows 8 don't really own a tablet PC which is the main reason MS is doing all that. I have to say that when you use it on a tablet is half as bad.

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[Kaizen]

I'm using the win8's ...and I like metro. You can still spend 99% of the time in the usual desktop manner


You can even use both at the same time if you multi monitor, literally just use metro on the screen you actively choose to engage with it on.
Click on the background desktop screen and both screens switch to the desktop (if you're not in a metro app), just bottom left the screen again to restore your metro stuff from the double desktop.

It's actually pretty sweet to be honest. The calender for example is useful as ****.
When I get phoned up for my working hours, I used to just quick open a notepad and type them in but now I use calender and it email notifies me the day before the next shift. I also see most of your birthdays on it.

You can also dock the desktop to the side of metro, it's like having an alt tab dock with all yer windaes.
Gud stuff man.

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Last edited by Kaizen; June 3rd, 2012 at 21:05..

[@ruantec]

Have to admit that's pretty neat... i will try it here since i use multiple monitor.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by @ruantec

I have to say that even if i don't see the UI as a good move there is for sure a reason why MS is pushing it. Sure we can hate it or love it as it is right now but lets not forget that MS loves to provide tons of silly versions at the end that may not contain the UI at all as in my opinion it seems like is only usable on a real tablet. I can understand why people here are complaining about it and they have a reason. However we have to face the fact that must of you people that tested Windows 8 don't really own a tablet PC which is the main reason MS is doing all that. I have to say that when you use it on a tablet is half as bad.

Well, it isn't half as bad actually. On a tablet (Samsung Series 7 and HP Slate 2), it's TWICE as ****.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but seriously, it's very... unassuming when you are suddenly pulled into desktop mode on a tablet from Metro. And that happens for pretty much... any application/program that isn't made for Metro, which is... everything (including Microsoft Office) at this point.

It's also insanely hard to get back into Metro as... it's not obvious what you have to do to get back (aside from sliding your finger from a corner of the screen, that is).

What's more, if IE10 didn't include some crippled Flash support (note: that means only on specific websites), then I'd still be stuck switching from Metro into desktop just to... surf Youtube.

But hell, I'm still pulled into desktop most of the time anyway because of the mentioned note! Flash still doesn't work for a lot of websites, and... most of those websites, which have PERFECTLY VIEWABLE direct h.264 MP4 containers served to iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad, REFUSE to give Windows 8 the same privilege. I swear Apple must be tipping off at least half their cash pile to all of those web admins in order to keep those sweet contents off of any device that doesn't have an "i" as its initial. That's playing dirty (on Apple's part), I tell ya.

But if that's not enough, then I actually find the on-screen keyboard in Windows 8 to be erratic in desktop mode. It appears whenever it pleases. I either have to invoke it using a hardware button (with buggy drivers in Windows 8 so it doesn't work half the time!) or I can dig into a bunch of menus to pull it out, or... I can just use trusty Hot Virtual Keyboard, which... works a hell of a lot better than a native keyboard implementation! (the hell!?)

Originally Posted by Kaizen

...The calender for example is useful as ****...

And you know... it's **** that Microsoft took that same Calendar off in Windows Vista, never re-introduced it (and even took off the Contact and Mail applications) in Windows 7, and now they are putting it back in Windows 8.

It was never a new feature!

In comparison, Apple's implementation of those things (contacts, calendar, mail) has improved so much that some of their original supported protocols have become the de facto standards (check CalDAV and IMAP). Microsoft dropped the ball HUGE considering their OS was also marketed toward professional. They tried to gear everyone into the whole Bing/Hotmail/Windows Live **** too much!

To their credit, now the mentioned applications (contacts/mail/calendar) have indeed improved, and I can proudly agree with your assessment that they are awesome and useful as ****! Hopefully Microsoft can keep this up.

[Lasnap]

Microsoft has made a whitelist of sites that work with flash in IE10 and there is where the problem steams from. IF the site isnt on the whitelist it doesnt work flat out. You can blame Microsoft and adobe for that. Does flash still work perfectly fine in other browsers such as firefox and chrome?

The lack of a start menu in desktop mode sucks badly and they way programs just dump everything to metro and you have to manualy go in and move everything to the dekstop youself by going into each individal programs program file it is just not worth it to me. I will be sticking to windows 7 for everything and will be install linux if windows 9 doesnt fix all those issues. I will stick to windows 7 for running older games that dont seem to run at all with W.I.N.E since most of my games use directx 8 or lower and WINE is mainly for dirctx 9 games

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by Lasnap

Does flash still work perfectly fine in other browsers such as firefox and chrome?

Yep. But you're pulled into desktop mode for those browsers.

And yeah, Microsoft whitelisted sites, so that's a problem. I don't understand why they can't just allow all sites, but ah well.

[Kaizen]

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

And you know... it's **** that Microsoft took that same Calendar off in Windows Vista, never re-introduced it (and even took off the Contact and Mail applications) in Windows 7, and now they are putting it back in Windows 8.

It was never a new feature!

In comparison, Apple's implementation of those things (contacts, calendar, mail) has improved so much that some of their original supported protocols have become the de facto standards (check CalDAV and IMAP). Microsoft dropped the ball HUGE considering their OS was also marketed toward professional. They tried to gear everyone into the whole Bing/Hotmail/Windows Live **** too much!

To their credit, now the mentioned applications (contacts/mail/calendar) have indeed improved, and I can proudly agree with your assessment that they are awesome and useful as ****! Hopefully Microsoft can keep this up.

It's common business practice to withhold features to provide a prolonged update path.

Hilarious though is how you bash microsoft by showing how different apple is considering they literally pioneered false deviation of progression for product development.
Apple are the kings of retarding products.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by Kaizen

It's common business practice to withhold features to provide a prolonged update path.

But they didn't withhold anything. They literally removed features, and then put them back later on.

Hilarious though is how you bash microsoft by showing how different apple is considering they literally pioneered false deviation of progression for product development.
Apple are the kings of retarding products.

I'm not blind enough to completely disregard that while Microsoft was toying away with silly ideas, the rival company was steadily rising.

If by turning a blind eye on what bad things Microsoft has done that I can receive good products from Microsoft, then I'll happily do so.

If Apple is the king of retarding products, then Microsoft must be the lord with what they have done to Vista, 7, and now 8, which is obviously being dumbed down even more.

[@ruantec]

Isn't the enemy the company that loves to make products that are so easy to use that even retarded people can use them??? if the enemy gains more power then i will finally see what the mayas meant with the doom day this year. Welcome to the 1 button mouse and super overpriced desktop hardware YAY!

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Last edited by @ruantec; June 4th, 2012 at 18:08..

[runawayprisoner]

You do know that Mac OSX does support a right click and that it's implemented directly into the Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad, right? (Magic Trackpad actually has 2 distinct buttons)

And how much more power do they have to gain? They're already the most valuable company in the world.

[@ruantec]

They are indeed the most valuable company in the world but that's just a "shine" value because of there current popularity... just like Nintendo got a similar status a while ago with the Wii for a short period of time if i'm not mistaken. Such values are meaningless as long as the company that get such status isn't taken serious in a professional enviroment. If THAT value you're talking about were REAL then every company would be using macs right now and i honestly doubt that is going to happen anytime soon.... the value you're talking about is the status a company gets because X product is selling like a hot cake which leads to a great success but it doesn't mean anything in the long run if you ask me.

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[runawayprisoner]

No, most valuable as in... their company has more value than any other company in the entire world. Their market cap makes them worth more than both Google and Microsoft put together. Or you can stack HP, Dell, Acer, Toshiba, etc... for dramatic effect.

http://ycharts.com/companies/AAPL/market_cap

And yeah, that value is REAL. It's not popularity, it's how much the entire company is worth in real hard cold cash value. If someone wanted to buy Apple right now, they could use that same money to outright purchase both Microsoft and Google, or multiple smaller companies like Dell, HP, etc...

Many companies in the Sillicon Valley, as I have mentioned, are already using just Macs exclusively.

Even Google has more Macs than PCs in their office.

[DinJerr]

I'm not saying Lion IS a touchscreen OS. I'm just saying it's paving the way for one.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

The huge ass icons have always been there in OSX. It's not a touch feature. OSX has always required icons of size 512 x 512 (seriously) for many applications.

I know they're there. But it's almost never required. So there's no f-ing reason the Apps folder on the dock needs to be 'upgraded' with this monstrosity at all.

The reversed scrolling direction doesn't do anything, either.

Precisely. So what was the point of introducing it to a Desktop OS?

Most necessary operations in OSX Lion now involve users moving mouse cursor to a corner of screen (dock, fullscreen app) or something else that would require a physical hardware keyboard.

METRO. How do you access the Start menu if you don't have a Start button on your TabletPC display case? Right, corners.

Most multitouch gestures available in Lion currently limit touchscreen support (if any) to only a single touch since anything more than one finger is considered a gesture of its own... on a global scale. And some of those gestures (scrolling, etc...) cannot be changed without angering long-time users further (on top of what Apple has done to Lion)

No they won't. Multitouch works just fine on the Magic Mouse, so whatever crazy gestures would translate just fine from there or the iPad convention of doing things.

5) There is no resolution-independence in OSX, so depending on the resolution of the screen, elements would get way too small for touchscreen operation.

That sure didn't stop Microsoft. With notebook screens getting smaller and resolutions getting higher, it got worse. Hence, why we're here today with Metro.

All in all, I sure a fudge don't NEED a touchscreen OSX at all. It's fine as it is. As for Metro, well perhaps the best win-win situation is to include classic 'theme' that allows stubborn (wiser?) users to stick the classic Start menu.

I don't miss the Start menu at all, about 80% of the time I do click on it is to access the shutdown button. The Superbar has succeeded in replacing a lot of the workflow & functionalities from the Start menu, and it's still around in Win8.

One of the problems with touchscreen interfaces for PCs is that the screen is vertical. It actually requires a whole lot more work (and energy) to point with a hand compared to small nudges on a mouse or laying the tablet on a surface. The second problem is to lay a touchscreen sensor on a huge-ass monitor would murder the cost.

Instead of porting over their expensive Kinect hardware, they probably should use something similar to Leap Motion to replace most of the gestures required to navigate Metro.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by DinJerr

I'm not saying Lion IS a touchscreen OS. I'm just saying it's paving the way for one.

No chance. It's paving the way for a more advanced desktop OS is more like it. Like I said, many other interface elements aside from the icons are getting smaller and can only be hit with a mouse pointer.

I know they're there. But it's almost never required. So there's no f-ing reason the Apps folder on the dock needs to be 'upgraded' with this monstrosity at all.

It's actually a requirement. And the apps folder is slower to access than the Launchpad in OSX Lion once you get the hang of it.

Precisely. So what was the point of introducing it to a Desktop OS?

Bring the desktop OS more in conjunction with the mobile OS. You scroll in reverse (finger up to scroll page down) on mobile due to the touchscreen, so if muscle memory is anything to live by, it's better to do it in reverse.

But for desktop users, it doesn't do anything.

METRO. How do you access the Start menu if you don't have a Start button on your TabletPC display case? Right, corners.

But OSX Lion doesn't rely on corners. Instead, it relies on edges of the screen (top edge for menu bar and bottom edge for Dock). And the trigger for Dock is harder because you need to move the mouse again at the edge. You can't replicate the same functionality on a touch screen.

No they won't. Multitouch works just fine on the Magic Mouse, so whatever crazy gestures would translate just fine from there or the iPad convention of doing things.

Not all multitouch gestures work on the Magic Mouse. The Magic Trackpad does far more. And the Magic Trackpad is still not appropriate for multitouch gestures, so you can pretty much guess how it'd go.

That sure didn't stop Microsoft. With notebook screens getting smaller and resolutions getting higher, it got worse. Hence, why we're here today with Metro.

It's weird, but Microsoft is actually getting closer to resolution-independence in Windows than Apple is.

There is no DPI scaling in OSX, but there is an option for that in Windows.

But the bottom line is... Apple is clearly not trying to make a touchscreen OSX at this time. Microsoft is clearly trying to make a touchscreen Windows. That's the fundamental difference.