Windows 8 discussion - Page 33

Lasnap · May 25th, 2012, 01:51

No one is buying them becuase the support from the devs isnt there and the devs dont want to support because they arent every where so its a cycle much like any other thing in the tech world.

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runawayprisoner · May 25th, 2012, 04:15

Well, I think developers would still support a platform regardless of install base if (ranking in terms of importance):

1) Manufacturer/OEM shows willingness to continue supporting the platform
2) Manufacturer/OEM shows willingness to sit down with devs and resolve issues
3) SDK is complete, stable, elegant, and functional
4) There is enough documentation
5) There is a clear roadmap of what is going to happen next with regards to feature changes and updates to the platform
6) They can get easy access to the device and test their codes on it
7) Their codes run fast/smooth/responsive even in debug phase because both the platform and SDK have been optimized to death and back (in other words, LIGHTER work for developers)
8) The platform is feature-rich, and provides the necessary tools (sensors, camera, multitouch control, hardware button, etc...) for the developer to accomplish their task

Of all of those, I think Apple meets everything with their iOS platform.

Microsoft is missing no. 8, which can be resolved with better hardwares, and no. 7, which is entirely up to their development team's effort to further refine Windows 8, but overall, I think they are promising.

Google misses no. 2, no. 3, no. 5, and no. 7. No. 2 and 3 are CRITICAL, and that's why Android on tablets is failing so hard.

HP/Palm failed no. 1, which is the most important point, and that's why the HP TouchPad died.

RIM is failing 3, 4, 5, and 7, which is why their Blackberry Playbook hasn't taken off yet.

Basically, that is to say... I think Microsoft has the best chance against Apple out of all of the other guys.

But it's also to say... I think Apple has nailed those key points very hard on the head when they unleashed the iPad, and that's why the iPad is dominating the market right now. It's not really because they have a good reputation because... let's face it, prior to the iPhone and iPad, I don't think anyone gives 2 cents about Apple, and... I'm sure @ruantec agrees with me here.

It's not Apple's reputation that put them on the roadmap. It's some masterful strategy and planning that put them there.

I think Microsoft also saw that, and that's why they are doing Windows 8.

Now... from my standpoint, I simply don't find tablets all that enticing. Yes, the iPad included. So personally, I pretty much agree with @ruantec and Schumi. However, I also think that what Apple did to the iPad can't be ignored, and if left alone for long, eventually it'll have enough features to be on par with what we have today, but it'll run far smoother, faster, and more responsive, all the while in a more elegant form factor. That's why I think Microsoft has to make Windows 8. They must crush this egg before it hatches into a dragon.

But here's the thing: Microsoft acknowledges the iPad that much. Yet there are still those who don't acknowledge it.

(by the way, acknowledging it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it, or even think that it's usable)

Last edited by runawayprisoner; May 25th, 2012 at 04:22..

DinJerr · May 29th, 2012, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

Nope. Lion and iOS are separate. The key point is that iOS is touchscreen-friendly whereas Lion is not.

Right, that's why they introduced the huge-ass icons in Launchpad and reversed the default scrolling direction for the mouse. If anything, I'm betting on a touchscreen MacBook by the time we have OS XI, or OS 10.10, whichever they call it.

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runawayprisoner · May 30th, 2012, 23:17

The huge ass icons have always been there in OSX. It's not a touch feature. OSX has always required icons of size 512 x 512 (seriously) for many applications.

The reversed scrolling direction doesn't do anything, either.

Here are a few reasons why OSX is not touchscreen-friendly:

1) There is no on-screen keyboard
2) Most buttons have been slimmed down and are actually smaller than even OSX Snow Leopard
3) Most necessary operations in OSX Lion now involve users moving mouse cursor to a corner of screen (dock, fullscreen app) or something else that would require a physical hardware keyboard.
4) Most multitouch gestures available in Lion currently limit touchscreen support (if any) to only a single touch since anything more than one finger is considered a gesture of its own... on a global scale. And some of those gestures (scrolling, etc...) cannot be changed without angering long-time users further (on top of what Apple has done to Lion)
5) There is no resolution-independence in OSX, so depending on the resolution of the screen, elements would get way too small for touchscreen operation.
6) Many Lion apps are still dependent upon mouse events, even Apple's own apps, and there is no documentation on how developers should implement touchscreen support.
7) Steve Jobs himself said they already tried touchscreen and it was goofy.
8) The way Apple does OSX makes it almost impossible for them to create a tablet for OSX with current gen hardware. Almost impossible while trying to keep up the current level of performance (snappiness, battery life, smoothness), that is.

Whether they'll include support for it in the future or not, I have no idea, but... it doesn't look like they'll do it this year. OSX Mountain Lion seems to be just as anti-touchscreen as OSX Lion is.

But I also think Apple has good reason to keep OSX and iOS separate. That way, they can focus the entertainment and consumption side of the equation on iOS, and concentrate workstation and professional stuffs on the Mac. In which case, they can keep up the same wide portfolio of products and keep everyone happy while having a legitimate reason to charge more for the "professional" products.

It's not the same case for Microsoft because... Microsoft doesn't make anything other than software. Apple wants to eat the hardware sale, while Microsoft just needs to sell more softwares.

Of course, that also means that Microsoft can either choose to diversify their products (I think they have been there and done that already... remember Windows XP Home, Pro, Media Center, Tablet Ed?), or they can choose to group all products together and spend less time (which translates to money) developing individual editions. The choice is obvious.

Last edited by runawayprisoner; May 30th, 2012 at 23:25..

KrossX · May 31st, 2012, 20:47

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...elease-preview

Release preview!

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runawayprisoner · May 31st, 2012, 22:07

Cool!

The video is completely broken on Mac and unwatchable on any computer with less than a Core 2 Duo as its processor. Heck, it doesn't even play on Linux since Linux doesn't have Silverlight.

And it's only showing people watching videos, doing goofy stuffs...

Oh wait, there was one instance when someone tried to pull up Microsoft Excel from... Metro... and the switch to desktop was laggy... and unsightly...

Yep!

----

On a more serious note, I don't see anything different from Consumer Preview. Same ****ty performance on my HP Slate 2. Looks like Microsoft didn't learn... at all. Time to jump ship! Oh wait...

Alright, no more jokes. Seriously, I don't know why they need a "release preview". Just release the damn thing already if they aren't changing anything.

KrossX · May 31st, 2012, 23:08

Blog post about the new things on the release preview:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2...e-preview.aspx

And I just saw the video, and it reminds me of the intro video of Windows Me. XD

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**@ruantec** · June 1st, 2012, 06:50

@RAP
I watched the video but i didn't noticed any lags... could it be your tablet?

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Lasnap · June 1st, 2012, 07:27

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**@ruantec** · June 1st, 2012, 08:11

Hahahahahaha! good one

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Lasnap · June 1st, 2012, 08:25

History is bound to repeat itself at sometime and since Technology moves so dang fast repeats happen a lot quicker.

Found the picture posted elsewhere and figured I would post it here for the laughs

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**@ruantec** · June 1st, 2012, 08:42

Cool! i personally will skip Windows 8 as much as i can so my plans are to buy a Samsung Slate 7 tablet PC and create my own interface for it with a full featured explorer which is what Metro lacks badly and in that way i will have a device that fits my needs.

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Lasnap · June 1st, 2012, 08:58

I agree about metro being half baked in its current form. They could do it so much better for both the desktop and mobile spaces. going to be hard working with the desktop explorer while on a tablet device for instance and that metro ui just doesnt work to well on a desktop. Whats with the annoying splash screen that you have to drag upwards before you can even login?

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**@ruantec** · June 1st, 2012, 09:23

What really bothers me about Metro is that is just a UI frontend and not fully integrated in the system as i expected from MS... even a small coder like me could write such a UI as i've proved with @ES and they need ages even having a whole team that works full time on it... and to complete the combo they haven't provided a file manager yet which is just sad.

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Lasnap · June 1st, 2012, 09:44

Yeah I noitced that by just messing around with both the developers and consumers preview and agree with everything you said in that post

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runawayprisoner · June 1st, 2012, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by @ruantec

@RAP
I watched the video but i didn't noticed any lags... could it be your tablet?

It's only when switching from Metro to desktop. I guess that's because desktop mode doesn't run all the time. But heh.

Neither of us will get this OS anyway, so...

Silenus · June 1st, 2012, 19:27

I for one welcome our Metro overlords!

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Kaizen · June 1st, 2012, 21:03

Quote:

Your PC's CPU isn't compatible with Windows 8.

lol, sandy bridge isn't win 8 compatible or a crap installer?
You decide.

**SCHUMI_4EVER** · June 1st, 2012, 22:59

Looking at the image Lasnap posted it appears only 486s are supported

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**Hard core Rikki** · June 2nd, 2012, 05:20

Tried the thing more.

...I'll skip 8, the wretched thing cripples productivity way too much. A shame, given the attractive technical advances unrelated to the UI.

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May 25th, 2012, 01:51	#641
Lasnap Elven-Dragon Mage Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,874	No one is buying them becuase the support from the devs isnt there and the devs dont want to support because they arent every where so its a cycle much like any other thing in the tech world. __________________ Love Knows No Bounds!

May 25th, 2012, 04:15	#642
runawayprisoner Level 9998 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Java Posts: 9,377	Well, I think developers would still support a platform regardless of install base if (ranking in terms of importance): 1) Manufacturer/OEM shows willingness to continue supporting the platform 2) Manufacturer/OEM shows willingness to sit down with devs and resolve issues 3) SDK is complete, stable, elegant, and functional 4) There is enough documentation 5) There is a clear roadmap of what is going to happen next with regards to feature changes and updates to the platform 6) They can get easy access to the device and test their codes on it 7) Their codes run fast/smooth/responsive even in debug phase because both the platform and SDK have been optimized to death and back (in other words, LIGHTER work for developers) 8) The platform is feature-rich, and provides the necessary tools (sensors, camera, multitouch control, hardware button, etc...) for the developer to accomplish their task Of all of those, I think Apple meets everything with their iOS platform. Microsoft is missing no. 8, which can be resolved with better hardwares, and no. 7, which is entirely up to their development team's effort to further refine Windows 8, but overall, I think they are promising. Google misses no. 2, no. 3, no. 5, and no. 7. No. 2 and 3 are CRITICAL, and that's why Android on tablets is failing so hard. HP/Palm failed no. 1, which is the most important point, and that's why the HP TouchPad died. RIM is failing 3, 4, 5, and 7, which is why their Blackberry Playbook hasn't taken off yet. Basically, that is to say... I think Microsoft has the best chance against Apple out of all of the other guys. But it's also to say... I think Apple has nailed those key points very hard on the head when they unleashed the iPad, and that's why the iPad is dominating the market right now. It's not really because they have a good reputation because... let's face it, prior to the iPhone and iPad, I don't think anyone gives 2 cents about Apple, and... I'm sure @ruantec agrees with me here. It's not Apple's reputation that put them on the roadmap. It's some masterful strategy and planning that put them there. I think Microsoft also saw that, and that's why they are doing Windows 8. Now... from my standpoint, I simply don't find tablets all that enticing. Yes, the iPad included. So personally, I pretty much agree with @ruantec and Schumi. However, I also think that what Apple did to the iPad can't be ignored, and if left alone for long, eventually it'll have enough features to be on par with what we have today, but it'll run far smoother, faster, and more responsive, all the while in a more elegant form factor. That's why I think Microsoft has to make Windows 8. They must crush this egg before it hatches into a dragon. But here's the thing: Microsoft acknowledges the iPad that much. Yet there are still those who don't acknowledge it. (by the way, acknowledging it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it, or even think that it's usable) Last edited by runawayprisoner; May 25th, 2012 at 04:22..

May 30th, 2012, 23:17	#644
runawayprisoner Level 9998 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Java Posts: 9,377	The huge ass icons have always been there in OSX. It's not a touch feature. OSX has always required icons of size 512 x 512 (seriously) for many applications. The reversed scrolling direction doesn't do anything, either. Here are a few reasons why OSX is not touchscreen-friendly: 1) There is no on-screen keyboard 2) Most buttons have been slimmed down and are actually smaller than even OSX Snow Leopard 3) Most necessary operations in OSX Lion now involve users moving mouse cursor to a corner of screen (dock, fullscreen app) or something else that would require a physical hardware keyboard. 4) Most multitouch gestures available in Lion currently limit touchscreen support (if any) to only a single touch since anything more than one finger is considered a gesture of its own... on a global scale. And some of those gestures (scrolling, etc...) cannot be changed without angering long-time users further (on top of what Apple has done to Lion) 5) There is no resolution-independence in OSX, so depending on the resolution of the screen, elements would get way too small for touchscreen operation. 6) Many Lion apps are still dependent upon mouse events, even Apple's own apps, and there is no documentation on how developers should implement touchscreen support. 7) Steve Jobs himself said they already tried touchscreen and it was goofy. 8) The way Apple does OSX makes it almost impossible for them to create a tablet for OSX with current gen hardware. Almost impossible while trying to keep up the current level of performance (snappiness, battery life, smoothness), that is. Whether they'll include support for it in the future or not, I have no idea, but... it doesn't look like they'll do it this year. OSX Mountain Lion seems to be just as anti-touchscreen as OSX Lion is. But I also think Apple has good reason to keep OSX and iOS separate. That way, they can focus the entertainment and consumption side of the equation on iOS, and concentrate workstation and professional stuffs on the Mac. In which case, they can keep up the same wide portfolio of products and keep everyone happy while having a legitimate reason to charge more for the "professional" products. It's not the same case for Microsoft because... Microsoft doesn't make anything other than software. Apple wants to eat the hardware sale, while Microsoft just needs to sell more softwares. Of course, that also means that Microsoft can either choose to diversify their products (I think they have been there and done that already... remember Windows XP Home, Pro, Media Center, Tablet Ed?), or they can choose to group all products together and spend less time (which translates to money) developing individual editions. The choice is obvious. Last edited by runawayprisoner; May 30th, 2012 at 23:25..

May 31st, 2012, 20:47	#645
KrossX クロッスエクス Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Argentina Posts: 3,649	http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/w...elease-preview Release preview! __________________

May 31st, 2012, 22:07	#646
runawayprisoner Level 9998 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Java Posts: 9,377	Cool! The video is completely broken on Mac and unwatchable on any computer with less than a Core 2 Duo as its processor. Heck, it doesn't even play on Linux since Linux doesn't have Silverlight. And it's only showing people watching videos, doing goofy stuffs... Oh wait, there was one instance when someone tried to pull up Microsoft Excel from... Metro... and the switch to desktop was laggy... and unsightly... Yep! ---- On a more serious note, I don't see anything different from Consumer Preview. Same ****ty performance on my HP Slate 2. Looks like Microsoft didn't learn... at all. Time to jump ship! Oh wait... Alright, no more jokes. Seriously, I don't know why they need a "release preview". Just release the damn thing already if they aren't changing anything.

May 31st, 2012, 23:08	#647
KrossX クロッスエクス Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Argentina Posts: 3,649	Blog post about the new things on the release preview: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2...e-preview.aspx And I just saw the video, and it reminds me of the intro video of Windows Me. XD __________________

June 1st, 2012, 06:50	#648
@ruantec Crazy GFX coder Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dominican Republic/Austria Posts: 8,119	@RAP I watched the video but i didn't noticed any lags... could it be your tablet? __________________ Current development tools: Visual C++.net, Visual C#.net Visual VB.net, Visual Webdeveloper.net Bloodshed Dev C++, Borland C++ Visual Basic 6

June 1st, 2012, 07:27	#649
Lasnap Elven-Dragon Mage Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,874	__________________ Love Knows No Bounds!

June 1st, 2012, 08:11	#650
@ruantec Crazy GFX coder Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dominican Republic/Austria Posts: 8,119	Hahahahahaha! good one __________________ Current development tools: Visual C++.net, Visual C#.net Visual VB.net, Visual Webdeveloper.net Bloodshed Dev C++, Borland C++ Visual Basic 6

June 1st, 2012, 08:25	#651
Lasnap Elven-Dragon Mage Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,874	History is bound to repeat itself at sometime and since Technology moves so dang fast repeats happen a lot quicker. Found the picture posted elsewhere and figured I would post it here for the laughs __________________ Love Knows No Bounds!

June 1st, 2012, 08:42	#652
@ruantec Crazy GFX coder Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dominican Republic/Austria Posts: 8,119	Cool! i personally will skip Windows 8 as much as i can so my plans are to buy a Samsung Slate 7 tablet PC and create my own interface for it with a full featured explorer which is what Metro lacks badly and in that way i will have a device that fits my needs. __________________ Current development tools: Visual C++.net, Visual C#.net Visual VB.net, Visual Webdeveloper.net Bloodshed Dev C++, Borland C++ Visual Basic 6

June 1st, 2012, 08:58	#653
Lasnap Elven-Dragon Mage Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,874	I agree about metro being half baked in its current form. They could do it so much better for both the desktop and mobile spaces. going to be hard working with the desktop explorer while on a tablet device for instance and that metro ui just doesnt work to well on a desktop. Whats with the annoying splash screen that you have to drag upwards before you can even login? __________________ Love Knows No Bounds!

June 1st, 2012, 09:23	#654
@ruantec Crazy GFX coder Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dominican Republic/Austria Posts: 8,119	What really bothers me about Metro is that is just a UI frontend and not fully integrated in the system as i expected from MS... even a small coder like me could write such a UI as i've proved with @ES and they need ages even having a whole team that works full time on it... and to complete the combo they haven't provided a file manager yet which is just sad. __________________ Current development tools: Visual C++.net, Visual C#.net Visual VB.net, Visual Webdeveloper.net Bloodshed Dev C++, Borland C++ Visual Basic 6

June 1st, 2012, 09:44	#655
Lasnap Elven-Dragon Mage Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,874	Yeah I noitced that by just messing around with both the developers and consumers preview and agree with everything you said in that post __________________ Love Knows No Bounds!

June 1st, 2012, 19:27	#657
Silenus Pilgrim Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Hyperion Posts: 6,897	I for one welcome our Metro overlords! __________________ DELL XPS 13 ULTRABOOK ...Mis sueños son mentiras que algun día dejarán de serlo...

June 1st, 2012, 22:59	#659
SCHUMI_4EVER Hackin 'n Slashin Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Most-expensive-Internet-on-the-Planet Land : South Africa Posts: 26,413	Looking at the image Lasnap posted it appears only 486s are supported __________________ Intel Core2Quad Q9550 (2.83Ghz stock) \| ASUS P5Q \| 2x2GB Transcend JetRam DDR2-800 \| ASUS ENGTX260\HDTP\896M \| Windows Vista Home Premium 64bit SP1 The Champ has retired but may his Legacy live on FOREVER !!!! No$GBA DS FAQ 2.0 Get it right fools! The glass is HALF-EMPTY, not half-full!!! !!! WARNING: Emulation requires a brain !!! WARNING: Emulation =/= Piracy !!!

June 2nd, 2012, 05:20	#660
Hard core Rikki Moving into the beat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Perpetual Hawaii Posts: 11,298	Tried the thing more. ...I'll skip 8, the wretched thing cripples productivity way too much. A shame, given the attractive technical advances unrelated to the UI. __________________ deviantART \| Blog \| VBA-M \| GeneralEmu \| XTemu \| FMVTool2 \| @ES \| Shendo new NGemu toolbar http://ngemu.ourtoolbar.com