Serious Bug In Pete's OGL and D3D Renderers

[Pontiac]

Okay, here we go, this is gonna be a long one but bear with me please.

I believe I have found a serious bug in the 3D render plugins for PSX emu's, specifically Pete's plugins. This does not apply to PeOpS software renderer, just all of his D3D and OGL plugins, each and every one of them.

How I came upon this, let me explain:

I am very particular to whether a game is playing in full sync or not okay, I like my vysnc and I like the game to run in sync with the refresh rate. Not all people notice this, but I must have 60 fps/60hz otherwise I notice tearing and blurring.

So of course, when setting up any game in EPSXE or similar, I have tried all of them, I always set Pete's plugins to fps limit on and 60fps forced. Of course I am playing NTSC games.

I first noticed this bug in Grandia. I had show fps display on. It was always reading 60fps (pete's internal FPS counter) but when the characters ran, and when the camera rotated around the 3D backgrounds, I could tell something just didn't seem right, the backgrounds were blurring and I could tell there was a syncing issue. I read somewhere on Pete's forums he said his fps display is only what his plugin is pumping, and not necessarily what FPS your computer is displaying. So i decided to download FRAPS, the popular FPS checker. And when I did, I noticed a serious and very strange problem. In certain seems, the FPS was halving to 30, and then sometimes to 15. After further research, in this game and many others, I was seeing a common occurence... I was getting 15FPS in FMV scenes, 30 FPS in in-game scenes, and 60fps only in menu screens like the title screens or ingame menu screens, basically 2D screens.

I could tell something wasn't right here. This was using OGL2.8 renderer originally. So I tried his latest D3D renderer, exactly the same problem. I noticed this problem in Grandia, Resident Evil 2 and 3, Dino Crisis, Lunar Silver Star, Lunar Eternal Blue, Breath of Fire 4, Final Doom... every game I have tried, EXACTLY the same issues.

Of course, I have tried the lowest quality settings on each renderer, which my machine could EASILY handle, and the highest quality settings, it makes no difference. This lead me to believe there is a weird FPS cap somewhere that halves ur FPS, depending on what image is being processed by the plugin.

To test this, I tried pretty much all of Pete's old plugins on his old downloads page, to see if it was just a bug in the latest versions or something, but sure enough, it was in all versions... pretty much....

Of course, I have tried messing around with my graphics card settings, turning vysnc off as I heard this can cause similar issues, but that makes no difference. I have tried pretty much every setting in the graphics card, no difference.

I have tried pretty much all the settings on the plugins, like instead of forcing FPS cap at 60, I have set it to auto-detect. That makes no difference either. It is as if it is forcing it to drop frames, even though the machines are easily capable of it.

I have tested this on 3 different machines, before anyone says it's my computer that is the problem. The only similarity of the computers is they are all using XP, but I cant see that as the problem. I have tested this on an Athlon 3700 single core based machine with a Geforce 7900 card, an Athlon 2000 based machine with a TNT2 card, and my machine: a Pentium D 820 machine with a Geforce 7300 GT card.

Of course, I have tried setting the emulator to using one core, to no avail, it is not a dual-core issue. It doesn't seem to be an issue with my hardware as I have tried it on other machines with EXACTLY the same issue: halving FPS.

Another weird thing is if I set the FPS to force at say, 120 fps on all machines, FRAPS will display 60 FPS constantly, but the game runs too fast like this of course.

It seems the renderers in most situations like to halve the FPS, basically, from what I have summised.

None of the machines have this issue with the PEops software plugin, or the non plugin emu PSX, it just affects the 3D plugins based on the PSEmu Pro plugin system.

One thing I have to say to Pete if he is reading this: all the plugins you have produced have exactly the same issue on all computers EXCEPT OGL2, version 2.0, the first OGL2 version. This is slightly different in that it will display 60fps during FMVs and 60 fps during menu's but still only 30 fps during ingame scenes!!!!! There must have been different code in that renderer. If I check the skip frame option in that renderer, it will perform EXACTLY the same as all the other versions, so I am pretty certain these plugins are forcing an FPS drop somehow, even with the option turned off.

IF anyone doubts me at all, can they please try it out for themselves? Run fraps and see what FPS your getting in different scenes of ur games. Say an FMV scene, say a title screen, and then say a ingame screen, I think you will be surprised....

Sorry for blabbing on about this, but please people, put me out of my misery and tell me there is a serious problem with these plugins!!!

[Cid Highwind]

This is pretty strange, however, I know that PSX movies are encoded at 15fps, and a lot of game scenes are locked at 30fps, while others might be at 60fps, like menus.

These are the framerates the real PSX console would render them, however your computer is still rendering the whole system at a solid 60+ fps.

I hope this explains it a bit?

It's definately not the speed or framerate the emulator is running, so don't worry about that. I guess the individual plugins just have a different method of telling FRAPS how many fps are being displayed, or that FRAPS is interpreting the FPS data different for each plugin.

[Shendo]

Try enabling PC fps calculation special fix with Pete's OpenGL 1.76, it will show the same fps like Fraps.

[Pontiac]

Thanks for replies.


Cid: I dont think that is right as in all of the games tested, playing them using the non plugin emu PSX, fraps displays a constant 60fps always and it just feels right, there is no tearing or anything, I can tell that is the fps that is meant to be.

Shendo: I have tried that, the pc fps fix makes no difference, FRAPS still displays half the fps that the plugin displays, so if it's displaying 60 fps, fraps will display 30.

[hushypushy]

if you turn PC FPS Calc on, it will show 30 FPS when it's running at max speed--that's what it's done every time i used it. are you sure you enabled special game fixes when you tested it?

anyway, what you said is not surprising. PSX games don't run at 60fps, they run at 60hz (NTSC). a lot of games run slower in certain scenes/places and that's just how they were programmed to be. some games play slower because the game is exhibiting slowdown (the GT games did this a lot).

by the way, have you mentioned this exact thing to Pete? if you post this in his forums, he'll probably read it and answer for you. for some reason he never comes around here...i PMed him a while ago and i didn't get an answer. then i went to his forum and he answered quickly

[Kazuya Mishima]

Originally Posted by Pontiac

Cid: I dont think that is right as in all of the games tested, playing them using the non plugin emu PSX, fraps displays a constant 60fps always and it just feels right, there is no tearing or anything, I can tell that is the fps that is meant to be.

Yes, that's ok because that's the way the authors decided it. Epsxe measures the fullspeed not by the amount of "real fps" that the Psx is producing. It measures the speed of the game in relation to 60 hz so 60 fps equals to 60 hz, the actual refresh rate of a Ntsc game.
What epsxe does is to convert the real fps to it's way of measuring the speed that is 60 fps.

[ViperXtreme]

yeah, just like they say, the 60FPS you see is most probably the speed of the emulation, not the framerate so the 60FPS means 100% emulation, the pc calc fix like the others said will show you the true framerate.

[Pontiac]

Viper, that is my point, the plugins are not giving me 100% emulation regardless of what the FPS says. There is no way that when u rotate the camera angle or walk along in 3D games like Dragon Warrior 7 or Grandia that I am meant to see that terrible slowdown like the characters and backgrounds are crawling through mud like I see in Pete's renderers. It's at that moment generally, too, that the FPS actually drops to between 20 and 30 so I get lag. Anyone explain that? And it's not that my system cant handle it - I get the same symptoms using PEte's DX6 renderer at the LOWEST quality settings as I do with the OGL2 renderer at the highest quality settings!!! Exactly the same problems with the framerate and lag.

I KNOW the games are not meant to be like that because playing them in PSX the non plugin emu, they are not like that and there is no slowdown.

[ViperXtreme]

how about trying them in the real PSX hardware? ive notice these framerate difference too long time since i use fraps to do some succesive screenshots.But the game doesnt look to be slowing down when those frames drop, it only looks like that when you see the fps counter on fraps.

[Pontiac]

The point is, the games do definitely look to be slowing down, it's not FRAPS that alerted me to this problem. I knew something was wrong when all the backgrounds and stuff blurred, I knew it wasnt supposed to be that way. But I knew for sure there was definite framerate drop when my characters ran through a town in Grandia. As the backgrounds changed from more simple small houses to more complex houses they were running past, they sort of slowed down, and then sped up again once they got past the complex scenery. During this time FRAPS and fraps alone reports a framerate drop from 30 fps, which I am certain is wrong anyway, to around 25-26 fps and then once it has past the complex scenery, back to 30 fps. It should ALL be at 60fps all the time.

I tested this in the emulator PSX and this is the case, and I see no slowdown when the characters run through complex scenery, and FRAPS reports 60fps constantly. I got my friend who has Grandia and a REAL PSX to test this on the hardware, the slowdown did not happen which means he was not getting the framerate drop. This and several other things lead me to believe there is a problem with these plugins and I see nothing so far to disparage these views, as it is only with these plugins that this problem occurs, it is ONLY when the PSX image is being processed through a hardware driven 3D plugin that these problems occur.

Also, I am wondering why no-one else seems to be noticing these problems in this thread. If anyone else does can they speak up? I think no-one has so far because of 4 reasons:

A: they think it is their hardware that is the problem, that their computer cannot handle it and that is why they get framerate drop. This is BS in this case as I have tested this on 3 capable machines at all quality levels and tried ALL configuration options. I have seen posts like mine before, but they have been left with no 100% answer and people probably get fed up with asking.

B: they think Pete's internal FPS counter is correct, when it never is in my experience. Using FRAPS will alert you to these problems.

C: And if then, people dont notice these problems it is simply because they arent used to and or dont care about playing games in full sync.

D: Certain games you wouldnt notice these problems with, I have to admit. I played through Resident Evil 3 and didnt notice this. Why? Because the backgrounds are pre-renderered, only the characters move around, so it isnt the ideal sort of game to notice a sync problem. It is much more noticable in a game that uses 3D backgrounds.

[Kazuya Mishima]

What is your configuration¿ Maybe is the framebuffer access config. If it's slowing down it's indeed your computer. Are you playing it straight of the cd?

[Pontiac]

Ok Ok... I think I am getting closer to something now....

It was the PC FPS Calc fix, that has made a difference for me now! Thanks to hushypushys post, I had realised that in all the testing with this fix I did check the box for the fix but not the "activate special game fixes" box to actually activate it!!!

Anyway okay, now I get some weird readings still. With the FPS calc fix on, FRAPS does indeed always show the same framerate as the plugin now... but here's the thing, I'm still having problems....

With that fix and autodetect FPS on, everything runs @ 30 fps, supposedly, but the FMVs are running way to fast, so fast that the sound is breaking up! The menu's run fine.... and actually ingame, when I speak to characters (this is in DW7), the text lines come up way too slow!!!! So FMVs are too fast, interaction with characters is too slow!!!! The actual walking around ingame though seems fine, and I get no FPS drop from 30 fps like i did before, it stays there....

ePSXe speed problem this guy here seems to have the same problem as me, however, no-one has resolved his problem yet either, DAMN!!!

If I force 60 fps with special fps calc on, everything looks smooth but everything runs too fast and again, the FMVs run even faster now than they did at autodetect!!!

There is still a definite syncing problem, can anyone help out with this? I had hoped this was a dual core issue, but setting the affinity to one core made no difference (with me or with the other poster with similar issue)

[Mako Eyes]

Not sure if this has any significance, but I was reading the article and noticed something I'm familiar with.

I've had the same problem using Lewpy's Glide with Breath of Fire IV. I noticed that it wasn't the normal slow down I was used to, music would still go like normal (whereas with "normal slow downs" the music would also slow down accordingly).

I check the frame rate and sure enough, 60. What exactly was going on I have no idea, but I think I made a post about it here a few years ago. So it's not all Pete's fault, there's something within the PSX instruction itself that's doing it. Or at least that's what I think.

[fivefeet8]

That speed issue has been around a long time with EPSXE and the hardware GPU pluggins. Pete tried to fix it with the PC FPS calc fix, but it kinda broke FMV speed. I had thought it was fixed now, but I guess in some games, it hasn't. The only real fix I found was when I was using Lewpy's Glide pluggin with my voodoo 5 5500 pci. Lewpy's glide plugin has a mixed FPS mode which fixed those slowdowns and also fixed MDEC speed as well.

The speed issue is especially apparant in Metal Gear Solid if you've played the game extensively on a real PSX. I however did find that PCSX did not have an issue with the game and it ran perfectly fine without FPS issues even without the FPS calc fixes.

[ViperXtreme]

ah now i get it, its the same thing i experienced in MGS when using OGL2 plugin, that unusual slowdown, the pc calc fix fixed it in the older OGL plugins, i thought you were talking about the different framerates on the game.

[Pontiac]

Okay, so now you guys are telling me, that this is infact a bug with all hardware driven plugins for the PSX. That the framerates never sync?

I know it isnt noticable in all games, but it is in most, and it's really annoying. It wouldnt be quite so bad if it actually stayed at 30 fps all the time ingame, rather than dropped as you pass through complex areas, only to raise up again. This doesn't happen with the FPS calc on, but that causes even more problems as I've described...

So Pete tried to fix this with FPS calc, but that just created even more problems so he ditched it. That makes sense. God damn!!! So basically, and correct me if im wrong here, we're forced either to put up with these god damn sync problems, or used a software plugin? Damn lol....

Fivefeet8: I noticed u said Lewpy's Glide has an option for mixed fps that seems to solve these issues. I havent got a voodoo card but ive heard u can use a Glide Wrapper. Anyone got a link to using a glide wrapper with Lewpy's? I think it's worth a shot at least... for the sake of a nice smooth game

Another thing is, I think we should bring all this to Pete's attention now, more specifically because of all of his plugins, they were all the same as I've stated before, EXCEPT for the OGL 2.0 plugin, first version of 2.0 renderer. That one was slightly different in that it DID INDEED play FMVs at the full 60fps, had no syncing problems there either, but STILL played 30 fps ingame... so something in that plugins code improved the issue, but did not solve it....

[fivefeet8]

It also might be an issue not entirely with the GPU pluggins. PCSX seems to not have this issue even with the Hardware GPU plugins and without the need for the special fixes. Probably something to do with the emulation of the GTE as well.

[Pontiac]

fivefeet8: I tried PCSX as u described, with the latest OGL2 render, and playing Final Fantasy 7, it does indeed stick at 60 fps ingame!!! 45 (?!) fps for fmvs, but thats no big deal.

However, when I booted Breath of Fire 3, that played 30 fps ingame You are correct, I suppose it's a matter of playing around with your plugins and emu's until you find what's best for you.... and indeed, I think this proves it's not only a problem with Pete's plugins, but the emus that they run on too...
It's just a shame PCSX has such a bad compatibility, It wouldn't even go past the credits of Resident Evil 3 or Dragon Warrior 7...

I hope one day the great PSX emu (not to be confused with PCSX!) will add some type of graphical enhancements, because that has to be the most smooth of all the emus... great compatibility, everything runs rock solid 60fps smooth as silk...

I tried a glide wrapper for lewpy's glide and it ran like crap, so that's a no-no too people lol.... here's hoping for the day they actually work out these graphical glitches with these hardware plugins and emus!

[Lewpy]

I believe what you are seeing is an issue in the core emulator, not in the hardware plugins.
Basically, it is the core emulator that should tell the GPU plugin when a VSync occurs, which fundamentally controls the screen refresh rate of emulation.
Pete and I have always found this to be problematic, as sometimes the core emulator signals the VSync too slowly, causing the slowdown described. I have options for the user to work round the problem, but generally this then causes the emulator to "over-clock", and therefore things like sound speed-up (they work off their own interrupts, which then occur too often).
Basically, in the early days, the GPU plugins set the speed of emulation by controlling when a screen-refresh occured. Pete re-wrote the code to allow the core emulator to control it via the VSync signal. In an ideal world, this would work perfectly .... we live in a far from ideal world So my plugin has options for old code, new code, and "hybrid" (a kinda mix, when it feels it needs to). Pete uses new code normally, but "PC FPS" option uses old code.

Hope that clears it up

[BeNooL]

now this is an interesting thread.
I'm not sure if this exactly on topic but keep in mind, that VSync and/or triple buffer options in your graphic card driver may cause your fps to be the closest multiple of your screen refresh rate (eg 1/1 = 60fps, 1/2 = 30fps etc).
Maybe sometimes your pc can't hit the 60fps mark and then vsync falls back to 30...