Some Piracy Protection (I think)

[Gamesoul Master]

I thought I did recall ePSXe being able to play some copy-protected games without the need for subcode, but I'd imagine it'd be due to some hack specific to those situations. I could be wrong though, but I thought on the official forums, I did recall a few people complaining that pSX wouldn't start on a game that ePSXe had no problems starting with.

But... maybe that was mod-protection they were talking about. My memory sucks too much to remember that kind of thing at this time... LOL.

[Squall-Leonhart]

Originally Posted by patrickp

LOL! No problem, jonc. You post here a lot and Squall does sometimes, so I know you're both Ok.

just ripped FF8 to bin/cue, image boots fine from both Run iso and Run CDRom(mounted from alcohol)

Logger states
Read Subchannel : Yes
SubChannel OK.

Bin unlike ISO, stores the TOC, that makes a mega difference in PSX emulation.

All PSX games have protection (Libcrypt) how ever, only some take it to the extent of putting digital markers in the sub channel to prevent copying.

ISO is not the best format for attempting to rip a damaged disk to either, other formats seem to have better error correction capabilities.

And for all your satisfactory conclusions, Yes, the Bin format DOES contain subcode, the subcode is stored in the Bin file itself, though it isn't as complete as the subcode from other formats, look at CDRWin if you wish being that Bin is the format used in that, and it contains subcode reading options, then it OBVIOUSLY supports sub channel data, the lack of a sub file doesn't mean jack there is still some subcode contained in the bin file,
It might not contain the full Subchannel that other formats do, but it contains more then the ISO format does, and so can pull off bypassing the protection, somehow.

Heres your proof:

[patrickp]

Originally Posted by Squall-Leonhart

just ripped FF8 to bin/cue, image boots fine from both Run iso and Run CDRom(mounted from alcohol)

Logger states
Read Subchannel : Yes
SubChannel OK.

Yes, the NTSC-US version of Final Fantasy VIII is not protected, Squall, so you should have no problem playing it from a properly ripped .bin/.cue image in a Playstation emulator, and nor is Chrono Cross, your other example. In fact no NTSC-US games are copy protected; a few, but not many are mod protected. Because of this, most Playstation emulator users in the NTSC-US region simply never encounter any form of protection, and don't have a very clear idea what is involved. Copy protection is comparatively common in PAL and NTSC-J games, although still the exception rather than the rule, so PAL users, as I know as I live in the UK, are much more likely to encounter copy protection and thus are more likely to be aware of the situation - although perceptions are still likely to be unclear.

Some subchannel reading is necessary to read any CD This subcode (which is simply certain bytes per frame allocated as subcode) is used for various aspects of reading a CD; any optical drive should be able to read this.

Bin unlike ISO, stores the TOC, that makes a mega difference in PSX emulation.

Yes, many Playstation games are multi track - typically, sound, music and video are among the information stored in the extra tracks. Information about these tracks are stored in the .cue file in the .bin/.cue format, in the .ccd file in the .ccd/.img/.sub format, and in the .mds file in the .mdf/.mds format. As you point out, the .iso format doesn't include such a descriptor file, so the extra tracks are ignored. This may have effects of anything from sound effects or music not being played, to the game not working.

All PSX games have protection (Libcrypt) how ever, only some take it to the extent of putting digital markers in the sub channel to prevent copying.

There is subcode protection on all Playstation CDs to prevent copied CDs from playing on a Playstation (this is, of course, one of the purposes of a mod chip, to bypass the subcode read that prevents the copy playing, but I assume this protection is standard in all games and hence easy to bypass; this usually seems to be done in emulators) and to enable a Playstation only to play games from one region. But this isn't Libcrypt protection, which is found only on some PAL and NTSC-J games. This is the most common of the protection types called copy protection, and its purpose is, as you say, to prevent the game from being copied. There are several different types of copy and mod protection, so it's not so easy to bypass them. In pSX, with copy protection, it's sufficient to enable it to read the subcode properly (this is subcode that is not present in an image format such as .bin/.cue, only in .ccd/.img/.sub and .mdf/.mds formats), whether reading from CD or image, and it can play the game. ePSXe can also do this, but only with a CDR plugin that can rip the sub code from the CD separately, and provide it for the game when it's played. ePSXe doesn't appear to be capable of reading this kind of subcode directly from a CD, or an image containing it - at least, it never was when I was using it. Mod protection works somewhat differently; there are instructions in the game (enabled through subcode) to check the machine for alterations such as a mod chip. Without subcode reading, the game doesn't work; with subcode reading, the game works, but does what it's supposed to, checks the emulator, decides it's an altered Playstation and goes to the Piracy screen. Oddly, this can be bypassed in many mod protected games (in pSX, at any rate), by using a PAL BIOS (remeber all mod protected games are NTSC-US). I don't know why.

ISO is not the best format for attempting to rip a damaged disk to either, other formats seem to have better error correction capabilities.

True. Also, as you pointed out earlier, the .iso format doesn't support multi track images.

And for all your satisfactory conclusions, Yes, the Bin format DOES contain subcode, the subcode is stored in the Bin file itself, though it isn't as complete as the subcode from other formats, look at CDRWin if you wish being that Bin is the format used in that, and it contains subcode reading options, then it OBVIOUSLY supports sub channel data, the lack of a sub file doesn't mean jack there is still some subcode contained in the bin file,
It might not contain the full Subchannel that other formats do, but it contains more then the ISO format does, and so can pull off bypassing the protection, somehow...

Yes, all CD image formats must include some subcode in order for applications to be able to read it, but this is not the subcode that is used for protection. I think the subcode that is needed to satisfy the game's check for region and whether a CD/image has been copied is probably simply bypassed in an emulator (and in a mod chipped Playstation), rather than the subcode being read. Otherwise, we'd see games not playing in an emulator if not used with the appropriate BIOS - and, as we all know, with a few exceptions, in an emulator you can play any region game with any region BIOS.

However, the subcode that is needed to defeat copy and mod protection is not included in any image formats other than .ccd/.img/.sub and .mdf/.mds. AFAIK including subcode was actually one of the reasons these formats were developed.

[Squall-Leonhart]

My original disks for FF8 are PAL-UK, i'll rerip them when im at my computer and screenshot the results of using bin images,

[patrickp]

Well while we're waiting for you to do this, Squall, I did the same with my copy of Final Fantasy VIII (game IDs SLES-02080, SLES-12080, SLES-22080 and SLES-32080). Results in pSX: .bin/.cue images don't play. .ccd/.img/.sub images play fine. Of my two DVD drives, one is a DVD-ROM that doesn't read subcode well, and one is a DVD-RW that reads subcode fine: the game won't play from the DVD-ROM, but plays fine from the DVD-RW.

Since I'm using Linux, the native IOControl driver supports subcode reading just fine; however, if you're using Windows, you should bear in mind that the Windows IOControl driver doesn't appear to allow subcode reading (at the copy protection level, anyway - it has to allow the more basic level simply to read a CD-ROM properly), so you should use an alternative driver that allows this, such as ASPI.

[Squall-Leonhart]

alcohol afaik, uses the IOCTL and theres never been a sub reading issue with that.

[patrickp]

No, Alcohol uses the SPTD driver and CloneCD uses its own proprietary driver, Squall.

The Linux IOControl driver reads subcode properly, but the Windows one appears to block some parts of the subcode - including that commonly used for copy protection. That's certainly why the specialist game ripping/burning applications use their own drivers.

[NEOSEPHIROTH]

Try a experiment and run a image from dameon tools its free and supports all the old copy protections of ps1 era

[Squall-Leonhart]

patrick, Alcohol can use ASPI, IOCTL or its own internal Driver, however i usually set it to use IOCTL for disk ripping, which has never had an issue yet.

[Hawke]

I haven't heard of this before. What games aren't playable in ISO format? If someone can get a list going, I'd be interested in reading it.

[NEOSEPHIROTH]

Hawke= Id= Fai From Xenogears I Did Have Trouble With Ff Origins

[Squall-Leonhart]

Originally Posted by Hawke

I haven't heard of this before. What games aren't playable in ISO format? If someone can get a list going, I'd be interested in reading it.

NGEmu - Ppf

All of the games on that list, won't.
That list how ever, excludes, games with CDDA tracks