We have a responsability after all...

[Nucking Futs]

I've been thinking about this subject a lot the past years, and i also talked to quite many people about this lately. I've also talked to 3 different shrinks about this and some things popped into my mind this weekend.

It all started very unforeseeably when a friend of mine said "Music is Emotion". When she said that i didn't think that much of the meaning of this sentence, but i agreed and we talked other stuff.

One day later i was out again dancing on a great party, and the music was so good that i was able to do what i call "mediatition dancing". It's like Meditating but other than concentrating on your breath you concentrate on the emotion of the music. And while i was "gone" a lot of other stuff popped into my head.

So i took out my mobile phone and wrote down as much as i could remember later on. One sentence was (and funnily it came to my mind in english) "The joy of Art is the hope that it doesn't reveal itself to one". This idea got me thinking, if you mix the meaning of this sentence with "music being emotion" then you have a link between your emotions and their drive for something special/unexplainable.

I even go as far to say that being in love and sharing love with someone is that exact feeling, it's getting to know/understand another. When you have no secrets in front of another person, you can be truly free, and feel truly loved for the person you are. That's something i learned in the last year. I'm not saying that i'm living this life, but i'm heading into that direction and i feel its right.

But to come back to the point of this thread. Another thing popped into my mind, it's something i talked to miretank some time ago. It's about the feeling that you have when you think you are not being accepted, or feel alienated, or not understood by your surroundings. It's funny because it fits exactly into the "feeling understood" topic. But truth is that every person is an individual.

Before i go on with that matter though i want to add here that every person wants to please somebody/something. Behind every action, behind everything you do is the idea of doing it right. Consciously or subconsciously, whatever one does is to make it right for somebody, who that is depends on the person, but in my opinion the majority of people are not trying to please themselves. Most of the time we try to fit a standard.

Back to what i said before, "Every person is an own individual, but most of the people try to fit into a standard". This leads to feeling alone, it leads to feeling neglected for being different. We can all see every day (on tv) how life could be and whatnot, and forget to ask ourselves what we want. I felt like this for a long time, but i won't let myself be told what to like or not anymore. I want to have my own opinions, i want to have my own feelings and i want to be myself.

It's not like this is something new to humanity, it's well known i guess. But i'm still not at the point i want to talk to you about. Everything i wrote until now is just to show about what i'm actually trying to talk to you, and how important this whole subject is.

So if you could follow me until here then i want to tell you what bothers me about this matter. It's atheism. It doesn't fit into this perspective. Let me tell you why. Atheism simply destroys Art by saying it is mathematically explainable, it destroys Love because it's just chemical reactions in your brain, it destroys me as a person because i am just a biological machine in the end.

Yes, i know it's another religion talk thread, if the mods think this is not approriate i hope this will get moved in the "the bin" and not be deleted because it really means a lot to me and i would really like to discuss this matter.

Well back to my point. Maybe you wonder why i bring this topic up again, i do this because i think we have a responsability to think about the future. We are at a point in life where we can change our minds, and still are ourselves. So what should we do? Stop all Scientific Researches? No. The only thing i want is to reconsider the direction our life is pointing to.

When i look at the future i see the loss of individuality, i see the loss of art and i see the loss of love. Why? Because in the end it's all just "chemical reactions" caused in your brain. It will be like:" Oh, you don't want to feel bad anymore because she left you? Just take 2 of these pills for the next few days and you'll be fine". Or:" Check him out, he thinks he likes {insert artist here} because he {insert what happened to cause this} some while ago".

So what can we do about this? Well, one of the major points that i was able to learn is that being extreme is not a good way to live. People are pending between extremes most of the time, like "oh no, i got dumped by xy, i feel sooooo unloved", or "oh i'm sooooo in love, i would do everything for xy". We need to find a middleway for ourselves. Which means we need to reconsider the way we live. We need to reconsider what we eat. And on top of all, we need to consider how we treat each other.

This sounds all like nice talking but not implementable, well it is a freaking hard task already, imagine what it will be like in 10 or 20 years. Yes that's right, we have get clear with ourselves because the way we are just living our lives away is just sad.

I really don't want to offend anybody with this thread, maybe i do, but in the end i just want you to understand and maybe even like me.

[Proto]

So if you could follow me until here then i want to tell you what bothers me about this matter. It's atheism. It doesn't fit into this perspective. Let me tell you why. Atheism simply destroys Art by saying it is mathematically explainable, it destroys Love because it's just chemical reactions in your brain, it destroys me as a person because i am just a biological machine in the end.

/me slaps his forehead. How many times have we gone through this?

Science and art, from my perspective are not polar opposites that somehow oppose each other as you somehow try to imply. The fact that you know that a sunset gets painted in red because of the inclination of the sun rays at that specific moment and its subsequent particular refraction does not refrain you, in any sense from being in awe in front of such scenery. The fact that such "awe" feeling is just a stimulation of a particular area of the brain that deals with abstract feelings and imagination does not stop you from savouring the moment the sun sets. The fact that you understand how the human machinery works to the most minute detail does not strip you from your value as a person, it just gives a new perspective to life.

Even if we can explain most of the things that are around us from an intellectual point of view does not strip make those things be worth less, and that is an stereotype I want you to get out of your mind about us atheist. The fact that there is no God for us, and that things those not have any intrinsic value and that I am nothing but a computational machine reacting to external stymule could seem as the emptiest thing in the world to you. But for us atheist, it just means that the universe is a world of possibilities. It means that my life is not just worth as much as some random God decided for me, but instead it is worth as much as I want it to be. I am the God of my particular universe, I am the sole observer of my absolute reality, and as such the value of the things I see and interact with depends entirely and solely on me. From that point of view, atheism recognizes our value as individuals much more than any theist philosophy will ever achieve. The value in that my destiny, purpose, raison de être and life depends on what I want to make out of it.

I could tackle the other points you mentioned like the future and its direct repercussion on individuality, but that is a different topic altogether. If you want us to tackle it create another thread for it (like, more than an introduction for a debate it seemed more like a rant, you touched like 7 different topics, I just choosed one of them hoping it was the main one ^_^)

[Player-X]

I would skip retyping what Proto said as I would say the same thing, however I would add that the more I understand something the more there is to learn about it, I that kind as another layer in beauty beyond what is obvious, philosophically speaking I don't see how knowing more about something lessens it's intrinsic beauty but instead infinitely enhances it.

Individuality exist but we also fit into categories based on similar traits, for example we put people into races based on their ethnicity but each of them is unique and might share the same categories with other people such as their profession, it is the way someone fits into these independent categories that makes them unique, no two people not even twins can fit into the exact same set of categories.

"Individuality is not about if we stand out but where we fit in" - Me



Without going into the theological side of things and staying with philosophy I think that a creator would lessen the value of an individuals life, after all if there is a creator it would mean that we belong to it and that would be in a way ownership of a person, it would also mean that a creator can create a hundred of the exact same person if it is so inclined to do so which further degrades the value of a person's life, an afterlife also makes life worth even less as it would (under the law of supply and demand) mean that this life is much less precious if not worthless.

edit:

I before we go into the definition of life, I think the definition is diffrent depending on the complexity of the life in question, if it's simple like protein chains the definition is if can replicate itself using the resources around it, if it gets more complex like a cell then it has to be self sustaining, more complex than that like simple plants and it would have to be able to grow and sustain itself and so forth.

[jonc2006]

you all think too much.

[StriderVM]

Play games.

Sorry, can't resist. Anyway, most people live out their lives that way, I don't. I guess that makes me unusually happy, but seems to be more distant to most people. It just seems to be how we describe such things. Another man's trash is another man's treasure.

[makotech222]

Originally Posted by StriderVM

Play games.

Sorry, can't resist. Anyway, most people live out their lives that way, I don't. I guess that makes me unusually happy, but seems to be more distant to most people. It just seems to be how we describe such things. Another man's trash is another man's treasure.

meh this is what the internet is for. sharing ones ideas to others and getting feedback. i dont ahve enough attention to read the whole thing, but i do kinda agree with proto, even though im a catholic.

[Nucking Futs]

@ Proto:

You mentioned that example about the sunset and that knowing why it's beautifull doesn't mean it won't stay beautiful. What bothers me is that you think there is a reason why i get think it's beautiful. Like," it is beautiful because i have gone through a lack, of love in my early life, and the color red stimulates xy of my body which produces xy and therefore i like sunsets".

If someone were to tell me this, it would loose the magic. It would loose the thing i like about it, the emotion. The emotion is the thing that i don't fully understand about it. That's why i'm in love with sunsets. If you give me the explanation it's just drug consumption. In the end it all comes down to use being addicted to all kinds of drugs. And as soon as you figured out what is good about something someone will "produce" something to overcome what is there. In this case, "Yo, come all check out my new sunset production machine, it not only features the same emotions you have with a real one, you also get blablabla". This is what scares me!

[Player-X]

You can look at it that way but I look beyond just that, how does xy work, what does it trigger and what does that trigger and how does it trigger it and so forth, infinite complexity, infinite beauty.

You can also know something but just appreciate it as it is, just like you know the sunrise is caused by the earth's rotation and the angle of the sun relative to you cause the sunlight to appear red due to the amount of air between you and the sun but you can still just look at it and say "oohhhh....".

[Nucking Futs]

Do you think this way of thinking is applyable to the future of mankind?

[Player-X]

Who knows? I think that in the foreseeable future the average person would know as much as the average person today although I think they will know about different things things but philosophically would be quite similar to today so it could or could not apply to all of humanity.

Some people like things simple so it would not apply to them but some people like me like to know more about things, that's why we have scientists and researchers, they like to know more about something never satisfied with what they already know, this is what sparked the renaissance, the industrial revolution and the digital revolution.

There will always be things that we instinctively will find beautiful at the basic level regardless of how much we actuaily know about it.

[Boltzmann]

Originally Posted by Nucking Futs

So if you could follow me until here then i want to tell you what bothers me about this matter. It's atheism. It doesn't fit into this perspective. Let me tell you why. Atheism simply destroys Art by saying it is mathematically explainable, it destroys Love because it's just chemical reactions in your brain, it destroys me as a person because i am just a biological machine in the end.

Well, as an atheist I don't feel offended, but I do think that I'm being misunderstood.

For starters, let me make all of Proto's words my own.

But in addition, let me ask you: what's the alternative to naturalistic explanations?

Do you really think that love is made more beautiful if you say that you cannot understand it. Is lack of understanding supposed to be aesthetically pleasing?

Or do you believe that love in uncaused and independent of your brain? This hypothesis does not add one iota of meaningfullness back into love, if you ask me.

As an atheist, I'm always looking for naturalistic explanations. And even though I *know* that love is just a bunch of chemical reactions in my brain, it doesn't stop me from feeling it and appreciating it. Atheists can get married too

You know that hunger is also caused by chemical reactions, but it does not stop you from eating or enjoying food, does it? Knowledge doesn't make it any less tasty, nor does it stop me from going to T.G.I. Friday's and paying their outrageous prices

No, I won't accept a lie because it's supposed to make me feel good. I'll take the truth and be happy anyway (or even happier, because I really enjoy understanding stuff).

The fact that we have subjective experiences at all is amazing, but don't downplay it by ascribing metaphysical properties to it.

[kinzuagolfer]

Originally Posted by Player-X

You can look at it that way but I look beyond just that, how does xy work, what does it trigger and what does that trigger and how does it trigger it and so forth, infinite complexity, infinite beauty.

Originally Posted by Player-X

You can also know something but just appreciate it as it is, just like you know the sunrise is caused by the earth's rotation and the angle of the sun relative to you cause the sunlight to appear red due to the amount of air between you and the sun but you can still just look at it and say "oohhhh....".

Originally Posted by Nucking Futs

Do you think this way of thinking is applyable to the future of mankind?

The today and Tomorrow will have significant similarities. These similarities will go to more extremes. There will be a large majority that notices they like something be it a sunset, or the smell of a flower. This group will not think beyond that. Not a thought about how or why. I feel that in this group will be those that think nothing of what religious belief they have grown up with. They just simply believe.

What the next significant group will be is those that question their surroundings. I believe that a significant percentage of these individuals will question and change their religious beliefs or cast aside the idea of a supreme and absolute god of sorts. Questioning why a flower’s sent is pleasant doesn’t take away from that pleasant feeling you get from it. Understanding how a wave crashes against the rocks takes nothing away from what power it possesses. Knowing of the chemical reactions involved with the sent of a flower or the view of a sunset is no different. Its impact on an individual or environment is still present.

I find myself to question nearly everything. I am also an atheist. Throughout my thought on religion I come to the conclusion that belief in such an afterlife is for pure comfort.

*cutting and pasting with word for a spell checker, so I'm not sure why it split up Player-X's quote.

[industrian]

Originally Posted by Nucking Futs

[tl;dr]

Someone needs to lay off the drugs.

[Nucking Futs]

Originally Posted by industrian

Someone needs to lay off the drugs.

So what are you trying to tell me by that? Being worried about the future and the current situation means that i'm taking drugs?

[DB7]

I agree that knowing what makes something beautiful, does not take away from that beauty.

I know how clouds form but I am constantly amazed by the infinite variety of their shapes and sizes I can see just by going for a walk on a summers afternoon.

[industrian]

Originally Posted by Nucking Futs

So what are you trying to tell me by that? Being worried about the future and the current situation means that i'm taking drugs?

Now you're just taking this way too seriously. I was simply making a street-level observation on your brilliant paragraph:

Originally Posted by Nucking Futs

One day later i was out again dancing on a great party, and the music was so good that i was able to do what i call "mediatition dancing". It's like Meditating but other than concentrating on your breath you concentrate on the emotion of the music. And while i was "gone" a lot of other stuff popped into my head.

Sounds like a very good trip to me. Whoa dude, I'm smelling colours! Atheism is destroying art, mannnnnn!

[Player-X]

You can get high without drugs.

[Nucking Futs]

Originally Posted by Player-X

You can get high without drugs.

Especially when you've tried them before and know/trust yourself well enough to be able to "let go", but that's another topic.

@ DB7
The fact that i know how clouds form etc does not make them uglier, that's not what i'm trying to say, my point is that the human tendency is to take it to extremes whenever possiblem if there were enough people who would adore clouds as you may do one of them would all of a sudden start producing his own clouds, even flashier etc...

I don't say "stop all science it's bad", i like to investigate things myself, what i say is we need to take care how far we go. I say we need to define the human as something else than just a machine. And this is where atheism is in the way, atheism does not allow a human to be "creative", a human can always just be reacting to the outside world the way he/she was "formed" by his/her former life.

[Player-X]

Originally Posted by Nucking Futs