French elections 2007: The Surprising Results

[Hard core Rikki]

A few minutes ago, the results of the french elections were revealed. With a tight score. NICOLAS SARKOZY is the new president of France !!

NICOLAS SARKOZY, with 53% of the french voters' voices, roughly 17 millions people.

SEGOLENE ROYAL got only 47%, wich is actually surprinsingly high, especially given her 'feminine condition'...

[Mr. Killjoy]

I voted Segolene. All the ppl I know also did, I sometimes wonder if votes are something else than an illusion of choice. Bleh... we made fun of US election when Bush won. Twice. Your turn now

[_E_]

so the frenchies are officially stupid now, eh? Oh well, can't say much here, we have mini-bush ( harper ) to deal with >_>

[Coolsvilleman]

Originally Posted by _E_

so the frenchies are officially stupid now, eh? Oh well, can't say much here, we have mini-bush ( harper ) to deal with >_>

Ya... sucks to be us!

[industrian]

As far as I'm concerned, I'd have preferred Royal to have won the French election because it gives me something good to look at. But in all honesty, France had as much choice as America did in 2004 (as in: none.)

The one thing I'm really glad of though is that the French didn't make a ****ing fool of themselves again and allow Le Pen through into the second round. That previous election result still leaves me with a bad impression of my Auld Alliance buddies.

And in other news, the Scottish National Party made freaking history by becoming the largest party in Scotland the other day!! (Our elections were on the 4th.) I voted for them as well. You may quite possibly see a referendum for Scottish independence within the next four years. The future looks bright for us Scots at least.

[CKemu]

Well frankly I hope if you guys do get independence, the UK treats you as a foreign nation, requiring you to have passports, re-negotiate trade, negotiate standing in the UN (what standing )/ EU etc. Treated with import / export tax with the UK etc...because frankly you want independance, you can pay for it like every other nation....yes watch your economy drop into the stone age.

It's bloody pathetic, the world needs to be uniting, not seperating up into more worthless zones....

Regarding France...I smell riots and more riots on the way, if I recall correctly he's pretty Nazi / racist, and that country is plagued with racism which makes UK's ethnic issues seem minute.

[Seta-San]

this gives me the tiniest bit of hope for the french people

[CKemu]

Because you're a bigot who cuddles Bush plushies?

[Player-X]

Seta I want to ask what's your problem with the French?

[makotech222]

nah i like the guy better from the small amount of info i heard. isnt he in support of a free economy/market?

[CKemu]

Why player-x, why? Why would you ask him to describe his 'issues' you're practically saying "hey look, minefield over there...lets see if we can race across it!"

[Boltzmann]

Originally Posted by CKemu

It's bloody pathetic, the world needs to be uniting, not seperating up into more worthless zones....

Although I can't exactly agree with the way you phrase it, I do agree that what we need the most is unity. But the terms of this unity are of the utmost importance, or else we stand to lose a lot (like in South America, where every other country is out to screw Brazil).

[Player-X]

Originally Posted by CKemu

Why player-x, why? Why would you ask him to describe his 'issues' you're practically saying "hey look, minefield over there...lets see if we can race across it!"

Isn't that the whole point of this?

[CKemu]

Player-X: Cost vs Reward comes to mind.

Boltzmann: One muses how you might phrase it then? The terms of unity are indeed an important factor, in a 'perfect' world simply being human and looking out for the common good of humanity might be considered unity enough, but alas this is not that 'pseudo-perfect world'.

I see little gain for Scotland if it achieved independance, beyond "oh looky, we're so proud to be Scottish, in our little zone of Scotishness", if there are issues effecting the common good of their people, talk and work through unity would be significantly preferrable over once again putting walls ontop of our little invisible geographic lines.

However this is a thread on French elections, and I somewhat fear for Frances ethnic minorities with the recent election result. Shame she didn't manage to win, it would have made a change to see a female world leader, esp one that is left winged.

[Lord Budweiser]

At least there is Michelle Bachelet, who (IMO) will never be as influent as Segolene Royal could be eventually.

[industrian]

Originally Posted by CKemu

yes watch your economy drop into the stone age.

Ah, that old chestnut. People who oppose Scottish independence need to actually learn how to discuss the issue instead of making threats that pander to a totally unjustified fear of economic collapse or that just simplifies the independence movement into the blind actions of a bunch of anti-English racists. The idea behind Scottish independence is about self determination, and about being able to take control of our own matters.

As for the economic issues. We won't be as rich as England, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Countries like Ireland, Denmark, Iceland, and Finland manage on their own, and to be honest Scotland has more potential than them.

The whole point of the Scottish parliament in the first place was because after years and years of being butt****ed by the Tories, we felt powerless to do anything of our own accord. This entire motif of feeling like second-class citizens of the UK is fairly deep-rooted into the Scottish psyche now due to many factors - our culture being uprooted, our language being called a "bastardisation" of English that's only fit for gutter trash to speak, Gaelic being wiped out, the Clearances, etc. Since Blair came to power, Scots have began to retain their dignity. Blair treated us well and basically said: "hey, you don't need independence. Here's a parliament where you can discuss your own matters. Because as everyone knows, Scottish MPs in the House of Commons can't do **** due to being heavily outnumbered." Blair was good in that sense, and to be honest, a Scottish parliament with the restricted powers it has right now probably is the best scenario in the "perfect world." However, due to Labour domination (and everyone knows how corrupt those guys are nowadays) - nothing has changed. Nothing will change, not as long as Labour are in power in both the UK and Scottish parliaments. If not full independence, maybe Alex Salmond and his epic SNP/Lib-Dem/Green coalition can at least USE the powers of the Scottish parliament instead of just doing what Blair tells them to (as McConnell did before them.)

Personally, I'd like to see either full Scottish independence or the complete re-evaluation of the Act of Union that would grant full country status to both Scotland and England. Each would have a First Minister but with one Prime Minister above them. Kind of like a two-country EU if you get what I mean.

[CKemu]

Aren't your matters our matters and vice versa, it angers me that independance is thrown up like this when I consider unity in these times to be of the upmost importance.

I bring up the 'old chestnut' as many scots I know tend to think that magically they'll remain on the same foothold of the economic and world political ladder and England is going to treat them the same as ever.

Gaelic being wiped out, you'd blame us for that? English (and all sub forms (aka American English)) is a major language of this planet, smaller languages (those with few speakers on a world scale) are bound to be driven out or morphed into a more global language, it's happened throughout world history...and is perfectly natural.

I've never heard anyone consider Gaelic a bastardisation of English, nor something gutter trash would speak, perhaps thats just my social circle eh? If you want gutter trash..try Sheffield..init

Manage your own affairs? I'm not Scottish so beyond a global scale I wouldn't know your 'at home' affairs, I'd assume education and/with culture are primary concerns for any scot, however I'm a firm believer that modern man needs to unify and resolve these concerns, rather than split up like school kids in a playground, to divide will only encourage hostility and less understanding....your independance will probably come a greater cost than many of Scotlands citizins immediately recognise.

[industrian]

Originally Posted by CKemu

I bring up the 'old chestnut' as many scots I know tend to think that magically they'll remain on the same foothold of the economic and world political ladder and England is going to treat them the same as ever.

We'll never be on par with England financially. Then again Scotland has 5 million people compared to England's 50 million. Scotland however has great "human" resources - scientiific and technical knowledge especially. Our education system is 1st class and history has proven time and time again that we're a very industrious nation. Our economy would take a hit in the short term, but with the relaxation of our exchange rate, you'd see a lot of investment in our readily-available facilities.

Most people I know agree with me that we Scots have got over the demise of the British Empire, and we're more than happy to just sit next to Ireland instead of trying to remain a regional or world power. Scotland has no need for nuclear weapons, submarines, or anything that could make us "big" on the political map. Give us our "wee bit hill and glen" and we'll be happy with it.

Originally Posted by CKemu

Gaelic being wiped out, you'd blame us for that?

I'd prefer to keep words like "us" and "them" out of this. In the Anglo-Scots context we're in it has certain connotations.

About Gaelic: the Highland clearances pretty much destroyed it (as it did to the identity of a lot of Scots.) 50,000-100,000 speak it now though, so it's not dead yet.

Originally Posted by CKemu

I've never heard anyone consider Gaelic a bastardisation of English, nor something gutter trash would speak, perhaps thats just my social circle eh? If you want gutter trash..try Sheffield..init

Scotland has two native languages. Gaelic and Scots. Scots is a distinct language, but due to it's similarities with English it just gets called either Scottish slang, or corrupted English. Whereas Gaelic was used almost exclusively in the Highlands, Scots was universal. When the Act of Union hit, every rich person learnt English so that they could move to England and become even richer. Over time this left just the working classes speaking Scots. This brushed off on the language, and it became "the poor man's language" next to English. Again, over time this became law when the law decreed that it wasn't a language to be used by "educated" people.

Sorry to semi-rant about that, but the fact I've been taught (technically) a foreign language all my life instead of one of two native ones kinda pisses me off. I'd like to be able to speak fluent Scots and to write in that language, but all I know is bits and pieces of it that have survived in regional dialects. And even if I could speak it, the stigma of it is that deep that I'd be automatically assumed to be some ill-educated brute who just crawled out of the River Clyde if I ever decided to use it.

Originally Posted by CKemu

Manage your own affairs? I'm not Scottish so beyond a global scale I wouldn't know your 'at home' affairs, I'd assume education and/with culture are primary concerns for any scot, however I'm a firm believer that modern man needs to unify and resolve these concerns, rather than split up like school kids in a playground, to divide will only encourage hostility and less understanding....your independance will probably come a greater cost than many of Scotlands citizins immediately recognise.

I don't see us losing anything. The SNP are a bunch of European social democrats, so we'll remain in the European Union and all other major international agreements. It's not as if we're becoming North Korea or something. Scotland and England will always remain favourable trading partners, closest allies, and friends whether in union or not.

[Proto]

Umm... sorry for just butting in, but I'd just like to clarify something

Industrian, if I understand correctly, your arguments could be put like this?:

- Cultural influence by the English has lead to a good deal of Scottish culture to be lost.
- Economical and political influence in both England and Scotland is centralized in the hand of a political party that is deemed as corrupt by most people in Scotland.

On the other hand, independence is plausible because:
- Scotland is self-sufficient to a point, with some industries being top-notch like education and the such. Even if there are other that would be affected greatly in the case independence is attained, and this would cause the loss of its status as a first-world nation, it wouldn't be that bad since the majority of people in Scotland isn't that ambitious in that aspect.

If there is something I'm missing please tell me.

Disclaimer: Please not that I am actually against the concept of nationalism, in my view it's a concept proper of the 18th century that turned outdated in the 20th century. However, I truly want to understand your POV and not be seen as a globalization freak

[industrian]

Originally Posted by Proto

Cultural influence by the English has lead to a good deal of Scottish culture to be lost.

Yes. That is to be expected in a country where a much-smaller nation is swallowed by a larger one.

Also: I need to stress that the Act of Union itself was not a democratic choice, with Scottish politicians of the time proclaiming that for every one person for union, there were one hundred against.

Originally Posted by Proto

Economical and political influence in both England and Scotland is centralized in the hand of a political party that is deemed as corrupt by most people in Scotland.

The Scottish Parliament was given powers to do pretty much everything (except from issues like defence, nuclear policy, relations with Europe, etc). The Parliament can choose to raise or lower taxes and pass laws that affect Scots. They can even vote to give themselves new powers, or to abolish the Act of Union itself. However - due to the fact that the Labour Government have controlled the UK Government since 1997, and the Scottish one since it's reinstatement in 1999, the Labour administration in Scotland will not go against Blair on anything, which leaves our parliament not doing things that could improve the welfare of Scots.

Labour isn't seen to be corrupt by Scots. Arrogant, out of touch, sleazy... yeah. But in the West-central areas in Scotland, Labour is different from the rest of the country. They're still old-school Socialists there, and that's what Glaswegians like. In the North and South, they all vote SNP or Liberal Democrat.

One funny thing to point out about Scottish politics is that we don't like right-wing parties. The Conservatives are the 4th party here, whereas they're 2nd in the UK.

As for economic influence... the only organisation with that sort of clout is the Royal Bank of Scotland. The amount of money they make is staggering.

Originally Posted by Proto

Scotland is self-sufficient to a point, with some industries being top-notch like education and the such. Even if there are other that would be affected greatly in the case independence is attained, and this would cause the loss of its status as a first-world nation, it wouldn't be that bad since the majority of people in Scotland isn't that ambitious in that aspect.

Define "First World." Our usage of it means "developed nation."

Scotland is self-sufficient. The Scottish Parliament and devolution in general made a lot of core services (NHS, pensions, etc) de-centralised and positions throughout the country. Our judiciary and education system have remained independent of England since the Union. We even have different laws to that of England and Wales. I believe that the first actions of a SNP/Liberal Democrat/Green Coalition government would be to grant more powers to the Scottish parliament as well.

Scots wouldn't mind losing their place as a regional/world power. As I said, ask any Scot and they'll tell you they'd rather have the wealth of the nation spent on healthcare and education instead of trying to keep up with England, France, and other would-be world powers. It's not a lack of "ambition", more of a realisation that we're a nation of 5 million people that have enough domestic problems to worry about without the need to interfere with other countries.