Virginia Tech Shootings

[Proto]

I'm just stating plain fact - ban weapons, and I will arm myself. Don't ban weapons, and I'm content to be weaponless. It's a paradox, but I know I'm not the only one.

If you make weapons illegal, then why would I bother with a simple tiny pistol? They're all illegal, I'm going to go for the biggest thing I can fit in my hand and still conceal. In my home, just something that's point-and-spray, as I suspect that as they make weapons illegal, it would be difficult to get adequate training - so I'd just go for something that takes little to no training.

I was going to reply with how your argument striked me as if you cared nay for law and whatnot, but then I got that I guess we view life from different standpoints. (mine being social and yours being individualistic).

IMO (and I remark, IMO) a society exist for the sake of providing the individuals that live in them means and resources that wouldn't be attainable to them should they live in smaller groups or alone. One of those aspects that we gain from society is security. First the security we won't have to constantly, dayly, deal with the challenges nature presents us. And the security that comes when the group works for the wellbeing of each of its members. When the individuals that conform a society feel that they should use more dangerous and more definite means for ensuring their own safity, on an indivual basis, then maybe its because the system the society has adopted doesn't work anymore.

My point? If you feel that in order to ensure your own safety you have to possess weapons, then maybe the society you live in no longer works for you. At least on a personal level I would never live in a place where in order to protect myself I would have to know anything beyond martial arts. If you feel this is a personal issue, then maybe your best option would be to move elsewhere where this is not necessary (unless you deem personal security to rank low on your priority scale). If you feel this is a social issue, then maybe the American security system needs a major overhaul

[Player-X]

The inevitable attack on science
By: Steve on Tuesday, April 17th, 2007 at 5:20 PM - PDT

In 1999, as the nation was still coming to grips with the tragedy at Columbine High School, then-House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas) took to the floor to identify what he saw as the real culprit: science classes. “Our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who are evolutionized [sic] out of some primordial soup,” DeLay said. Young people learn modern biology, DeLay said, which in turn makes them feel insignificant, which in turn leads to violence.

This was, of course, one of the more loathsome comments made by one of Congress's more despicable people, but after yesterday’s shootings at Virginia Tech, it was only a matter of time before someone who shares DeLay’s worldview stepped up to assess yesterday’s tragedy the same way.

Enter Ken Ham, a leading creationist activist, who leads an outfit called Answers in Genesis.

“We live in an era when public high schools and colleges have all but banned God from science classes. In these classrooms, students are taught that the whole universe, including plants and animals — and humans — arose by natural processes. Naturalism (in essence, atheism) has become the religion of the day and has become the foundation of the education system (and Western culture as a whole). The more such a philosophy permeates the culture, the more we would expect to see a sense of purposelessness and hopelessness that pervades people’s thinking. In fact, the more a culture allows the killing of the unborn, the more we will see people treating life in general as ‘cheap.’”

Ham, it’s worth noting, wrote this yesterday. He couldn’t even wait 24 hours before connecting the massacre and biology classes.

These creationist douchebags would use this tragedy to help spread their BS, worse yet people actuaily pay attention to them in a positive way.

[Lord Budweiser]

Originally Posted by Player-X

These creationist douchebags would use this tragedy to help spread their BS, worse yet people actuaily pay attention to them in a positive way.

Bull****, US is not the only place where biology classes are that way... some places have the same kind of biology classes and don't have this kind of problem.

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[KillerShots]

Originally Posted by Proto

I was going to reply with how your argument striked me as if you cared nay for law and whatnot, but then I got that I guess we view life from different standpoints. (mine being social and yours being individualistic).

As I said, it's not that I don't respect the laws - I'm perfectly content to not even own a weapon as things currently stand. For all a pinhead like the guy who shot up VT knows, I could be armed. Put a gun ban in, and such idiots think they can roll over anyone so long as nobody else sees it.

There is nothing that a society can do that can protect from such a thing. If all the campus police were armed and showed up to the VT massacre in 30 seconds, they'd be 25 seconds too late to save anyone (with the exception of the 2nd shooting two hours later).

Another thing to remember: If one person wants to kill another, and has committed to that decision, a simple gun ban will not prevent them from obtaining a gun.

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[The Captain]

I love how whenever something like this happens, everyone wants to increase gun control laws or get rid of guns.

Yes, this was a tragedy, and there will continue to be tragedies like this regardless of gun control laws. There were tragedies all throughout human history and there will continue to be tragedies.

It's a classic argument about freedom versus safety. Unfortunately, you can't have both. In order to make society safer, you have to restrict its citizens in one form or another. Neither complete freedom nor complete safety is good. There has to be a balance of both for a good society.

The inherent problem in all of this is the Illusion of Safety. Many of the laws that are passed in response to terrorism and tragedies such as Virginia Tech are what are called "feel good" laws. They make you feel good, and politicians use them to get votes and support, but in reality they don't make us safer. They do, however, restrict freedom.

Did the laws restricting taking nail clippers or more than 5 oz. of fluid onboard an aircraft (in response to fear of terrorism) really make us safer? The answer, of course, is no. They may make us feel more safe, but if we are honest with ourselves, we know that if someone wants to commit an act of terrorism, he/she will find a way regardless of how many restrictions we impose - "Where there's a will, there's a way."

The same is true of gun control laws, but even more so. If someone is going to go on a killing spree, rob a bank, or commit any other kind of felony, why would he/she care about breaking gun laws? Such laws only apply to normal, law-abiding citizens. As such, gun control laws only make it more difficult for normal people to get guns, not criminals or lunatics.

The kid at Virginia Tech didn't need to use a gun to kill a lot of people. He could have gone to a local hardware store and constructed a few bombs and killed even more people. It was just easier to get a gun. But what if he was in a country that had a gun ban? Even so, he still could have procured a gun and some ammo with a little effort and perhaps a little more money.

The other ridiculous part of this is the insane ratio of normal, law-abiding, safe gun owners (like myself) to gun-toting lunatics and criminals. Banning guns because of a few bad apples is like banning cars due to car crashes or banning planes whenever a plane crashes. I don't have any real hard figures or statistics, but I imagine that gun owners who kill or hurt innocent people with their guns account for less than 1% of all gun owners in the US. The media never focuses on the countless people who safely carry concealed weapons or go out to gun range for some safe fun. Instead, all we hear on the evening news or see in the movies are innocent people getting shot. Yes, it happens - but not nearly as much as the media and politicians want you to believe. The vast majority of gun owners realize the inherent dangers of a gun and handle guns with the respect and safety needed.

If the number I gave above was much bigger, say 10% or even as small as 5%, I would consider a ban on guns in the US (even though such a ban would have little effect on criminals with the money and connections). But as things stand now, increasing gun laws or banning guns all together is an insult to every safe, law-abiding gun owner like myself. It's like being punished for something you didn't do: "Yes I know you and all the other kids know how to play ball responsibly, but little Johnny from two towns over decided to throw the ball at a lady, so now I'm taking the ball away from all of you."

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[Proto]

Hence why I said that this problem wouldn't be solved with something as simple and as direct as a gun ban. That is nothing but a reactionary solution, that as you say will only give us the idea that something was done while in reality the core problem was left alone. Of course it is necessary to pass stricter control on who owns what weapons and whatnot but...

Originally Posted by Killershots

There is nothing that a society can do that can protect from such a thing. If all the campus police were armed and showed up to the VT massacre in 30 seconds, they'd be 25 seconds too late to save anyone (with the exception of the 2nd shooting two hours later).

As Killershot correctly addressed that will not stop someone wanting to kill other person. What is actually necessary is for the American society to make a deep instrospection of why such a thing is happening in the first place. It can be argued that it is all part of human nature for a small number of random individuals to go wacko and on killing sprees, but the truth is for one reason on another the USA has seen an increase on such ocurrenses in recent years. Obviously somewhere along the way we went wrong on how we manage our youth, on how we manage those who are repressed society. But if we don't take action to prevent such cases, no ban and no action will stop them.

Again, when a society is incapable of protecting its citizens, both from external dangers a from themselves an important part of its meaning is lost. Hence why finding a long-lasting solution for these problem is not only crucial, but indispensable for a society to keep its raison-de-être.

This of course, doesn't mean that I am pro-weapon or anything. On a personal basis I'm against civilians possesing anything capable of making more harm than their own fists. A society that needs its citizens to defend themselves is a society that isn't working well, but I understand the POV of those wanting to possess a weapon. However I disagree with your comparison of weapons and cars, Captain. A weapon is an object made with the sole meaning of harming another one. Its possession, if it is permitted should go through much more stricter control than possessing a car.

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Last edited by Proto; April 18th, 2007 at 22:34..

[The Captain]

Originally Posted by Proto

This of course, doesn't mean that I am pro-weapon or anything. On a personal basis I'm against civilians possesing anything capable of making more harm than their own fists. A society that needs its citizens to defend themselves is a society that isn't working well, but I understand the POV of those wanting to possess a weapon. However I disagree with your comparison of weapons and cars, Captain. A weapon is an object made with the sole meaning of harming another one. Its possession, if it is permitted should go through much more stricter control than possessing a car.

Hmmm. I understand what you are saying, but do your really believe occurrences have been increasing? It would seem to me that such occurrences have always happened throughout history. It's just that now we have the media and the internet, so we are now more aware of such things. Of course, I won't rule out the possibility of an increase, but you have to agree that the perpetrators of Columbine, Virgina Tech, etc represent an incredibly small percentage of society. I think that there will always be a small percentage of people who are a few cards short of a full deck.

As to the purpose of guns, they are of course made to be able to kill/injure people. At the same time though, how many guns purchased by civilians are used for that purpose? It would seem that if that was their only ability, then we would have a lot more dead people and a lot more murderers on our hands. In reality, civilians purchase guns and other weapons for two reasons: personal protection and sport. I fit into the latter category.

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[Player-X]

While the number of incidents of school violence has increased the percentage of violence has dropped, all in all I would say the number of violent incidents is increasing in response to the larger number of people who can do it in the first place.

[Nucking Futs]

Originally Posted by Player-X

While the number of incidents of school violence has increased the percentage of violence has dropped, all in all I would say the number of violent incidents is increasing in response to the larger number of people who can do it in the first place.

The agression is still there, but it's being held back because of several reasons. I've seen it at myself:" I've stopped doing "input any kind of addiction here" for about 7 months or so by pure willpower, and i thought that was the way to go. Then i was confronted with the special kind of situation i have problems to deal with and usually knock myself out, and all of a sudden i wanted to do stuff i had never done before. I think there are a lot more of such tragedies to come the more humanity looses it's "humanity" and it's quite sad to see how much we are willing to destroy one another.

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[jonc2006]

this isnt a gun control issue, its a mental health system one. the stuff im seeing about this guy on the news is proving that more and more. apparently he had been declared by courts a "threat to society" some two years or so ago and told to undergo treatment but refused to go any further with what the court initially gave him. people slip through the cracks, its a cold but true fact of life. **** happens. people blaming guns on this incident need to consider a few things and the main one is that guns do not have minds of their own. they dont have thinking power or logic or the ability to reason. if someone was holding a gun to your head with the intent to kill you, who are you going to plead for your life with? the gun or the person holding it? im not a gun enthusiest or nra member but i sure as hell am an enthusist for common sense. if someone like him is willing to kill 30 something people in cold blood, i doubt they give a **** what they do it with. this could have been a hell of a lot worse if he had done the suicide bomber method.

and ive already seen detective thompson declare within 30 seconds of this story hitting the airwaves that videogames, specifically counter-strike, are involved. from what ive heard and read, the guy didnt even play games. he watched gameshows and friday night wrestling and sometimes played basketball. he was described by room and classmates as a real loner, didnt even respond to greetings and wrote some pretty disturbing stuff for his english class which he was apparently majoring in. he had some real issues with women and rich people too, feeling that he was being "held back" or the world was against him or whatever.

this is a real messed up world and some people do real messed up things. its easy to blame stuff like guns, games, music, pop culture, or fried chicken but its like that way because the real reasons have no real solutions. and if they do they are real complex and can have to be looked at on an indivudual basis, not a sterotype or generlization. we live in a country where people who need real mental help are put into a system as a number and given quick-fix perscriptions that dont do jack **** as a way for insurance companies to save a buck. they dont give a **** about the actual person. this guy was in need of serious help, the courts knew it, people who knew him knew it, and he himself probably knew it. but the help people like him need is not out there. if anything aside from the shooter himself is at fault here its the ****ty mental health system this country has.

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[Hellsbound]

Very sad even in Australia i heard it man that guy is nutz. He souldent of never allowed to get a gun. Over here if you have a metal problem you can have a gun but we can only have certans guns.

Just my say it's still very sad day for the world a serial killer.

33 DEAD

Ops forgot if your have a mental problem you cant have a gun in Australia only allowed if your hunt rabbits.

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Last edited by Hellsbound; April 19th, 2007 at 03:28.. Reason: Fix up

[jonc2006]

Originally Posted by Hellsbound

Very sad even in Australia i heard it man that guy is nutz. He souldent of never allowed to get a gun. Over here if you have a metal problem you can have a gun but we can only have certans guns.

Just my say it's still very sad day for the world a serial killer.

33DEAD

Ops forgot ig your have a mental problem you cnt have a gun.

its not a gun problem. its a mental health system problem. this guy was labeled by a court a "threat to society" yet somehow he was let out into the world. im especialy curious how he was let into VT with a history like that.

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[aolforbroadband]

Originally Posted by jonc2006

its not a gun problem. its a mental health system problem. this guy was labeled by a court a "threat to society" yet somehow he was let out into the world. im especialy curious how he was let into VT with a history like that.

Thing is, there are other people with similar issues like him in a lot of places. You can't necessarily label them all threats to society, especially if they've had a troubled past that was hard on them. Most of on campus incidents happened after he was accepted into the school anyway, and they didn't seem to be violent or life threatening in any way, just bothersome to those involved. I think everyone who came in contact with him there thought he was just shy, a little weird, depressed, and maybe a threat to himself in terms of suicidal thoughts. We've all come across people like that, although his was never seen as severe as it was because he refused to cooperate with anybody who tried to reach out to him.

I'm just disappointed more than anything right now because of the racial prejudice against Koreans that's arising from all this hysteria. Especially up here in DC suburbs where we have a lot of connections to Virginia Tech, I'm amazed how ignorant some people still are. I saw this kid in the halls before my history class talking about how some kids looked at him really evil, like they were racially profiling him because of the killer of the same ethnicity. My friend even told me her moms friend who runs a dry cleaning shop was told her business was no long wanted by a customer who came in to pick her clothes today. She also said her brothers friend who goes to another school in Virginia(VCU) was harassed about her heritage by a stranger while she was pumping gas to the point she cried when she got home. Nobody should have to deal with this, but sadly because of one disturbed soul who just happened to be Korean and took 32 innocent lives - they will be the ones taking the senseless backlash for it. I saw the same thing after 9-11 with people of Arab descent, and witnessing it first hand really makes me just shake my head in disgust.

The image attached was written in a upstairs hallway at my school.

Attached Images

0418071044.jpg (14.2 KB, 10 views)

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[jonc2006]

Originally Posted by aolforbroadband

Thing is, there are other people with similar issues like him in a lot of places. You can't necessarily label them all threats to society, especially if they've had a troubled past that was hard on them. Most of on campus incidents happened after he was accepted into the school anyway, and they didn't seem to be violent or life threatening in any way, just bothersome to those involved. I think everyone who came in contact with him there thought he was just shy, a little weird, depressed, and maybe a threat to himself in terms of suicidal thoughts. We've all come across people like that, although his was never seen as severe as it was because he refused to cooperate with anybody who tried to reach out to him.

I'm just disappointed more than anything right now because of the racial prejudice against Koreans that's arising from all this hysteria. Especially up here in DC suburbs where we have a lot of connections to Virginia Tech, I'm amazed how ignorant some people still are. I saw this kid in the halls before my history class talking about how some kids looked at him really evil, like they were racially profiling him because of the killer of the same ethnicity. My friend even told me her moms friend who runs a dry cleaning shop was told her business was no long wanted by a customer who came in to pick her clothes today. She also said her brothers friend who goes to another school in Virginia(VCU) was harassed about her heritage by a stranger while she was pumping gas to the point she cried when she got home.

Nobody should have to deal with this, but sadly because of one disturbed soul who just happened to be Korean and took 30 something innocent lives and injured hundreds more both physically and mentally, and directly and indirectly that will probably follow them for the rest of their lives. they will be the ones taking the senseless backlash for it. in a sense, as cold as it may sound, the dead are the ones who have been given the mercy. I saw the same thing after 9-11 with people of Arab descent, and witnessing it first hand really makes me just shake my head in disgust. we (the human race) are too smart for our own good, we are so quick to point fingers in the name of declaring whos right and whos wrong or playing in some sick form or one-upping with each other just to satisfy our egos.

The image attached was written in a upstairs hallway at my school.

that happens everytime bull**** stuff like this goes on. its stupid too because it makes me feel like i owe an apology to the people who are being subjected to this crap. the koreans, just like the muslims after every terrorist attack, dont owe anyone an apology, its not their fault. the only person who owes an apology is the shooter and maybe detective thompson. i feel sorry mostly for the victims of this senseless act of cold blooded murder upon innocent lives who where just starting out (which is the most chilling part in my opinion) but i also at some level feel sorrow for the shooter, he needed help and no one was there to give it to him.

im not saying he is a victim but in a way he is, a victim of himself and self-neglect. imagine what it is like to live day to day with that frame of mind haunting you and no matter where you go, it follows you like a confused child. its sickining to even think about that sort of thing. i wish we lived in a happy little fairy tale world where there is always a happy ending and even the bad guy gets a second chance at correcting his mistakes like the bible)no offense ment there) says exists at some point in the universe. but sadly thats not the way the world works, at least not now it doesnt. i wish it did form the bottem of my heart but it just isnt possibe. we are going to be responsible for our own demise as a species. and by the time everyone realizes it, it will be too late. its sad, but **** happens. we are too intelligent for our own good.

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[TheCloudOfSmoke]

I'm not sure if this info has already been posted since I'm too tired to read through all of those long posts on the other pages but apparently he sent his manifesto to NBC after the second shooting on Monday. It was a 23 page manifesto but NBC is only releasing 5 pages of it for the time being because they don't want to interfere too much with the police investigation. There were videos and other stuff that he put in the package. It looks like he was anticipating that this would be really huge news. That dude is seriously f'd up.

Cho's manifesto, page 1 - Massacre at Virginia Tech - MSNBC.com

There are more links on the side of this page to other stuff relating to the manifesto.

Gunman disturbed teachers, classmates - Massacre at Virginia Tech - MSNBC.com

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Originally Posted by BigIg

If I support the game company, then I won't won't be supporting the blank DVD business.

Decisions, decisions.

[Holic]

The more a hear about this guy, the messed he gets.

The pictures and vids was disturbing to say the least.

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[emwearz]

Originally Posted by jonc2006

its not a gun problem. its a mental health system problem. this guy was labeled by a court a "threat to society" yet somehow he was let out into the world. im especialy curious how he was let into VT with a history like that.

I have to disagree with you on that. Ever country has nut case's with mental health issues. Its just its not in every country that its so easy to get your hands on guns. From an outsider looking in on the states, there gun laws are seriously messed up) I don't think the British are coming back, put the guns down.

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[moonlitedx]

american terror at work heh.

[Hellsbound]

Jezz i havent seen that.

[Holic]

He kept his troubles to himself, just locked it up and became antisocial.

Then he just let all his hate and anger out....
In a sick way he must of been relived to let go of his inner anger.

Whats worse is that he escaped justice, a coward of the worst kind.

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