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#1 (permalink) | |
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あの人
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In Front of My Computer
Posts: 774
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Bnetd reverse engineering ruling may stifle innovation
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#2 (permalink) |
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band
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HERE
Posts: 4,574
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uh oh...will this be the beginning of the end for private RO servers O___O
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![]() 1. Small, Cheap, Powerful - you can have only two 2. Everytime you engineer something foolproof, the world comes up with a better idiot. 3. 「学問とは虚栄である。」 The PS3 Cell Processor Explained Page, IBM Research's Introduction to Cell Multiprocessor and Cell Processor Programming Guide |
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#4 (permalink) |
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PCSX2 Coder
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Plymouth, UK
Posts: 9,819
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surely forcing people to pay a subscription just to play a game theyve already paid for should be illegal.
ive never played WoW and never will cos i think its disgusting how they can charge £30-40 for a game then charge you £10-15 a month just to play the damn thing.
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http://www.generalemu.net/ Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 @ 3.4Ghz (425x8), Leadtek GTX 280 1Gb, 1.8Tb HDs, 2Gb Corsair DDR2-800 @ DDR2-1020 5-5-5-18 Dual Channel Dont PM me for help, use the forums, thats what its for! |
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#5 (permalink) |
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band
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HERE
Posts: 4,574
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WoW has spyware : http://www.rootkit.com/blog.php?newsid=358:
player-x thanks for the assurances. ^^
__________________
![]() 1. Small, Cheap, Powerful - you can have only two 2. Everytime you engineer something foolproof, the world comes up with a better idiot. 3. 「学問とは虚栄である。」 The PS3 Cell Processor Explained Page, IBM Research's Introduction to Cell Multiprocessor and Cell Processor Programming Guide |
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#6 (permalink) |
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Emulation Junkie
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 731
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Well, if Bnetd emulated the WoW servers, I can kinda see the point here, however the diablo servers were FREE anyway.
But anyway....here is my point. Once a piece of software (game, app, whatever) has acheived enough of a following that people would want to take THEIR time to create add-ons to the game, which people would then use, and these add-ons would make people want to play the game MORE and maybe even attract new people to the game, thereby making the company more money, why would they want to stop it? I just really don't understand it....user created mods typically make games more fun. I know I have seen before in post where people have specifically said that they might buy the game DEPENDING ON IF SOME COOL MODS GET RELEASED FOR IT, so this has actually become a determine factor for alot of people whether or not they even buy the game! The things these corporations do nowadays utterly disgust me.
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Current Specs: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Manchester/ 2 GB Corsair PC3200 Ram / DVD-RW DL Light Scribe / Lite-On SOHW-832S DVD+-RW DL / 200 Gig Samsung HD / 250 Gig Maxtor HD / Nvidia GeForce 7600GT 256 MB PCI-E / Creative SoundBlaster Audigy2 ZS Bruce Almighty: How do you make someone love you without affecting free will? God: Good Question. If you find the answer to that, let me know.
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#7 (permalink) |
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Ph33r teh hammy!
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 495
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Go Blizzard GO! They made the games, they make the rules, hence why they won their lawsuit. Won't help much at all, but nonetheless, they can now go after people who reverse engineer b.net a lot easier.
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Hiya! Windows XP Professional VLE MSI K8N Neo2 Motherboard Athlon 64 3500+ 2GB PC-3200 Dual Channel Ram (2X 1GB) 2X 160GB 7200 RPM HDD's (Raid-0) 2X 200GB 7200 SATA HDD's (Not raided...yet) GeForce 6800GT 256mb ViewSonic 19" LCD Comcast Cable Internet - Local servers downloading at about 850KB/sec. Handy. |
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#8 (permalink) |
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あの人
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: In Front of My Computer
Posts: 774
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I think you guys are missing the big picture here. The ramifications of this ruling go a lot further than just forcing BnetD to shut down. They have basically set a precitent that says it's illegal to reverse engineer hardware or software for the purposes of interoperability, add-on support, ect., if the creators of said hardware/software don't want you to. If this ruling holds up, it could give companies that operate in the US liscence to seek out and put a stop to any project based on information gained from reverse engineering their products, including emulators.
In other words, say Nintendo decides that because the Revolution will have backwards compatibility with games from all it's old systems, they don't want to compete with all the free emulators out there for them. Well, this ruling gives them grounds to put all unauthorized emulators for their hardware out of commision. Now in theory, this shouldn't matter to emu authors who are not US citizens, since they should be out of the reach of US law. But then again, the US has gotten good at applying it's laws outside it's own juristiction as of late... Does anyone know if the creators of BnetD lived in the US? Because if Blizzard was able to shut them down and they weren't even US citizens, then that would mean no one is safe. |
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#9 (permalink) |
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band
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HERE
Posts: 4,574
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O___O the end of NGEMU?!?!?!?!
__________________
![]() 1. Small, Cheap, Powerful - you can have only two 2. Everytime you engineer something foolproof, the world comes up with a better idiot. 3. 「学問とは虚栄である。」 The PS3 Cell Processor Explained Page, IBM Research's Introduction to Cell Multiprocessor and Cell Processor Programming Guide |
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#11 (permalink) |
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Ph33r teh hammy!
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 495
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This may sound extremely odd on a emulation forum, but oh well...
No emulators? Oh well. Good for the most part. Nobody has reasons to download thousands upon thousands of games that these companies make onto their computers to be played by emulators. I say good for them if they can some how (though they won't) be able to put a stop to emulation. I find it great to be able to play some older extremely tough to get games, but N64, PS, PS2 (which plays psx games as everyone knows), Gamecube, XBox etc. etc... they're all being emulated up to some point, even if the newer systems come out with their most popular (re-release) titles compatable with newer systems, idiots still go out there and download thousands of dollars worth of software they didn't put any sweat into making, which, in the end, does lose these companies a lot of money. They mod their boxes to play these illegal games. I can't think, or in the history of this argument I hope doesn't break out, heard one *GOOD* excuse for people to get games they didn't buy. I don't have the money I can't find the game game companys sell more games than what are stolen Bull****... there's just almost no reason for emulation. No reason whatsoever. There are few of us that actually use the emulator (such as epsxe) and burn our own ISO's and run them. I'd say upwards of 90%+ of the (emulated) games on their computer they don't own. I, for one, wouldn't miss price drops in RL software.
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Hiya! Windows XP Professional VLE MSI K8N Neo2 Motherboard Athlon 64 3500+ 2GB PC-3200 Dual Channel Ram (2X 1GB) 2X 160GB 7200 RPM HDD's (Raid-0) 2X 200GB 7200 SATA HDD's (Not raided...yet) GeForce 6800GT 256mb ViewSonic 19" LCD Comcast Cable Internet - Local servers downloading at about 850KB/sec. Handy. |
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#12 (permalink) |
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band
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HERE
Posts: 4,574
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i certainly hope u have your flameproof suit on modem1 @____@
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![]() 1. Small, Cheap, Powerful - you can have only two 2. Everytime you engineer something foolproof, the world comes up with a better idiot. 3. 「学問とは虚栄である。」 The PS3 Cell Processor Explained Page, IBM Research's Introduction to Cell Multiprocessor and Cell Processor Programming Guide |
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#13 (permalink) |
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Administrator
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 7,219
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no reason to flame, he does make a good point.
IMO we wont see the emulation scene disappearing anytime soon. the only thing that can possibly kill the emu scene is time. with time, consoles will be too powerfull to be emulated by PCs (that is if we continue with the same architecture for PCs...) |
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#14 (permalink) | |
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band
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HERE
Posts: 4,574
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i was referring to the "im not using illegal romz", and various claims of innocence that ppl (have in the past and prolly will continue to) put up to arguments such as modem1
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__________________
![]() 1. Small, Cheap, Powerful - you can have only two 2. Everytime you engineer something foolproof, the world comes up with a better idiot. 3. 「学問とは虚栄である。」 The PS3 Cell Processor Explained Page, IBM Research's Introduction to Cell Multiprocessor and Cell Processor Programming Guide |
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#15 (permalink) |
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>>Tech hating Squirrel<<
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 317
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I can't believe that you think that there is no point to emulation. I couldnt dissagree more. I think emulators and emulation in general is one of the most exciting concepts out there, there arent just emulators for consoles, the are old Computer emulators, like Apple II, Amiga even Lisa, cpu emulators, old arcade machine emulators, there are emulators for something as useless as a CHIP-8, and who could of imagined an emulator for Texas Instruments calculator, and how can you forget about WINE, a windows emulator for Linux! For you to just so bluntly disregard years of hard work put in by countless programmers and emulator users to keep this hardware alive is just plain insulting! Can't you see that without emulation all of these amazing machines would be lost forever, there are people out there that do feel pationatly about these things and you are obviously not one of them. Plus your statement has absolutely no merit, how can you possibly blame emulation for all of the piracy going on? Its like blaming Winamp for all the mp3 being pirated! Do you not realize that majority of people who download ISO images etc., are more interested in burning them and playing them on theyr perfectly legaly purchased, moded console? Or did you completely disregard that fact and just decided to shift all the blame on emulators? I could go on and on aobut this..
But dont your realize that there is a bigger issue here? There is an issue of freedom. Cant you see that big companies are ristricting your freedom as a software user, regarding what you can use, copy or mod on your own personal pc? As long as people like you are around software users/programmers will continue be pushed around by big companies/governement. I for one feel that if I purchase or legaly aquire a software I have a freedom to modify it and use in any way that I think is apropriate. Thats like buying a TV and then having the TV monufacturer telling you what you can and cant watch on it. Dont you see how redicilous that sounds? For more on these freedoms Listen to RMS I hope that I was able to influence your way of thinking in some way or another, but this topic is just too big for me to go on about it.
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#16 (permalink) |
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bmlejanfjnfsknf
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: kbnodibmp
Posts: 2,312
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bad to hear that emulation will end someday
![]() I don't think emulation is bad thing. A lot of people (i may include myself in this) use emulators to play games that have already been forgotten, and play systems that've already been buried. Its not easy to see someone buying a Atari 2600 or, being a bit actual, a Sega Master System just to play one or two games. The companies have already earned with these consoles. Its so much easier to get an emu and play it in your pc. Also, a lot of emulators have options that can enhance graphics, sound, and do a lot of other things (like sound record, video record, etc...). And you know that consoles just can't do that. Oh well, if you stand with a N64 playing Zelda OoT with normal graphics, and then look at an emu running Zelda with those Hi Resolution textures, which one should you play first? Also I'm wondering how far will work the Revolution's retro-compatibility... and if get some good, how do you'll play games? with downloaded roms or roms you'll need to buy from Nintendo? I just want to see if then what will the companies say... If consoles had all the options the emus offer, I think then there wouldn't have a real reason to use emus... but since the only problem of emus is the comaptibility (and of course, speed/gfx errors), emus are much better than consoles.
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#17 (permalink) |
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Ph33r teh hammy!
![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 495
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(tried to post this around 3:00am, but my internet went down at some point when I was typing this)
I am not saying emulation is entirely a *bad* thing. The idea is awesome, and I'm sure Nintendo is (figuratively speaking) smacking themselves upside the head for not thinking of a similar idea earlier. What I'm saying is that people are using emulation as a excuse to download gigabytes and gigabytes of games they don't own. Whether the game is 1 year old or 25, it's still illegal. It'd be great to see Nintendo, Sony or Sega (former anyway) release their games somehow, emulation or not, to play on the PC or newer consoles and such, but sadly, for the most part, that isn't going to happen. What's happening is that Nintendo (for a example) is mostly likely biting the big one, releasing their "new" console which isn't much faster than their Gamecube, to be backward compatable with their older systems games. There's even a rumor that it's going to be released for $100! $100?! Nobody in their right mind would release a console at $100 and expect to make a major profit (though I'm guessing they're hoping it'll come from the games already made/released on prior systems). No, emulation isn't the whole reason they're doing it. They didn't listen to customers and never really updated their games for people that used to play their games in the mid 80's, who are now (fairly) mature adults at 2005, and their fanbase has dropped. All their previous Mario... Zelda etc. releases are now being emulated, and they're no longer making money off of any of it. How many people will go out and buy their re-released Zelda, Mario or Metroid games for their Gameboy advance for $20 when they can download it in a matter of minutes? People without computers, that's who, which there aren't many of nowadays. Sony and Microsoft are two huge reasons as well. Nintendo didn't act early enough, and they're likely paying the ultimate price. I can go to any number of sites which have EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN GAME RELEASED (snes/nes/genisis/n64) GAME, in one download. That's how easy it is to get these things. In this bnetd thing, they reverse engineered Battle.net to play games they don't own on custom servers via emulation. I've heard countless people brag that they play on some custom WoW server with edited equipment, monsters and the game itself. It's not right (NOTE: I know that WoW doesn't use battle.net, but you get the point with Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo). Blizzard may want $13/$15 a month for you to play their game, but it's their choice. And it's your choice to go purchase the game or not. But it's not your right to download the game in full, and play on a custom server anywhere you want. Blizzard keeps Battle.net open for all their games for the reason that people keep playing on it, and I can't see any of their games getting shut down on b.net due to nobody playing it any time soon. I'm all for ZSNES, ePSXe, PJ64, 1964 etc., but for the most part, it's all about piracy. Are you going to tell me that anyone who has that Arcade emulator (whatever it's called), owns every arcade game they have in their rom collection? Likely not. You guys (not literally just you, but all emulation related sites) try to get around it with "we don't support downloaded games" etc. etc., and ban the idoits if they say they downloaded it from wherever, but honestly, how many people do you know own the equipment to dump arcarde games? SNES games? N64 games? NES games? Genisis games? Probably less than 0.001% of people out there. This place is one of the better, only supporting PSX games, which it's a lot easier to get ahold of PSX games from Gamestop, Gamecrazy, EB etc. etc., but there are still too many of the other (people downloading games) that are out there to even remotely halt the spread. I'd say ePSXe is just about the only one that I fully like. You even know a few selected Final Fantasy ISO's (from what I've seen) that have selective problems with certain parts of the "disk", which is great... but it's still almost as easy to go out there on the web to get whatever game you want in a matter of minutes (or the filesharing programs and such), free of charge, even though you can go out anywhere and get some, if not most games for under $10. I'm sorry for the rant, but all I'm saying is that, no matter how many people say they "own all emulated games they download" or "owned it at one point", it's still illegal, which is why these guys are trying to prevent it. The booklets for games say clear as day for SNES (for example), that it's illegal to duplicate the game in any way. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm thinking that includes COPYING it onto your computer via any sort of dumping hardware/utility. Most emulation sites say "delete roms within 24 hours if you don't own it", and say it's "legal to have the rom if you own it". It's not. It's only legal to purchase the game to get the cart, plug it into the intended system, and fire it up. I, for one, am all what these guys are trying to accomplish. I don't honestly think much will happen, but hopefully their efforts will go to waste completely.
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Hiya! Windows XP Professional VLE MSI K8N Neo2 Motherboard Athlon 64 3500+ 2GB PC-3200 Dual Channel Ram (2X 1GB) 2X 160GB 7200 RPM HDD's (Raid-0) 2X 200GB 7200 SATA HDD's (Not raided...yet) GeForce 6800GT 256mb ViewSonic 19" LCD Comcast Cable Internet - Local servers downloading at about 850KB/sec. Handy. |
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#18 (permalink) | ||
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Registered User
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 1,119
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Quote:
This kinda attitude is EXACTLY whats wrong in the world today... It's all about me, me, me...My right to do what I want. What about the developers right to contol their own code, hardware, etc??? When you buy software you are not Buying it you are leasing it, there is a big diofference. Sure you own the cd it is on, but the actual code still belongs to the developer/distributer. You do not have the right to claim it for your own use or modification (Unless explicitly allowed by said developer).. Your worried they are taking your rights, when it isn't your right to begin with.... Quote:
Last edited by dpence; October 20th, 2005 at 20:23. |
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