My thoughts on religion

[Eface]

Honestly, there are a lot of religious people here. With this thread i don't wish to offend them. Nor do i wish to be offended by them.

I was born a christ, and maybe i cared back then. But with a passing childhood with difficulties, praying to god has helped me NOTHING! Knowing this, and knowing what all religions did in the past, i renounced all religions for my own way: justice through personal honor.

Sounds stupid? probably. Ridiciously simple? most certainly.

But how is this better than any religion i know?

First of all, all religions claim their just, or in some form, but where is this justice found? In all the wars they caused?

Further, all religions point to a god, but that "person" never did anything for me. Everything that happened to me was my own doing, and it was me who got me further. God had nothing to do with it. And if you want to blame it on destiny: if it was destiny, i'd be dead already!

I might be blasphemous or whatever you want to call me, but if that's what you think, think about this: Why do you need religion to believe in something?

I believe in myself, in the strenght that everybody has to make the world a better place. The world won't become better by believing in a god. The world becomes better because you make it better. I help people if i can, i feel bad when i can't. But i know what i can and know what i can't.

I don't help saving the wales, but i won't donate money, if i want to help, i'll do it myself.

Until now, the only people who disagree with me in this point of view are religious people. To those people: i'm sorry i don't believe in a god, but it didn't help, where believing in my own strength and using that to make this a better place did help.

I'll keep believing this, until i find out myself that this isn't the way to make this world a better place. But now, people are amazed at how positive i always am. Simply because i believe that i matter to others, because i can help them. That is my belief. Help yourself through helping others with the talents you HAVE, and not cursing for everything you don't have.

sorry 'bout this long rant, but i see a lot of problems where people start blaming others, instead of just making it better by starting by themselves.

If you want to live in the same way as i do now(there is 1 person who adopted to this style already), you'll have to do it yourself. But know this, all the pain you cause, will be reflected somewhere. Stop the pain you cause, and in the long end, the people around you will hurt you less too. The world becomes a better place where people work together and help each other, not where people want to fight.

yes, i violate the not fighting rule, but i do so for only 2 reasons. If you are interested post below

again... sorry about this long rant, but i've had enough of all corrupted religions right now. Seems all religions are about murder, and you know it's the truth. Look around and see for yourself. Not through someone else's eyes, but your own.

[l3illyl3ob]

oh god... not ANOTHER religion topic...

[Boltzmann]

Originally Posted by Eface

I believe in myself, in the strenght that everybody has to make the world a better place. The world won't become better by believing in a god. The world becomes better because you make it better. I help people if i can, i feel bad when i can't. But i know what i can and know what i can't.

Yep, if only people could understand this...
I abandoned religion because of science ("Darwin's dangerous idea", as philosopher Daniel Dennet once put it), but my general dislike for religion has the same reasons as yours.

Those who still think that morals come from god should read Frank R.Zindler's Ethics Without Gods :

One of the first questions Atheists are asked by true believers and doubters alike is, “If you don’t believe in God, there’s nothing to prevent you from committing crimes, is there? Without the fear of hell-fire and eternal damnation, you can do anything you like, can’t you?”
(...)
The answer to the questions posed above is, of course, "Absolutely not!" The behavior of Atheists is subject to the same rules of sociology, psychology, and neurophysiology that govern the behavior of all members of our species, religionists included. Moreover, despite protestations to the contrary, we may assert as a general rule that when religionists practice ethical behavior, it isn't really due to their fear of hell-fire and damnation, nor is it due to their hopes of heaven. Ethical behavior - regardless of who the practitioner may be - results always from the same causes and is regulated by the same forces, and has nothing to do with the presence or absence of religious belief. The nature of these causes and forces is the subject of this essay.

With that said, I'm out of religious debates, before the religious admins kick in and close the thread ("I close the thread, therefore god exists").

[Clements]

Religion is not without its uses for some people. It can provide a means of support and give life a purpose, otherwise they would break down. I say let 'em get on with it, 'if it floats their boat'.

I personally don't need such support since I accepted that life had no meaning and came about through random chance. Now my goal is to make my life as comfortable as possible before returning to the nothingness I came from like before I was born. That's what I think death is probably like, logically.

If religion is so right then how come there have been many different religions since man first arose? Like Greek Mythology. Seems like man invented God to me to explain away life's complexity. If religion is true then there would be just one. And all the different religions aren't the same but different interpretations before someone suggests that since Buddhists don't believe in a God at all.

Christianity (the religion I most know about) has many illogical beliefs to it if you take the Old Testament literally. This book was written at the time when people believed in witches, warlocks and demons. All the life on Earth would have never fit on Noah's Ark for example. Man was limited when this story was made up, and didn't understand biological concepts. Today, we haven't classified every specie on the planet yet, so how could Noah thousands of years ago get two of every animal on a small ark? Even if he did, what if one of the animals died from disease? (very common in those days with no medicine and poor sanitation) Also, limiting the gene pools of animals to just two would create bottlenecks that woul be noticible in the DNA of the animals. I'm 100% sure that the story of Noah's Ark was pulled out of some ignorant person's ass.

If you don't take it literally then I'm not sure you could call yourself a Christian.

Also, the Earth wasn't created in 6 days. You can analyse the Earth's rocks to tell you the age of the Earth and over what period of years these rocks solidified and so on, and it isn't 6 days. And how could man be created on the sixth day? The geological time scale doesn't have human fossils dating back to day six of the Earth's existence. Some argue that the 6 days is spread over the whole geological time scale. Where does it say that in the Bible? People are just pulling more facts (again) out of there ass to explain something that was already ludicrous. The "days" would have to be unequal for that to work. It just does not make any logical sence whatsoever.

Well, in truth, none of the bible is logical in any way. It is all based on dated superstitions that people believed when it was written.

And the most telling thing is, that there are many people that don't have a religion but believe in a God anyway. How could you believe in a God if you don't read religious texts? I believe that people believe in a God because it's human nature to believe in one. These people who believed in a God likely made up the organised religions in order to practice their faith properly thousands of years ago.

Religous people wouldn't be religious if they weren't exposed to religion, since it's the parents role to indoctrinate their children into having their faith. The child will grow up knowing no different, and will assume their religion is true and would never question it. (psychologically, young children will believe everything an adult says). Religion is passed down from generation to generation like this. 'Born-again' religious people usually have done lots of bad deeds so religion is an easy method to make them feel better about themselves for their wrong-doings.

A religious person could never convert me to their religion. I know too much science and religion undermines almost all of it, and at least the science has solid evidence and faith has nothing except 2000+ year old doctrine which isn't really proof of anything at all.

I hope I haven't offended anyone here, this is just my views and it is not my intention to offend people. Religion overall is a good thing even if it is wrong because it helps a lot of people cope with life and brings people together and generally makes people happy. So thumbs up here, anything that produces a positive result is good in my book.

[_E_]

hehe,....such harsh cristism,...anyways,..who's stopping you from not believing in God? You dont want to believe, then fine, thats your call. I am not going to argue, however I will tell you my point of view.

Religion and science go together,..not against each other, at least IMO. I know when to use when and how to. I dont believe blindly because my parents taught me. No, because I am convienced with the Idea of God and his existance. I read the three religons, I spent nights seeking my answers, thought there are still some minor questions I have in my mind, I believe ( or at least want to believe) that I have a strong faith.

Just because God didnt help me doesnt mean that he doesnt exist. I can see his signs in this world.quoting the bible

How many are your works, O Lord! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures. There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number - living things both large and small.
(Psalm 104:24,25)

So why do we need religon? To define whats right and whats wrong. To tell us how to live our lives. To hold us back from commiting crimes against each other.
Look at today's world. People have strayed away from religon. Look at them now, Look at the problems we have now( murder, terrorism, hunger, starvation,..etc), even morals are questioned. When people Interpreted religon well and followed them, there wasnt such problems ( and no, dont confuse this with people who followed wrong interpertations and ended up killing each other in the name of religon ). example : People who lived after Jesus and spraid his nobel ideas, The Islamic civilization,..and so forth.

As for the bible containig many contradictions,..well thats quite normal. Look at its history. There are numerous number of authors who wrote it. There were lost scriptures, and words which were tempered by human hands as time passed.

I end this up by a beautiful quote I read a few days ago while i was reading the translated version of the Qura'n when I was researching its source.

You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for
yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the
brain, and you are responsible for using them." (17:36)

“We will show our signs to them in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient that your Lord witnesses all things?”(41:53)

Yours,
-Elly

[Boltzmann]

Originally Posted by Elly

Look at today's world. People have strayed away from religon. Look at them now, Look at the problems we have now( murder, terrorism, hunger, starvation,..etc), even morals are questioned. When people Interpreted religon well and followed them, there wasnt such problems ( and no, dont confuse this with people who followed wrong interpertations and ended up killing each other in the name of religon ). example : People who lived after Jesus and spraid his nobel ideas, The Islamic civilization,..and so forth.

Please enlighten me - when did this happen?
For all that I've read about history there were never such utopian times here on Spaceship Earth... Mankind's history is drenched in blood (and it also stinks with the odor of people burnt on the stake in the name of god)

And don't get me with all this talk about "murder, terrorism and hunger" - today's violence levels are about the same as 2 thousand years ago. Quoting your beloved Bible "There's nothing new under the sun"

[Mr. Killjoy]

Damn, fuking IE bug, gotta retype my post:

Eface, Boltz, totally agreeing with you except that I haven't experienced the positive part

>> For all that I've read about history there were never such utopian times here on Spaceship Earth... Mankind's history is drenched in blood (and it also stinks with the odor of people burnt on the stake in the name of god)

Jeanne d'Arc must agree

Well, I'll just quote a book and a french song:
"God didn't create humanity, that's humanity who created God (...)"
(...) = ... to feel better/safier/etc in society
Humans needed something to believe in cause then didn't believe in themselves, nor in humanity... that way they have a goal, act good, reach the paradise... and all the stuff

Ok, religions have their good sides, like Theresa, but to take her as an example, she
acted cause her religion told her? Nah that's an excuse, she helped ppl just cause she felt like it, she is (was?) kind and generous, she did this cause she wanted to, not cause of a God wanting her to do it

Blablablah

[_E_]

Originally Posted by Boltzmann

Please enlighten me - when did this happen?
For all that I've read about history there were never such utopian times here on Spaceship Earth... Mankind's history is drenched in blood (and it also stinks with the odor of people burnt on the stake in the name of god)

And don't get me with all this talk about "murder, terrorism and hunger" - today's violence levels are about the same as 2 thousand years ago. Quoting your beloved Bible "There's nothing new under the sun"

I will quote myself again :

and no, dont confuse this with people who followed wrong interpertations and ended up killing each other in the name of religon ).

I didnt consider the Actions which people did in the name of religon when they were the first one to disobey its teachings, and thats the problem you and many people are getting confused with. Religon doesnt cause this, people who mis interpert what the religon asks you to do are the reason why.

Anyways, looking how living standards are gettings harder everyday, the gap between the rich and the poor increase in size, drugs, murder ( the killing rate is scary in the united states alone )..etc. Looking at the statistics, there have been efforts which decreased them,..however, compare them to the time when christianity was spreading,...are they the same? AFIAK, they are not.

Yours,
-Elly

[Boltzmann]

Originally Posted by Elly

I will quote myself again :


I didnt consider the Actions which people did in the name of religon when they were the first one to disobey its teachings, and thats the problem you and many people are getting confused with. Religon doesnt cause this, people who mis interpert what the religon asks you to do are the reason why.

I included the part about burning people just to tease ya'. I knew you would say this

Originally Posted by Elly

Anyways, looking how living standards are gettings harder everyday, the gap between the rich and the poor increase in size, drugs, murder ( the killing rate is scary in the united states alone )..etc. Looking at the statistics, there have been efforts which decreased them,..however, compare them to the time when christianity was spreading,...are they the same? AFIAK, they are not.

When christianity was spreading times were much worse. Even middle-class brazilians like me have higher living-standards than kings in that age (at least we live longer and get cured from disease much faster, not to mention other benefits from modern life).

When christianity finally settled itself as the ultimate power in Europe we reached an age of intellectual stagnation where all progress halted, and living conditions absolutely sucked (for the peasants, of course, not for the clergy and the nobles).

Just give me a passage from a history textbook describing your utopian times... can you do that?

BTW, the killing rates in the US have been steadily decreasing since the 1990s, you should check your sources before broadcasting popular misconceptions.

[Proto]

and no, dont confuse this with people who followed wrong interpertations and ended up killing each other in the name of religon ).

Oh, so yaou conviniently cast away every person that dont fit in your description so that it ends up without *flaws*. What we do the same. Cast away every person who doesnt have the minimal wits to see through basic sociology and psicology, then we end up with the good old secular atheists.

My point is that religion by itself hasnt proved to be an effective control system. People eventually just follow their passions, most of the times because of their ignorance (and not of their religion, but because of their religion). I cannot say that this times are any better, but all the same i cant say that they are any worse. Moreover, i see knowledge and understanding as a better way to avoid further conflicts.

Anyways, looking how living standards are gettings harder everyday, the gap between the rich and the poor increase in size, drugs, murder ( the killing rate is scary in the united states alone )..etc. Looking at the statistics, there have been efforts which decreased them,..however, compare them to the time when christianity was spreading,...are they the same? AFIAK, they are not.

Errr... well you know, with a bigger population obviously there will be more murders, more drug consumption, and more chaos in general. The only difference nowadays is the wide access of the information to everyone, which gives us a better idea of the world we actually live.

[netghost2.0]

With topics like these, I am sorely tempted to bring out my politically incorrect "arguing on the Internet is like participating in the Special Olympics" picture.

Sorry, I love a good argument/debate as much as anybody but debating religion is intellectually futile (at least for me). It doesn't contribute or advance anybody's knowledge since people are so firmly entrenched in their own belief system. Discussing the history of religion and its development is much more fascinating than debating the valdity of religion itself.

[Eface]

Originally Posted by Elly

So why do we need religon? To define whats right and whats wrong. To tell us how to live our lives

That's where justice and honor come in: i won't do that stuff for my own honor. And if you are talking about war and stuff: people want more and more, and become more egoistical. Seems something about churches in middleages was very clear in that(barok, anyone?)

either way, i've given up on wanting more and more, there's no end, and you'll always run behind others. As you might see, i don't look at stuff from a religious point of view. Simple way, in doing so, people might get pissed because of religion. And instead of fighting elly's argument, trying to prove superiority, MY BELIEF says that i should support him in it. And that is what i do. Elly, it's your belief that your belief will guide you the best. I hope that THAT will keep you from doing what you fear others without religion would do!

Elly you asked what stopped me from going to murder and stuff? see the above, instead of wanting more from anything, and fighting everyone, i gladly give stuff to people. Isn't this what christianity says, give? And almost all christians, of course, no personal attack to you, but lotsa christians, put themselves in a higher place than the rest.

Maybe because i grew up always tormented, i've grown to hate myself, for everything i was not. Now i've grown into something that still hates himself, but i seem to feel better when helping others. It gives me te feeling that my existence has importance to others, since i can tell you, my existence doesn't matter to me. That is what tormenting does with a person. God didn't help me one bit, the psych didn't help one bit, nor did my parents. Only person who helped me... was nobody. oh well, nobody cares about that anymore, not even me.

It did help me become who i am today though. And it did help me learn what i believe is just. Justice and honor is my belief. My honor is everything i really have, because the rest is material, and can dissapear without warning. If that would be all the wealth in the world, who would i be after that, nobody, so it's not important.
Justice is the power to help the ones who need it, and not to inflict harm or grief to the persons who broke the law. It should be prevented that those persons break the law in the first place. Not by suppressing them, because again, that would be forcefull, and would lead to uncontrolled violence.

But if someone would attack me on personal grounds, it would harm my honor, and i'd show that person i don't like that, by simply asking. Still not enough, i would ignore such person. If you can't listen, you're not worthy of my attention. Even i have some dignity.

Again, this is a long and stupid rant of me, but somehow, i have this weird feeling that if more people would live like this, instead of chasing their own selfish dream, the world could become better. But they shouldn't live like me, they should find out on their own, how they can make this world better, and the above shows how i feel i can do it right.

Question for the REALLY rich people: It's impossible to have all the wealth in the world, why do you still want it?

[_E_]

Originally Posted by Boltzmann

Just give me a passage from a history textbook describing your utopian times... can you do that?

well, here is a passage from a history site.
The known world, however, in the time of Jesus was largely
under Roman dominion. This was true of the land where Jesus was born. The
Roman Empire was then comparatively at peace, and it was the admonition of St.Paul that the first Christians should maintain that peace

source : http://www.ragz-international.com/ri...istianity1.htm

Also, on another matter, here is another story , the reign of Umar AbdelAziz, one of the rules who came after the Umayyads dynasty started. He who followed religon correctly, look at the state of his people :

All these beneficial measures added to the stability of the State and the prosperity of the people who lived in peace and tranquility. During his short reign of two years, people had grown so prosperous and contented that one could hardly find a person who would accept alms. The only discontented people were the members of the House of Umayyads who had been accustomed to a life of vice and luxury and could hardly change their heart.

source : http://www.renaissance.com.pk/novletfor95.html

Originally Posted by Boltzmann

BTW, the killing rates in the US have been steadily decreasing since the 1990s, you should check your sources before broadcasting popular misconceptions.

/me slaps boltzmann with a large trout

Looking at the statistics, there have been efforts which decreased them

Yours,
-Elly

[Eface]

Umar AbdelAziz... i don't think that guy would be a christian

Please guys, as this is my topic, don't go nagging on each other. A good debate is good, but i don't want this topic closed yet.

Oh yeah, and for you historians: We are living now, and that's the truth. What are the religions doing today, as i see it, it's not doing much good of a job controlling people not to kill. That goes for a lot of religions. But that again, that is just my feeling.

[Boltzmann]

Originally Posted by Elly

well, here is a passage from a history site.
The known world, however, in the time of Jesus was largely
under Roman dominion. This was true of the land where Jesus was born. The
Roman Empire was then comparatively at peace, and it was the admonition of St.Paul that the first Christians should maintain that peace

source : http://www.ragz-international.com/ri...istianity1.htm
(...)

It appears that the article is talking about "peace" in the sense of "not in war". But this is not exclusive to early christianity - many countries in the world are not involved in wars today, and rarely were involved (Brazil certainly qualifies, and although I'm not sure I think Canada would qualify as well).

The fact is that criminality rates haven't changed much in our history. As ProtoMan pointed out population has increased exponentially, along with communications technology - therefore there are more opportunities for crimes to happen and more ways for us to know about them. But mankind isn't in a downward spiral morally speaking - we're pretty much stabilized (though I would say that we're not mature yet - we're still too much anthropocentric and bigoted in our dealings).

BTW, how do you explain ethical behavior in highly social animals, like the african apes? They have societies that are very like our own, and they do exhibit ethical behavior, despite the absence of religion. Apes have no religion, but they do not eat their parents' flesh or kill their neighbors because of it.

[Eface]

Damn, how you you guys all know this stuff? you're getting me puzzled... I'm sorry i won't be able to join you guys at a debate of this level.

[Esturk]

As far as I know.. According to the story of Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve etc... Were Dinosaurs ever mentioned? Where did they come from? It's apparent that the dinosaurs were around long before man was. Somebody explain this to me. I have been told by a religious person that dinosaur bones were planted into the earth to fool us.... Now why would somebody want to do something like that?