Do you think suicide is right?

[BigIg]

OK, so I'm finding it pretty ****ed up how some of you are insulting people who have killed themselves, because some of my close family members have. :/

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[Paratech]

It certainly won't stop bullies, rapists, or other people from carrying out their evil deeds, in fact they'll be happy they broke you and that you finished what they started.

Why do people bully, rape, torture, or hurt others? because the evildoer sees him/herself as superior to the person s/he is victimizing and feels that it is ok to do evil to that person. If the person kills him/herself, then that person was broken by the evildoer and the evildoer is happy.

Quote by BigIg
--------------
"OK, so I'm finding it pretty ****ed up how some of you are insulting people who have killed themselves, because some of my close family members have. :/ "

I'm sorry they made bad decisions. I stick by the fact I think it is usually wrong to kill yourself. I'll bet you cared about those people and that they obviously didn't realize how much it hurts survivors when you're literally cutting yourself apart from your loved ones, possibly for eternity.

My girlfriend had an aunt who did that, and I don't think her aunt saw past her own pain to the pain she inflicted upon her family and friends by killing herself. I think suicide tends to be selfish, it is all about me, and not about how we are all connected. People are so disconnected today they often fail to realize how important they are to other people.

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Last edited by Paratech; August 28th, 2008 at 03:54..

[Proto]

So far, the points against suicide majorly sums up in:

- It shows weakness in your determination to life. (most points like nothing comes after death, think positive, etc. can be summed up in this point).
- It hurts those arounds you

Now the real question is, are these actually valid points for us to absolutely determine that suicide is the wrong option, no matter the situation? Is life such a compelling thing that it must be continued no matter the circumstances? Heck, what sense does life has then when it becomes nothing but a duty and something out of a sense of obligation?

It is my belief that suicide should be left a choice for every person to make by himself. Each person is a world, and it should be left for that person to decide on his very own world. Suicide by itself is completely amoral, it is the circumstances around the person that commits it that gives it some value. (whether good or bad)

And hence we return to our original point that the right to die is something that should be guaranteed to every person.

Either that or giving a death penalty to suicide attempts

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[emwearz]

If someone feels so alone and depressed that they feel suicide is the only option, who are we to really judge them, we can never know the pain they were in if they thought that ending there lives was the only way out.

Thats not to say that there might not have been other options, but I think some people need to try and remember that we each can deal with emotions and events in out lives in different ways. Be more sympathetic of both the people who ended there own lives and the family and friends who are left to pick up the pieces.

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[Paratech]

Originally Posted by emwearz

If someone feels so alone and depressed that they feel suicide is the only option, who are we to really judge them, we can never know the pain they were in if they thought that ending there lives was the only way out.

Thats not to say that there might not have been other options, but I think some people need to try and remember that we each can deal with emotions and events in out lives in different ways. Be more sympathetic of both the people who ended there own lives and the family and friends who are left to pick up the pieces.

If the person who committed suicide had thought that through, their family and friends may have been spared needless suffering.

When a person thinks about killing themself are they thinking...

Someone has to find the body.....

Someone has to identify the body....

Someone has to notify next of kin....

Someone has to pay funeral expenses, deal with debt/financial situations, there is no insurance for suicide, counseling, the person's friends and family may blame themselves for his/her death....

If you see people as individuals, suicide may sometimes be ok, but if you see people as part of a bigger group, you will see why suicide is bad.

Contrary to popular belief, we need each other, I'll guess that most people who even visit websites do so for socialization.

Each person is important to the group, that is my belief.

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[MT]

Originally Posted by Paratech

My girlfriend had an aunt who did that, and I don't think her aunt saw past her own pain to the pain she inflicted upon her family and friends by killing herself. I think suicide tends to be selfish, it is all about me, and not about how we are all connected. People are so disconnected today they often fail to realize how important they are to other people.

You can be important to someone but I am pretty sure if your life ends, the other one's does not. You can pass away, the people who like you will be sad for the first months but their lives will keep going on and you'll be eventually only a memory in a few years. It's not like people are replaceable (or they are?), but it's a pain that will be gone and will be replaced by new discoveries/new pleasures from life.

Unless you take as example the really old people couples whom were married for 50 years and when one of them die, the other dies within a few weeks.

Originally Posted by Emmy

If someone feels so alone and depressed that they feel suicide is the only option, who are we to really judge them, we can never know the pain they were in if they thought that ending there lives was the only way out.

My thoughts exactly, cos it's so easy to say "suicide is bad" when you have never been depressed to death literally.

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[Paratech]

There's a difference in how people accept the death of someone with an illness, or murder, or an accident, vs killing oneself.

If a person is ill, their family and friends may feel the person is no longer suffering, and if they are religious, feel the person may be better off not suffering.

If the person was murdered, there may be outrage and a sense of justice, a desire the murderer be punished.

If the person died of old age, there may be acceptance, that it was the person's time.

But suicide is a way of saying that the person's life was so terrible that it was better to end it than to continue to live, and how are family and friends to feel when a person feels better seperating her/himself from everyone? also many religions frown on suicide and consider it a "sin"... a serious one at that, and how are friends and family to feel thinking that their loved one may be eternally suffering because they might have failed to reach out to her/him and helped the person continue to survive?

We are connected, all of our behavior influences and impacts many other people, we're just not always conscious of that fact.

Separating yourself from humanity is bad.

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[mudlord]

Why should suicide be respected just because its a choice?

Yes. If someone close to you wants to die, just let them.

Rape and murders a choice do you respect that?

Yes. If people want to make stupid decisions its thier choice! And they can deal with the legal repercussions. No one else.

BUT TO KILL YOURSELF FOR NOTHING? THEN SORRY IMO YOU ARE MOST CERTAINLY SCREWED IN THE HEAD.

CONGRATULATIONS SHERLOCK FOR SPITTING IN THE FACE OF PEOPLE WITH REAL MENTAL PROBLEMS!

You are a nasty piece of work, aren't you?

White surpremacy is rife on this forum I see.....

[Paratech]

Originally Posted by mudlord

Yes. If someone close to you wants to die, just let them.



Yes. If people want to make stupid decisions its thier choice! And they can deal with the legal repercussions. No one else.



CONGRATULATIONS SHERLOCK FOR SPITTING IN THE FACE OF PEOPLE WITH REAL MENTAL PROBLEMS!

You are a nasty piece of work, aren't you?

White surpremacy is rife on this forum I see.....

I think it's pretty callous to let someone commit suicide, it's like saying they have nothing left to offer the world.

Sometimes just existing and letting people take care of you is a contribution. There's too many people equating the value of someone's life to financial, political, or social inequities, but there is more to people than money, possessions, power, influence, or politics.

BTW, what does white supremacy have to do with suicide?

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Last edited by Paratech; August 28th, 2008 at 05:40.. Reason: typo...

[MT]

Originally Posted by Para

But suicide is a way of saying that the person's life was so terrible that it was better to end it than to continue to live,

But that's why suicide has been 'invented'. ;p

and how are family and friends to feel when a person feels better seperating her/himself from everyone? also many religions frown on suicide and consider it a "sin"... a serious one at that, and how are friends and family to feel thinking that their loved one may be eternally suffering because they might have failed to reach out to her/him and helped the person continue to survive?

Dunno if it was you or someone else who said that suicide is a selfish decision... and indeed it is. It was a decision made by individual himself, maybe not with mental equilibrium, but it was HIS decision. All the family can do is to swallow it. The person had all the rights to do with his life what he wanted. On this specific debate, cutting his own life out.

We are connected, all of our behavior influences and impacts many other people, we're just not always conscious of that fact.

Indeed, the same way we have to learn and understand when people come and go away, despite the way they come or go away.

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[mudlord]

I think it's pretty callous to let someone commit suicide, it's like saying they have nothing left to offer the world.

Well, what else can they do when they want to give up everything? They can't do jack ****. So, its better they are dead than being alive and being brought up in this place we know as Earth.

what does white supremacy have to do with suicide?

Attitudes that people have towards people with suicidal ideations which are due to mental conditions and not of thier own circumstances. Such as Phils comment...:
"BUT TO KILL YOURSELF FOR NOTHING? THEN SORRY IMO YOU ARE MOST CERTAINLY SCREWED IN THE HEAD. "

[Spyhop]

Originally Posted by mudlord

Attitudes that people have towards people with suicidal ideations which are due to mental conditions and not of thier own circumstances. Such as Phils comment...:
"BUT TO KILL YOURSELF FOR NOTHING? THEN SORRY IMO YOU ARE MOST CERTAINLY SCREWED IN THE HEAD. "

You're being incoherent and you still haven't explained your claim that this argument has anything to do with white supremacy.

Hang on. This should be good.



K....go.

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[Gladiator@]

Originally Posted by mudlord

Yes. If someone close to you wants to die, just let them.

Man, it's really disturbing for me to read something like that. Come on, guys! If someone, close or not to me, wants to die I won't just let he die. I'll talk to him to try to understand why he could even think of doing something like that. To take out his own life. And then do everything I can to help him. And that, is the least we can do. To help someone who needs our help so badly.
Life is the biggest gift we have, we can't just give up living. I understand that sometimes, everybody, EVERYBODY, feels weak and go through bad moments, don't think it's an exclusive feeling because it's not. Everybody needs help of our family and friends and this is not something that happens once in a life time.
Nobody can be happy forever, and that is why life is so good. If we were always happy, from the day we born until the day we die, happiness wouldn't be so good. It'd be just something we wouldn't care about. Happiness would turn into a ordinary feeling.
We need to learn to deal with our feelings, we need to get sad to see how good it is to be happy.
Have you born sad? No. Don't you have any happy memory? Of course you do. All you have to do is to find a way to bring that happiness back! I know that is not always easy. But it's necessary. And no, you don't have the right to take out your life. Not because that's the easy way out, but because the pain it will cause to the people who love you will never pass. And I disagree with you here, Mire. The pain caused by a friend/relative's death won't be "replaced by new discoveries/new pleasures". It just won't. I already lost some people I loved and I can tell you that it just gets worse with the time. Because the pain caused by the possibility to forget someone you love is as horrible as death itself.

I get sad by seeing what some of you guys think about life. Life was never meant to be a fard. If it is, if you really are so sad that you think you can't be happy anymore it's because there's something very wrong.

There's always hope, for a better life, for a better "you". Your life power is accessed and directed by your thoughts. If you think "you can't", "you won't", how could something good happen? Tell me.

I need to believe you and start doing something to change your life if it's not like you want it to be. Your life won't change, your life won't get better if you do nothing about it, if you just stay home, thinking how sad you are, how poor your life is and how everybody else's life is better than yours. You have to stand up and start running after your dreams, after what can make you happier.

Stop. And think.
If you want a girlfriend, a better job, friends or whatever. See that as an objective and go after it. Don't think: "I'm sad, my life sucks. ... I'm going to play Team Fortress 2 so I can forget all those problems, pretend I'm someone else and not think about my life for 2 hours". That kind of behavior won't do any better for you. Learn from your mistakes, stop running away from your problems, stop hidding from life, stop thinking you are the most unlucky person in the world and, finally, stop pretending it's ok to do all these things. Go out and create your own opportunities. It's just your life you are losing, after all. Right?

There are so many of us now who are living our lives through the observance of the lives of others. The most memorable experiences will be the ones you discover for yourself, so get up off that couch and create a life of your own. It's the only way to fix what's wrong.

It's up to you, and only to you, to have a better life.

"The power to be what you want to be, to get what you desire, to accomplish whatever you are striving for, abides within you. It rests with you only to bring it forth and put it to work. You must learn how to do that, of course, but the first essential is to realize that you possess this power, your first objective to get acquainted with it."
-- Robert Collier, The Secret of the Ages

__________________

Originally Posted by snickothemule

It was decided by one on one battles to the death at the Roman coliseum in Rome. There were over 72 contestants and Gladiator@ was the victor. His extensive knowledge and cunning enabled him to defeat all those who opposed him. His victory has given him title 'Official Matchmaker of Recyclebinia'.

If you wish to dispute this then there must be a battle to define the winner. Being the current champion Gladiator@ has pickings on the battle location and stipulations of the match.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Originally Posted by Paratech

I think it's pretty callous to let someone commit suicide, it's like saying they have nothing left to offer the world.

They feel like it, they don't want to know anything else of the world.

What will you do instead of let them die? Tell them what you tell here? That life is beautiful, that they are selfish, they must think of the rest?

C'mon, if it's not working with people who favors suicide in this forum, will it really work with people who are totally decided and experiencing things that that don't even know?


To everyone:
You know what sickens me?
That a lot of people express opinions when they have never been depressed literally to death. That's just an opinion on something that you don't know.

You are sitting on a higher moral ground and making opinions on other people's lives while you have never got down of that moral ground and experienced what they feel.

You express it's bad but... have you been there? Do you know how it feels?
If you have been there and continued to live... what others told you worked?

While you express your opinions I see something:
It's not about somebody's death but about you and how you feel about him. You are the one who don't want to suffer, to think that you could have done more. You are the one who don't want to be alone, the one who don't want to mess with all the papers and funerals and all the grieving. That's being selfish in the purest of forms.

You are asking a guy who wants to die to think of others. His response most of the time is: ok, but who thinks about me? And my feelings? You are thinking about your own feelings towards suicide, not about me.

__________________


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Last edited by Kazuya Mishima; August 28th, 2008 at 07:37..

[PCXL-Fan]

As sad as it sounds Ill give you an example where suicide can be helpful towards others. Using the horrible infant sex change operation example I gave in previous threads.

If the people who had these infant sex change operations none of them ever commited suicide it would never convince half the stubborn medical establishments to rethink the validity of these operations. As sad as it is, only the fact that there were so many suicides carried out was enough to make people question how horrible infant gender reassignment was.

In fact the mother of the person who had the gender reassignment operation the video, was in complete denial, just like the doctors, and only after her son committed suicide was it enough to convince her and bring her out of denial.

Still the doctor himself, never accepted it and remained in denial and never appologized for all the peoples lives he utter ruined.

It was only the suicides that prompted the new agencies to start reporting about it and start questioning these doctors.

Sometimes there are no solutions to solve people's problems and make them worth living again. We don't live in this fallen from eden christian world where the mind can overcome ANY obstacle and people can do anything. Attaining this eden ideal world is impossible no matter howmuch will power and mind is put into it. The idea of a perfect answer for everything and a perfect world is a pervasive christian idea that needs to be put to rest, and those that don't accept it are simply in denial themselves. Many problems don't have a perfect conclusion. Its impossible to make the world and everybodies lives perfect.

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Last edited by PCXL-Fan; August 28th, 2008 at 07:12..

[mudlord]

You're being incoherent and you still haven't explained your claim that this argument has anything to do with white supremacy.

Incoherant? Well then, I will be extremely clear:
People here in this forum are very close minded when it comes to the notion that certain mental illnesses do play a role in suicide in cases. These illnesses can cause suicide for no apparent reason to others. And people then make unfair comments, because of this, or most likely, they just don't have a ****ing clue.

Just like retarded white supremists like yourself.

Is that clear enough? Or is it still obtuse, even to you? In the latter case, there is no hope then >.>

That's being selfish in the purest of forms.

Yep, double standards ain't it. Thats what I don't get about this mob. Being pro life and all, yet even they run afoul of being selfish. It makes me laugh. Really. That is epic fail, right there.

Man, it's really disturbing for me to read something like that.

Disturbing? I am just saying what I truly think about the subject. To me, I honestly don't see why people care so much. Afterall, who gives a damn? Its just a bit of blood. Who cares if your "best friend" decides to spill some friggin blood! If you really care, you will saw off thier hand to make them bleed to death.

[Gladiator@]

Originally Posted by PCXL-Fan

Sometimes there are no solutions to solve people's problems and make them worth living again. We don't live in this fallen from eden christian world where the mind can overcome ANY obstacle and people can do anything. Attaining this eden ideal world is impossible no matter howmuch will power and mind is put into it. The idea of a perfect answer for everything and a perfect world is a pervasive christian idea that needs to be put to rest, and those that don't accept it are simply in denial themselves. Many problems don't have a perfect conclusion. Its impossible to make the world and everybodies lives perfect.

All I can say is that I'm sorry to know you think that way.
And I didn't said that religion or will power can solve every problem.
Maybe, some problems have no solution, but I think in that case, the person should try to live with that problem, trying to be happy no matter what difficulties she have. We only have one life and we should do everything we can to enjoy this life and every good thing it can give to us.
There are so many examples of people who surpassed problems/difficulties that for many people was unsurpassable and are living their lives, enjoying he fact that they are alive.
Maybe that's the point of life: to try to be happy no matter what.

Yeah, its impossible to make the world and everybody's lives perfect. But who said it needs to be perfect to be enjoyable? Nothing or nobody is perfect.

Originally Posted by PCXL-Fan

As sad as it sounds Ill give you an example where suicide can be helpful towards others. Using the horrible infant sex change operation example I gave in previous threads.

Yeah, I agree that that thing is horrible but I don't think those several suicides was the only way to make people understand how big that problem is.
Perhaps that was the fastest way possible to achieve that. But it wasn't the only.

But that doctor is a monster. I understand that those lives was seriously damaged and it's easier to say than to do (and it's even easier because it wasn't with us) but the best they can do is to try to find a way to enjoy their lives after what happened. It's difficult, I know, but it's the only thing they can do now to help themselves.

__________________

Originally Posted by snickothemule

It was decided by one on one battles to the death at the Roman coliseum in Rome. There were over 72 contestants and Gladiator@ was the victor. His extensive knowledge and cunning enabled him to defeat all those who opposed him. His victory has given him title 'Official Matchmaker of Recyclebinia'.

If you wish to dispute this then there must be a battle to define the winner. Being the current champion Gladiator@ has pickings on the battle location and stipulations of the match.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Originally Posted by Gladiator@

But that doctor is a monster. I understand that those lives was seriously damaged and it's easier to say than to do (and it's even easier because it wasn't with us) but the best they can do is to try to find a way to enjoy their lives after what happened. It's difficult, I know, but it's the only thing they can do now to help themselves.

You said it yourself: try.
There willl be times when they try with all their might until the weight they are carring all their life is too much and then...

__________________


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[PCXL-Fan]

Originally Posted by Gladiator@

All I can say is that I'm sorry to know you think that way.
And I didn't said that religion or will power can solve every problem.
Maybe, some problems have no solution, but I think in that case, the person should try to live with that problem, trying to be happy no matter what difficulties she have.

Yeah, its impossible to make the world and everybody's lives perfect. But who said it needs to be perfect to be enjoyable? Nothing or nobody is perfect.

Who said life was even tolerable for him? He was suffering immensely.

Yeah, I agree that that thing is horrible but I don't think those several suicides was the only way to make people understand how big that problem is.
Perhaps that was the fastest way possible to achieve that. But it wasn't the only.

Those doctors were as stubborn as ****. To much pride and reputation on the line that they had subconsiously dismiss and block out all evidence of negativity. The doctors livelyhoods were on the line. They has kids to feed, college tuitions to pay.

You see this type of stubborness in every scientific and medical field. Its a human flaw. They don't want to accept they are this wrong and have harmed others, its too much to take. Its so much easier to live in denial.

If the victims continued to struggle with living who knows how much success the doctors would claim. The treatment might have spread outside of northamerica and hundreds of others might have had their lives ruined because of the treatment.

But that doctor is a monster. I understand that those lives was seriously damaged and it's easier to say than to do (and it's even easier because it wasn't with us) but the best they can do is to try to find a way to enjoy their lives after what happened. It's difficult, I know, but it's the only thing they can do now to help themselves.

What David Reimer and others who commited suicide did was the ultimate sacrifice. His life was already in the sh!tter, he had been campaigning against infant gender reassignment for years and years with limited success. What he did was the most powerful and impacting possible statement of how ruinous it was.

It was the only thing that would get through the doctors think skulls and stop them from twisting their perception of these peoples lives post treatment into something positive.

Of course you should never promote suicide this and try to prevent it, but you have to understand what they are going though and in some circumstances why they did it.

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Originally Posted by Exodus

Yes, I like anime, Street Fighter, Japanese music and download video game music. Yes, I know... I've changed.

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Last edited by PCXL-Fan; August 28th, 2008 at 08:32..

[mudlord]

Of course you should never promote suicide this and try to prevent it

I beg to differ.