Do you think suicide is right?

[Kazuya Mishima]

Nope, just showing you that my opinion, as biased as it sounds and constructed in the same way as yours is as valid as yours. Yet I didn't impose it and you don't see me here saying you are "stupid and weak" because I can't understand something as simple as you being in another place even If I believe you should be in other totally opposite.

I have been there regarding suicide, I know how it feels like. You don't. Are you coming here to tell me it's totally different without even knowing it first hand? I don't see me coming here telling you to be in another country either because... I can't know for sure, It's your life, not mine. See?

Or should I call you stupid because I think everyone called gamefreak SHOULD be in some country as the one I have in mind even if in reality he is in another one with his particular circumstances?

You know where you are and nobody is gonna come here and tell you otherwise.
I know how it feels and nobody is gonna come here and tell me otherwise.

I though a practical example was needed

__________________


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[gamefreak94]

I've said it before and I'll say it now, the mere word "stupid" was just plain old humor and meant to add a little bit spice to this otherwise boring discussion (most people would find it that way and I'm not complaining see) Oh, and, won't it be good if we narrowed down our argument to one thread rather then saying the same thing in 2. Well unless, you're looking for an excuse to increase your post count

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[Nightmare]

Originally Posted by Bamsmacked

People need to think about how things are in third world countries and how people REALLY are suffering, and really need to ask themselves just how terrible their life really is.

What is this "third world countries" statement about? They are suffering??? How? Can explain more? Must make sense cos i am living in one of these so called "third world countries". Hope you didn't simply said something you don't know or just assumed.

[V1ncent]

Seconded. That statement was not good at all.

We are developing nations. So what ? That doesn't makes us the 'suffering ones'.

[gamefreak94]

Originally Posted by V1ncent

Seconded. That statement was not good at all.

We are developing nations. So what ? That doesn't makes us the 'suffering ones'.

Well, although I don't live that far from you nor do I live in a nation which is any better you can't say that we are living the high-life are we? Nevertheless, I'll say it again, that doesn't make it a justifiable excuse for committing suicide.

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[Soul Eater]

I hear more about people in Japan committing suicide more than I hear about suicides in 3 world countries.

So much for "advanced" countries.

__________________
Strike you down and send you straight to Hell.

[V1ncent]

Originally Posted by gamefreak94

Well, although I don't live that far from you nor do I live in a nation which is any better you can't say that we are living the high-life are we? Nevertheless, I'll say it again, that doesn't make it a justifiable excuse for committing suicide.

We may not have high standard of living. Many in our countries may don't have much to eat. But there is a way to say that.

I am not angry with you Bamsmacked, some people think that way, you just accidently hinted it.

[Proto]

We are just doing this? C'mon, we are just rehashing the arguments from the first 40 posts.... even the part about 1st world countries and about Japan having a higher suicide rate.... move on, nothing to see here.

__________________

[Urine Sample]

Originally Posted by Proto

We are just doing this? C'mon, we are just rehashing the arguments from the first 40 posts.... even the part about 1st world countries and about Japan having a higher suicide rate.... move on, nothing to see here.

Its true, people dont seem to be taking in each others points at all. We all seem to fixated with our own opinions. I think the only way we'll find out who's right in this topic is for us to kill ourselves

[gamefreak94]

Its because this is a very sensitive topic for some people (including me) and personally, this is one of the few topics where I have zero tolerance for other people and their wild opinions (yes, "wild", don't bug me about homenim ad all over again)

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[Proto]

Ad hominem actually, but in this case you are just qualifying my opinions and not myself, so it's not my hominem. (It is getting near an appeal to ridicule though, so be careful )

In any case, if you have zero tolerance then you shouldn't be debating at all. You debate because you are expected to hear opinions vastly different than yours. A debate isn't only about who is the most dexterous in presenting his arguments, but about people who actually stop to present and debate their points. Hence when some people take the time to write lengthy posts, I read it and only post after at least 20 minutes where I am sure I have sufficiently digested what the other party has to convey.

In any case, I can agree with suicide detractors about the social consequences of suicide and its social irrationality. A society that openly accepts suicide cannot survive for obvious reasons. Yet a society than denies this kind of social rights of its members eventually starts to crumble from the pressure (I think the most obvious example is Japan in its 80's). That's why I previously mentioned that suicide should be institutionalized and put behind an accepted legal process. So that we can make sure that the social consequences of suicide can be minimized, and yet that the individual rights of the suicidee are protected.

__________________

[Samor]

Originally Posted by Proto

Unless it is something product of a psychological unbalance (in which case it warrants psychological help), suicide is one of the most difficult choices to make in our life.

I think in most cases it's a psychological imbalance.
Someone said to me once you could see it as a disease, and because we do not know what was going on in that person's head we perhaps shouldn't judge it either. If you see it that way, that means the person perhaps couldn't help it himself.
It makes you think twice to get angry at someone when he does commit suicide, although it can be hard when you see what they sometimes leave behind.

Cowardice? I don't think stabbing yourself or something like that is a sign of cowardice. Rather, an extremely hopeless situation - however, I can't imagine it, I've (fortunately) never been there.

Someone else said it's selfish. Again, who knows? We don't know what the person was thinking....

Looking from my comfortable "normal life chair", yes, I'm against it and I think it's wrong... but I can't for the life imagine how that person felt.

Originally Posted by Proto

And hence we return to our original point that the right to die is something that should be guaranteed to every person.

oh, don't worry, so far everyone who was once alive had their fill, wether they did it themselves or not.

Originally Posted by emwearz

If someone feels so alone and depressed that they feel suicide is the only option, who are we to really judge them, we can never know the pain they were in if they thought that ending there lives was the only way out.

Thats not to say that there might not have been other options, but I think some people need to try and remember that we each can deal with emotions and events in out lives in different ways. Be more sympathetic of both the people who ended there own lives and the family and friends who are left to pick up the pieces.

I have to agree with that...

Originally Posted by Paratech

If the person who committed suicide had thought that through, their family and friends may have been spared needless suffering.

...which is why I think a person can be in a mental state where rational thinking has gone out of the window. Perhaps the person was ill, just in a different way than what's commonly referred to as illness or disease.

But, if I knew someone close to me was planning suicide, I'd try to stop him, because despite not knowing what's going on inside him, I still feel it's the wrong choice.

Originally Posted by Proto

It's a really delicate matter, and it is not the perfect solution, but specialized counseling centers for these people should be established so that the alternatives, should there be any, can be presented to the person who wants to suicide. Only when he has gone through this process and the person in question is truly convinced that he wants to suicide, when it is clear that it is a rational decision and not just an emotional one taken in the gist of the moment or because of an psychological imbalance., should the person who wants to suicide be given help so he can pass aways in the most painless way possible, both for him and for the people around him.

I think in many cases, these decisions are heavily based on emotions and much less rational... so I don't think this would work all that well.


(hope I didn't make a too large post)

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[Kazuya Mishima]

Originally Posted by gamefreak94

Its because this is a very sensitive topic for some people (including me) and personally, this is one of the few topics where I have zero tolerance for other people and their wild opinions (yes, "wild", don't bug me about homenim ad all over again)

You said it yourself. Zero tolerance? Then you can't make a discussion if you don't hear other people posts. That's why you are writing in a disqualifying manner even before somebody else cna reply. There is no point in replying to you since you have zero tolerance. Why debate at all?

To discuss you need 2 people not one guy talking and the rest agreeing. You expect it to be the second. Proto said it better.

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[Proto]

oh, don't worry, so far everyone who was once alive had their fill, wether they did it themselves or not.

Ok well, maybe I should have phrased it as the ability to decide the time of your death

But, if I knew someone close to me was planning suicide, I'd try to stop him, because despite not knowing what's going on inside him, I still feel it's the wrong choice.

My uncle is a psychologist, and during his youth he worked for various public hospitals. He once told me about a case of his, where a girl arrived in the most lamentable state. The girl had aquired poliomyelitis at a young age, so she had heavy deformations on her legs, and couldn't walk at all. Her family was poor, so she never received any kind of treatment or help, and was treated like a dog in the house, the family never sent her to school or let her step out of the house. She received physical abuse on a frequent basis apparently, specially from her alcoholic father, who after 13 years of this situation decided to sexually violate her daughter. After this trauma, the girl managed to escape the house, however as she had no means to support herself even in the most basic levels she had to resort to prostitution. Eventually she fell intro drug addiction. One day she realized the kind of life she was leading and the situation she was in, and decided to suicide by overdosing herself. Unfortunately, the suicide wasn't succesful, however because of the brain damage she lost all mobility and could only move from her neck upwards. It was in that state that my uncle arrived to her, with the task of giving her psychological treatment and raising her spirits. The first question my uncle asked himself: "Is it even worth it?"

With the kind of trauma she had received and the bleach future that was in front of her, was there any point left in life?"

__________________

[Samor]

Originally Posted by Proto

Ok well, maybe I should have phrased it as the ability to decide the time of your death

I thought you meant that. My apologies for the cheap shot.

My uncle is a psychologist, and during his youth he worked for various public hospitals. He once told me about a case of his, where a girl arrived in the most lamentable state. The girl had aquired poliomyelitis at a young age, so she had heavy deformations on her legs, and couldn't walk at all. Her family was poor, so she never received any kind of treatment or help, and was treated like a dog in the house, the family never sent her to school or let her step out of the house. She received physical abuse on a frequent basis apparently, specially from her alcoholic father, who after 13 years of this situation decided to sexually violate her daughter. After this trauma, the girl managed to escape the house, however as she had no means to support herself even in the most basic levels she had to resort to prostitution. Eventually she fell intro drug addiction. One day she realized the kind of life she was leading and the situation she was in, and decided to suicide by overdosing herself. Unfortunately, the suicide wasn't succesful, however because of the brain damage she lost all mobility and could only move from her neck upwards. It was in that state that my uncle arrived to her, with the task of giving her psychological treatment and raising her spirits. The first question my uncle asked himself: "Is it even worth it?"

With the kind of trauma she had received and the bleach future that was in front of her, was there any point left in life?"

If I came across someone a situation like that, I think I wouldn't know what to do.

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[Squall-Leonhart]

Originally Posted by Soul Eater

You lost someone so you know what suffering is. Some people fall in a constant state of depression after something like that. Can you really blame them for that?

That depends on whether the problem is REAL. some people are depressed because they chose to be depressed. they chose only to see the bad in life, and so only get the bad in life.

For the others, and those others are a minority. the problem is Real, their brains are hit with the incorrect amount of certain hormones and chemicals, and so do need drug treatments.

Originally Posted by Kazuya Mishima

The problem Schumi, is taht ypou are trying to find a logical answer as to why people commit sucuicide which there is none. It's like love. You can see objectively that he guy clearly can leave the girl who is making his life a hell. Then you talk to him and even if he knows the logical thing to do he insists in being with her.

With suicide and depression is the same. There is a logical answer but people involved can see it objectively and find a better solution.


Squall and Gamefreak, stop being a prick. One thing is not to agree on something and other totally different is to LOWER THE REST OF THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T THINK LIKE YOU. Get down of your F.. pedestals. Learn to proper word your sentences unless to offend others was your original intention.

Suicide is for pussies. You either live life, with all its ups or downs, or you chicken out and end it.

In the end its just Darwins theory in practice. Natural selection.

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Last edited by Squall-Leonhart; September 15th, 2008 at 03:00.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[Proto]

Suicide is for pussies. You either live life, with all its ups or downs, or you chicken out and end it.

Yeah, it says so in the contract you signed up when you were born.

Oh wait, forgot there is no contract and life has whatever meaning you give to it. Sorry.

The human psyche can only take so much. As you say, there are people out there with real, heavy, often unsurmountable problems. It is great when they can overcome them, however backing out is an option that should be within everyone's reach. What would you tell the girl I described in my previous post then? If you say that when it is so extreme of a case then it may become a valid option, then who is to say where a circumstance is extreme or not?

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[Squall-Leonhart]

What you all tend to forgot is these people feel isolated. And most would easily pick the life choice if someone bothered to prove to show they give a damn. My friend morgan was the suicidal type, after being raped at 12. everyone turned against her like it was her fault, or like she was infected by something.

Its not her fault we live in a world where everybody cares to much about social status that they feel they have to join in on the ribbing. Her actions however, are her fault. She could've made the choice to end it all, and one on occasion she very nearly did. But al it took was someone to say **** social status, and become friends with her, to change her entire look on life.

Gladly, that friendship, i count as one of my best, As its not about fake standing and ego boosting.

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[Proto]

What you all tend to forgot is these people feel isolated. And most would easily pick the life choice if someone bothered to prove to show they give a damn. My friend morgan was the suicidal type, after being raped at 12. everyone turned against her like it was her fault, or like she was infected by something.

But of course. People often turn up to a reaching hand whenever they are offered one. Much of the suicidees situation is within society and the circumstances it creates. That much is undeniable.

However, as I said, such a possibility is open only for people who are offered such a chance (like your friend) and for whom they haven't passed the breaking point. What about the thousand of souls out there no one cares about and are living a hell in Earth just because they cannot even give themselves the coup the grace? Of course, suicide in this case becomes only an individual, isolated solution that solves the problem only for the person who undertakes it. A social change is needed, that much is understood. However, by the time the changes come for most of these people it will be too late anyway and we will have condemned to recreate their own suffering for all the time they were alive.

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[Squall-Leonhart]

And that's why I don't discriminate in my choice of friends. I don't do it out of pity either, Obviously if they feel life is so unfair, then they must have some interesting backstory, and are usually the friends who stick it out with you no matter the occasion.

And its often these friends who will also understand and agree with why i think suicidee's are wimps. They all lived, and it got better. Clearly, And again, theres another time i would allow for a suicide, is where there is no quality of life. Such as going from having 4 limbs, to no limbs. I easily would've supported Christopher Reeves, had he chosen to die, because his life was made hard. However, even with that, he still saw the good in life and chose to live. And i won't forget what his choice gave the science community. Did you know he got partial movement back in his legs in a pool?.

Anyway, I hate with a passion, people who have pathetic reasons for suicide, Life isn't fair, isn't a good reason. its a complaint that we all make.

I've got no friends isn't a good reason either, Not everyone is looking for friends, rather keeping to the small circles they make.

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