The Power of today PC hardware for Emulation World

[magoroku]

Lets start a discussion here shall we.
With the release of today high end PC videocard hardware like the GeForce 4 TI and ATI Radeon 9700 thats we knows faster than any of the Next Generation console out there in the market now I'm wondering.
It's amazes me after i have read about the specs and power of these card that imho are really spectacular and jaw dropping.
It's sure beats those PS2 & X-Box out of the water !!
And i just wanna know the potential of this hardware if it's used for the next generation console emulation like PS2, GameCube, Xbox or Dreamcast. Will its finally possible with the power of today generation PC ??
Combine the Radeon9700 with the Pentium4 2,8 Ghz (just released) and 256 MB RDRam 1066Mhz!! And u have the power of 3 or 4 times faster than the X-Box !!! (Pentium3 733Mhz w/ GeForce3 and only 64MB DDR of Ram)...we know that Xbox have the best hardware than it's competitor.
But the specs of Xbox it's just like a mid-end PC everyone have nowadays....
And then we have the AMD Hammer coming next year !!!
The first 64bit RISC processor for our beloved PC !!!
So the point it's i wants to hear about your thoughts and opinions about this. C'mon !!! What do ya think about this ???
Give me your 2cent plz !
:o

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[fivefeet8]

Umm.. Check out all the other "PS2", "Xbox", and "Gamecube" emulation threads.. Emulation requires a lot more processsing power than you think.. And the Hammer cpu from AMD is not a RISC processor.. It's gonna be a 64bit extension of the 32bit x86 Cisc processors..

Yes.. All those new hardware does wonders for 'PC games'.. But emulation is another story.. Look at what kind of system it takes to emulate a PSx1.. Or the Snes.. I am not doubting emulation of the next gen consoles will happen, but just not as quickly and as easily as some of you think it will..

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Last edited by fivefeet8; August 27th, 2002 at 18:50..

[Syed Fawad]

I read that the newly released 2.8MHz P4 is overclockable upto 3.5GHz (something like changing the 100MHz bus with 133MHz or whatever). I believe that this is enoug ht to just run the games with respectable framerate, of cours in a low resolution with not much Special fx. The NV30 again is another story

Just the software problem remains

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[neural-shock]

ok, here are my 2 cents...

Emulating something requires an enourmous processing power compared to the original machine.... so that 'l33t' machine you have in your post wouldn't be fast enough to emulate ps2 and gamecube (as for xbox I don't know, because of it's x86 architecture and win2k/directx-based kernel). And emulation isn't as simple as snapping fingers.

Creating an emulator is something quite hard, and normally it takes years to reach a decent state. And as the machine's complexity increases, it is harder to emulate it (IMO).

[Demigod]

ZSNES I ran on my Pentium 100 (with sound ) and VGS I ran on my Celeron 366 at full speed. Last time I heard the PS2 was ten times faster or something, but we'll soon have 3+ Ghz processors. Plus the GPU can handle most of the graphical stuff so it'll be less load on the CPU.

GPU programming should be easier with programmable pixel shaders. One of the major problems of using a hardware GPU plug-in is the emulation of certain graphical effects (the wavy effect in CC, swirling effect in FF7, FF9, etc.) and there are also certain graphical incompatibilities. Running a game with a software plug-in is a lot higher compatibility-wise, since you can program those effects into the plug-in, but it's a lot slower and uglier since it's using only the CPU to render the graphics. With programmable pixel shaders you can program custom effects and accelerate it in the GPU, you no longer have to use fixed functions like DX 7 cards. In short, imagine the compatibility of a software plug-in, with the speed and quality of a hardware plug-in. The upcoming Cg language should make shader programming a lot easier (it's similar to the C programming language, but for graphics). I know next-generation console emulation will require a hefty amount of CPU power but pixel shaders can do a lot to compensate for the graphical differences.

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[fivefeet8]

Originally posted by Demigod79
ZSNES I ran on my Pentium 100 (with sound ) and VGS I ran on my Celeron 366 at full speed.

And the SNes ran at 3.5 mhz.. VGS ran like crap(frameskipped like hell) on my amd k6-2 533 mhz + voodoo 3 or 5.. Especially on 3d intensive games like GT2.. 533 mhz compared to 33 mhz.. Epsxe with a voodoo 5 5500 runs games like FF9 well, but still frameskipped like hell with the K6-2 533 mhz.. So the cpu is still gonna do a lot of work even if the gpu takes some of the pressure away..

So the Ps2 risc cpu runs at 300 mhz.. I wonder how emu authors are gonna deal with the 48gigabytes of video bandwidth of the ps2.. The Radeon 9700 only has 20gigabytes.. Anyways, with this scenario, you'd need a 6gigherz cpu to run ps2 games at full speed with sound.. Which suprisingly, we may have in a few more years..

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Last edited by fivefeet8; August 27th, 2002 at 20:15..

[Demigod]

The K6-2 has a really weak FPU and no L2 cache, which is the reason VGS runs so terribly (L2 cache is stated as a requirement for VGS, although it'll run without it). On my Celeron it didn't skip at all. In fact, I've heard people running VGS on a Pentium 2 200 with decent speed.

48 GB bandwidth is completely unnecessary (unless you're moving heavy textures around) and I doubt the PS2 can use that much anyways (640x480 doesn't require much bandwidth at all). It's more bandwidth than what's necessary, like AGP 4x or 8x on PC systems and the only reason it's so big is because of the small frame buffer size. I'm sure there will be a way to emulate it (after all, emulation is the art of mimicking ). It doesn't have to be there, you only need to make the computer think that it's there.

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[Gamer1]

Originally posted by fivefeet8


So the Ps2 risc cpu runs at 300 mhz.. I wonder how emu authors are gonna deal with the 48gigabytes of video bandwidth of the ps2.. The Radeon 9700 only has 20gigabytes.. Anyways, with this scenario, you'd need a 6gigherz cpu to run ps2 games at full speed with sound.. Which suprisingly, we may have in a few more years..

remember moores law... if 3 ghz will come out at the end of this this year... a 6 ghz will come out at the end of next year... unless everything goes to 64 bit... that's another story.

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[ammoQ]

Moores law says that power increases by 2 every 18 months, but that does not neccesarily mean that the clock frequency goes up by 2. Let's look at historical data: 1981, IBM introduced the first IBM PC, with 8 MHz. If computing power would only depend on clock speed, we would have factor 4 every 3 years (2 after 18 months, 2 18 months later = 4 every 36 months = 4 every 3 years). Therefore: 1984: 32 MHz 1987: 128 MHz 1990: 512 MHz 1993: 2 GHz 1996: 8 GHz 1999: 32 GHz 2002: 128 GHz - you see, processing power is not only gained by clock speed.

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[liquid]

simply put, the more complex the hardware, the more difficult it is to emulate. Furthermore, emulate that hardware accurately requires an incredible amount of processing power.

for example, take Sega Saturn emulation, the hardware is much more complex when compared to the PSX which is simple by comparison. Now look how much processing power is required to even run the system at 10-15 FPS...currently no system is capable of emulating SS hardware at 30 FPS, and it will probably stay that way for a while.
Also look at several of new up-comming games in the next release of MAME, many of these systems will require computers that run nearly 3Ghz to be playable...and these are hardly close to PS2's level of complexity.

so in the end don't hold out for a fully working ps2 emulator untill probably several years from now. Just buy the system and be happy

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[magoroku]

So that's why until now theres no good saturn emulator out there.
So what we need right now is in software development rather than the hardware part don't u think ?

Also look at several of new up-comming games in the next release of MAME, many of these systems will require computers that run nearly 3Ghz to be playable...and these are hardly close to PS2's level of complexity.

What do ya mean with this?
As far as i know MAME only need a low end hardware to run it like a pentium 266mmx it's enought i thing.

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[magoroku]

Hey guys.
I've just read a good news at Guru3d.com.
This is it :

What is cxbx ? It runs xbox software on a compatible pc and some hackers are extremely far with it. Since the xbox is essentially an x86 pc system inside of a box with specific hardware and a specific operating system, there is practically a 1 to 1 hardware requirement for accurate emulation.

It would be possible for cxbx to run software on a faster pc, but a pc slower than an actual xbox will run software slow. it is expected that you will need about a 750mhz processor and a capable video card in order to emulate most xbox software.

the process of converting an xbox executable (.xbe) to a windows "portable executable" (PE, [.exe]) has been a success. despite rumors floating around, .xbe -> .exe converstion is entirely possible, and is already being done. the problem is that a lot of work is necessary to fullfill the environmental expectations of an xbox executable. most importantly, kernel exports and certain hardware are expected, and must be emulated. the kernel emulation will be done by wrapping around existing win32 api. this is explained in the progress section.

head over to the download section to grab a copy of cxbx 0.3.0. this is the first version released that demonstrates the successfull hijacking of xbox kernel exports. the next step in emulating the xbox system is to provide accurate wrappers for all the xbox kernel exports. this can be done one of several different ways. currently, i am experimenting with both user mode and kernel mode techniques. each has its advantages, and i am unsure which method will be used in the end.

SO...don't u think we are nearing to the possibilities toward the real X-Box emulator ? Or this is just the start ?

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[Kane]

a) it will need more CPU overhead that guy is saying, as it will have to wrap kernel calls
b) XBox has specific hardware and encryption routines. This is gonna take a long time to contend with.

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[ammoQ]

I think emulating the XBox on a PC with a fast CPU and a GeForce4 might be easy enough to be done. Question is: what for?

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[Kane]

Coz some of use don't want to have to fork out for an XBox and an uber PC.

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>Site Live<
Pop over to my site for help with setting up PSX emulators.
Help for the Final Fantasies and other RPGs avalaible
Celes: (Desktop) Athlon 64 X2 4200+, 2Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, MSI K8N Platinum, GeForce 8800 GTS 320Mb, 500Gb RAID HDD, Vista Business
Erika: (MCPC) Athlon XP 2400+, 1Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, geForce 6800 256Mb, 80Gb Hdd, XP 2005 MCE
Kimiko: (Desktop 2) Athlon 64 3000+, 512Mb 400MHz DDR Ram, Asus K8V, geForce 6800 128Mb

[Syed Fawad]

Even if there is an XBOX emulator, there are only three titles worth playing on it. So why bother?

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[Kane]

The DoA ones and... what?

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>Site Live<
Pop over to my site for help with setting up PSX emulators.
Help for the Final Fantasies and other RPGs avalaible
Celes: (Desktop) Athlon 64 X2 4200+, 2Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, MSI K8N Platinum, GeForce 8800 GTS 320Mb, 500Gb RAID HDD, Vista Business
Erika: (MCPC) Athlon XP 2400+, 1Gb 400MHz DDR Ram, geForce 6800 256Mb, 80Gb Hdd, XP 2005 MCE
Kimiko: (Desktop 2) Athlon 64 3000+, 512Mb 400MHz DDR Ram, Asus K8V, geForce 6800 128Mb

[_E_]

well,....to emulate a complex console which run high graphical games such as PS2 , Game Cube and X box , will need at least 3 years to understand the working system of these consoles and to create a program which can run commercial games at the specs the concole has,...i mean, if the PS2 runs a game at a 800MHz speed, the emulator has to force the game to be run at this speed. this is easily said than done, espeacilly because of the release of the new 2.8GHz processors and new generation 3D cards. In other words , a 100% compability of the emulator with any hardware and its abilty to run complex console games is doubtful. it needs ALOT of work to be done. i mean look at the PS1. PS emulation started 5 years ago and STILL its not complete., so what will happen if we tried to emulate PS2 for example? and by the time we achieve complete emulation , there will be other advanced console released, and soon PS2 and X box will be history!!

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[Syed Fawad]

Shenmue, DOA and .... anything left?

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"Good friends mustn't always be together. It is the feeling of oneness when distant that proves a lasting friendship"

[neural-shock]

Halo perhaps? =p