64 bit computing and PSX 2 emulation

[K.I.L.E.R]

With the advancements in 64 bit computing being within the grasp of the average consumer it is feasible to write software that takes advantage of 64 bit computing.

How feasible is it to take advantage of 64 bit computing in the emulation scene?

The performance improvements of 64b over 32b are phenomenal as shown in the very end of the page:
http://www.linuxhardware.org/article...39&mode=thread

[bositman]

As far as i know it isnt very difficult to creat a recompiler using 64-bit instructions...it would be ready by now if goldfinger had an athlon64 processor :/

[Demigod]

Originally Posted by K.I.L.E.R

The performance improvements of 64b over 32b are phenomenal as shown in the very end of the page:
http://www.linuxhardware.org/article...39&mode=thread

Note that those benchmarks involving 64-bit are only for encoding applications, which is very different from games. It all depends on how much precision you need.

Originally Posted by bositman

As far as i know it isnt very difficult to creat a recompiler using 64-bit instructions...it would be ready by now if goldfinger had an athlon64 processor :/

I don't think performance is what's holding back PS2 emulation.

[refraction]

I don't think performance is what's holding back PS2 emulation.

haha sorry that sorta made me laugh granted most of the problem is down to the fact the code isnt complete yet, it quite heavily relys on the processor doing the operations quickly and efficiently. 64bit requires a lot of new extensions which prove quicker than 32bit processors, so as an outcome 64bit processors will have a bigger advantage over 32bit processors if this is implemented.

[bositman]

Where did i say that in my post?

[Kanodin]

Not you bosit, Demigod said it an AFAIK, according to shadow and everyone of the pcsx2 authors, the code is optimized so actually it is computer speeds that is holding ps2 emulation back the PS2 does far too many calculations a second than a 32-bit proc could possibly dream about handling.

[wright45]

"it is computer speeds that is holding ps2 emulation back the PS2 does far too many calculations a second than a 32-bit proc could possibly dream about handling."

If I'm not mistaken the PS2 has a 128-bit core processor. This makes PS2 emulation seem like a long wait to me. It would take a very fast 32-bit processor to emulate that I'm sure.

[refraction]

if you go on converting the processor bit rating so 128/32, that means its technically 4x faster.. (this is only in theory in my head btw), the processor is 294mhz. 294 x 4 = 1.176Ghz, so technically a 1.1ghz pc should be able to just about handle the core processor functions at full speed. but then you gotta think on a pc running the emu, the cpu is also dealing with the graphics synthesiser, spu and everything else that the ps2 has seperate hardware for and the bit that really kills it, on top of having to convert from ps2 code to x86 code.

so overall you need about a 5ghz (actual clock) 32bit pc to run it at a decent speed.

but processor optimisations and 64bit instructions should bring that figure down to more 3ghz by the time pcsx2 is finished.

[Raziel]

Another think to take into account is the huge amount of data to transfer to the gfx card, technically, you'll need a PCI Express system with a PCI Express card to be able to emulate the PS2 full speed in games like FFX or MGS2 (and the current gen of PCI Express cards can't, simplay cause they weren't designed for PCI Express, they're merely compatible)

[jareg]

Originally Posted by Raziel

Another think to take into account is the huge amount of data to transfer to the gfx card, technically, you'll need a PCI Express system with a PCI Express card to be able to emulate the PS2 full speed in games like FFX or MGS2 (and the current gen of PCI Express cards can't, simplay cause they weren't designed for PCI Express, they're merely compatible)

So in other words we can forget Ps2 emulation for now
Why are you all so negative
Everything is possible

[Demigod]

Originally Posted by refraction

if you go on converting the processor bit rating so 128/32, that means its technically 4x faster.. (this is only in theory in my head btw), the processor is 294mhz. 294 x 4 = 1.176Ghz, so technically a 1.1ghz pc should be able to just about handle the core processor functions at full speed. but then you gotta think on a pc running the emu, the cpu is also dealing with the graphics synthesiser, spu and everything else that the ps2 has seperate hardware for and the bit that really kills it, on top of having to convert from ps2 code to x86 code.

so overall you need about a 5ghz (actual clock) 32bit pc to run it at a decent speed.

but processor optimisations and 64bit instructions should bring that figure down to more 3ghz by the time pcsx2 is finished.

It's a common misconception that a 128-bit CPU can do four times the work of a 32-bit CPU. That would only be the case if you are using nothing but 128-bit integers and even then the performance difference wouldn't be exactly 4x. The "bit" of a CPU is the "word size" of the processor (not the width). In other words, it is the native integer size the processor supports. Thus a 128-bit processor can process a 128-bit integer in a single pass, while 64-bit and 32-bit CPUs will have to have multiple passes at it. Performance improvements will show if a lot of 128-bit integers are used, but if it uses mostly 32-bit and 64-bit integers (no point in using higher precision if you don't require it) then there will be virtually no performance gains with a 128-bit processor (aside from architectural differences). It all depends on how much precision is required and used, not how much data is processed.

CPU architecture differences is also a factor. Nothing says the PS2's CPU performs the same per clock as a Pentium 4 or Athlon XP/64. Comparing different CPUs on clock speed alone almost always produces inaccurate results (P4 vs Athlon). The emulation layer will also be a factor, as the PS2 CPU will need to be emulated so 32-bit and 64-bit CPUs can run it. At this point it would be difficult to say how much processing power is required or what kind of CPU will be best for emulation.

At any rate, 64-bit processing should help in performance (afterall it handles 32-bit code the same so there's everything to gain) but it's not going to suddenly make the emulator work as bositman suggested.

[CKemu]

Needless to say, a 64bit System will make significant preformance differences if PCSX2 support x86-64, especially in the cases of VUrec and CPUrec. Now all we need to do is send the team AMD64's

[jareg]

Originally Posted by CKemu

Needless to say, a 64bit System will make significant preformance differences if PCSX2 support x86-64, especially in the cases of VUrec and CPUrec. Now all we need to do is send the team AMD64's

And that will cost few pennis

[CKemu]

Frankly, AMD64's ain't that expensive, unless your still relying on mommy and daddy to give you pocket money. As a joint effort from people on these boards, I'm pretty sure we could raise cash for them all to get 1, or atleast GoldFinger (recompiler dude ;p ).

Admittedly all the 32Bit users would end up crying, as it wouldn't work on their rig anymore, and frankly, in the end 32bit will end up obsolete, so backward compatibility would eventually end up pointless, but thats anouther debate entirely.

[Demigod]

Originally Posted by CKemu

Admittedly all the 32Bit users would end up crying, as it wouldn't work on their rig anymore, and frankly, in the end 32bit will end up obsolete, so backward compatibility would eventually end up pointless, but thats anouther debate entirely.

Heh, x86 was obsolete decades ago . It's for compatibility reasons that Intel's kept it alive, although they don't seem to want to do it anymore. AMD wants to keep it going though, and I can't blame them, what with the huge x86 software base and all (it's all about compatibility folks ).

[Borluse]

JUST SO COOOOOOOOL.
i want a 64-bit computer. but by now , it has been a dream. how many years can i reach it? i live in China , a 19 old guy. it was so expensive for me to buy a 64-bit hdd or a ps2 hdd. each is too expensive.
Dear , my ffx,ffx-2. it wast so born . why sony and amd and many other hardware companies set such a high price in China?????

[ChaosCode]

Originally Posted by Borluse

JUST SO COOOOOOOOL.
i want a 64-bit computer. but by now , it has been a dream. how many years can i reach it? i live in China , a 19 old guy. it was so expensive for me to buy a 64-bit hdd or a ps2 hdd. each is too expensive.
Dear , my ffx,ffx-2. it wast so born . why sony and amd and many other hardware companies set such a high price in China?????

ahhh I don't think a hhd is 16/32/64 bit until you format it and ps2 hhd arnt that much. Try ebay, they are like 100$ The reason its so high in your part of the world is becuase you guys pay huge amout of money for stuff and dont company about it to the right people. If you stop buying stuff at high prices then the prices will drop. Thats the way it works.

[zenogais]

Originally Posted by CKemu

Frankly, AMD64's ain't that expensive, unless your still relying on mommy and daddy to give you pocket money. As a joint effort from people on these boards, I'm pretty sure we could raise cash for them all to get 1, or atleast GoldFinger (recompiler dude ;p ).

Admittedly all the 32Bit users would end up crying, as it wouldn't work on their rig anymore, and frankly, in the end 32bit will end up obsolete, so backward compatibility would eventually end up pointless, but thats anouther debate entirely.

Well, the recompiler does have the ability to determine whether or not the processor is a 64-bit Intel/AMD processor. So it can be backwards compatible with 32-bit CPUs, but still have the ability to optimize for 64-bit processors.

[Borluse]

Originally Posted by ChaosCode

ahhh I don't think a hhd is 16/32/64 bit until you format it and ps2 hhd arnt that much. Try ebay, they are like 100$ The reason its so high in your part of the world is becuase you guys pay huge amout of money for stuff and dont company about it to the right people. If you stop buying stuff at high prices then the prices will drop. Thats the way it works.

sorry for my fault , i said 64-bit pc, not a harddisk.

don't yon know that in China, education always comes first? if you want to play ps2 ,
besides, you said ps2 was about 100$, it means 800 RMB in China. but in fact
it was about 1800 RMB in China, it means over 200$. What a high price!!!!!! i even can't find the place that ps2 is sold.
the reason is almost everyone in China say " education comes first!!" ,i think.
ps: i live in Jinan ,China. may be Jinan is too poor.

[Vanit]

Not that its entirely relevant, but I heard that SONY may be possibly start distributing computers with the PS3 cpu since Pentium is running out of improvements to make. If I'm not mistaken this would really help PS2 and possibly PS3 emulation.