Xbox 360 emulation possibililty

[justinxtreme]

OK I know some people might say i'm crazy for thinking about this but here let me explain to you why I think there is an eminent possibility that emulating an Xbox 360 on a PC is possible:

1. Of course, obviously you all should know that the Xbox 360 is based on the x86 PC architecture unlike the PlayStation 3 or PlayStation 2.

2.Xbox 360's GPU the ATI Xenos is a modified version of the ATI Radeon X1800 or a so-called cutdown version of the ATI Radeon X1900 GPU and is based on the PC-GPU architecture.It's like the HD 4830 and the HD 4850. In this case emulation of the X1800 would be easy if you have at least a 7600GT or X1600. Using those video cards could result in stable framerates.

3.The Xbox 360's processor is an IBM Tri-Core processor clocked at 3.2GHz Total meaning all three cores combined together equals 3.2GHz. You might, oh that's pretty high that's higher than my dual core processor that 2GHz or somethnig like that. Actually a dual core 2GHz processor is a bit more superior than Xbox 360's Tri-Core CPU since a 2GHz dual core processor (which is what I would suggest what most people have or higher) would equal to 4GHz when two cores are combined. I can still be wrong at this part if I am correct me.

4.The Optical drive it uses is a Dual layer DVD Writer SATA (No worries if you use an IDE drive) which I would be guessing you would have it in your PC.It's more cheaper than those Blu-Ray drives that cost around $100 to $200 (Yeah right I aint buyin that I could buy a 750Gb or a 1TB external hard drive with that)

5.The Xbox 360's 512MB of GDDR3 RAM can easily be outmatched by PC2-6400 DDR2 RAM.

6.Well wired LAN is 100Mbps and some peple have 1Gbps like me. Wireless LAN are becoming common these days too.

Ok that's all I have. Oh and if anyone decides to make an emulator for the Xbox 360 just remember to configure a BIOS that will allow other people to install drivers for their components like the Ethernet or Wireless LAN adapter so it will work with the Xbox 360 emulation software.

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Last edited by justinxtreme; January 10th, 2009 at 03:16.

[Dax]

Dunno what you're asking, but if you're asking, "What are the chances that a current-gen system[aside from Wii] will be emulated full speed on my current-gen hardware?" then forget about it.

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[PsyMan]

Originally Posted by justinxtreme

OK I know some people might say i'm crazy for thinking about this but here let me explain to you why I think there is an eminent possibility that emulating an Xbox 360 on a PC is possible:

1. Of course, obviously you all should know that the Xbox 360 is based on the x86 PC architecture unlike the PlayStation 3 or PlayStation 2.

2.Xbox 360's GPU the ATI Xenos is a modified version of the ATI Radeon X1800 or a so-called cutdown version of the ATI Radeon X1900 GPU and is based on the PC-GPU architecture.It's like the HD 4830 and the HD 4850. In this case emulation of the X1800 would be easy if you have at least a 7600GT or X1600. Using those video cards could result in stable framerates.

3.The Xbox 360's processor is an IBM Tri-Core processor clocked at 3.2GHz Total meaning all three cores combined together equals 3.2GHz. You might, oh that's pretty high that's higher than my dual core processor that 2GHz or somethnig like that. Actually a dual core 2GHz processor is a bit more superior than Xbox 360's Tri-Core CPU since a 2GHz dual core processor (which is what I would suggest what most people have or higher) would equal to 4GHz when two cores are combined. I can still be wrong at this part if I am correct me.

4.The Optical drive it uses is a Dual layer DVD Writer SATA (No worries if you use an IDE drive) which I would be guessing you would have it in your PC.It's more cheaper than those Blu-Ray drives that cost around $100 to $200 (Yeah right I aint buyin that I could buy a 750Gb or a 1TB external hard drive with that)

5.The Xbox 360's 512MB of GDDR3 RAM can easily be outmatched by PC2-6400 DDR2 RAM.

6.Well wired LAN is 100Mbps and some peple have 1Gbps like me. Wireless LAN are becoming common these days too.

Ok that's all I have. Oh and if anyone decides to make an emulator for the Xbox 360 just remember to configure a BIOS that will allow other people to install drivers for their components like the Ethernet or Wireless LAN adapter so it will work with the Xbox 360 emulation software.

You are wrong. No, let me rephrase that... YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Due to hardware limitations alone (no, I won't mention the rest problems since that alone is far enough) running a 360 emulator on a PC at acceptable framerates is not doable at least for the next few years.

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[n0estoy]

lol, just logged in to check out the OP's post count. welcome to emulation justinxtreme
you didn't stop by the xbox emulation section did you?

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[masta.g.86]

Originally Posted by justinxtreme

OK I know some people might say i'm crazy for thinking about this but here let me explain to you why I think there is an eminent possibility that emulating an Xbox 360 on a PC is possible:

1. Of course, obviously you all should know that the Xbox 360 is based on the x86 PC architecture unlike the PlayStation 3 or PlayStation 2.

2.Xbox 360's GPU the ATI Xenos is a modified version of the ATI Radeon X1800 or a so-called cutdown version of the ATI Radeon X1900 GPU and is based on the PC-GPU architecture.It's like the HD 4830 and the HD 4850. In this case emulation of the X1800 would be easy if you have at least a 7600GT or X1600. Using those video cards could result in stable framerates.

3.The Xbox 360's processor is an IBM Tri-Core processor clocked at 3.2GHz Total meaning all three cores combined together equals 3.2GHz. You might, oh that's pretty high that's higher than my dual core processor that 2GHz or somethnig like that. Actually a dual core 2GHz processor is a bit more superior than Xbox 360's Tri-Core CPU since a 2GHz dual core processor (which is what I would suggest what most people have or higher) would equal to 4GHz when two cores are combined. I can still be wrong at this part if I am correct me.

4.The Optical drive it uses is a Dual layer DVD Writer SATA (No worries if you use an IDE drive) which I would be guessing you would have it in your PC.It's more cheaper than those Blu-Ray drives that cost around $100 to $200 (Yeah right I aint buyin that I could buy a 750Gb or a 1TB external hard drive with that)

5.The Xbox 360's 512MB of GDDR3 RAM can easily be outmatched by PC2-6400 DDR2 RAM.

6.Well wired LAN is 100Mbps and some peple have 1Gbps like me. Wireless LAN are becoming common these days too.

Ok that's all I have. Oh and if anyone decides to make an emulator for the Xbox 360 just remember to configure a BIOS that will allow other people to install drivers for their components like the Ethernet or Wireless LAN adapter so it will work with the Xbox 360 emulation software.

1.)

The Xbox 360 chip uses three of the fastest-available (3.2 GHz) PowerPC cores, in a cache-coherent symmetrical multiprocessing architecture with a 1MB L2 cache and a frontside/physical bus speed of 5.4 GHz. In addition to supporting the full 64-bit PowerPC ISA (instruction set architecture), each core is specialized with "VMX128" extensions, similar to VMX instructions in G4 and G5 CPUs, Brown writes.

Yeah... So anyway, last I checked, the x86 CPU architecture does not handle PowerPC code.

3.) You're wrong. CPU speeds are never added together. A 2GHz C2D is 2GHz and that's it.

Emulating a 3.2GHz triple-core PowerPC based CPU at anything anywhere near full speed is currently impossible. Sorry, but welcome to reality. :/

Edit: Someone put a link to this thread in the Bin.

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[AHE]

My dual core amd 2ghz cant even run dolphin at full speed, your dreaming about 360 emulation,even the xbox 1 isnt emulated yet to play commercial games

[GiGaHeRz]

Yeah its jsut so simple: takes over 3 x86 ghz to emulate <500mhz ppc. and xbox360 has 3 * 3.2ghz, so that means it would need 3 cores running at >20ghz, just to emulate the cpu. (Note: don't take this number as a realistic precise thing :P)

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[BigIg]

Originally Posted by justinxtreme

3.The Xbox 360's processor is an IBM Tri-Core processor clocked at 3.2GHz Total meaning all three cores combined together equals 3.2GHz. You might, oh that's pretty high that's higher than my dual core processor that 2GHz or somethnig like that. Actually a dual core 2GHz processor is a bit more superior than Xbox 360's Tri-Core CPU since a 2GHz dual core processor (which is what I would suggest what most people have or higher) would equal to 4GHz when two cores are combined. I can still be wrong at this part if I am correct me.

Well based on your thinking of dual core CPUs, the Tri-Core 360 CPU would be 9.6GHz combined. But that's not quite how it works. Not to mention it's a completely different instruction set.

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[justinxtreme]

Well thx for telling me all this

I thought it was built on the x86 architecture
So if the Xbxo 360's CPU is 9.6Ghz total (somewhere around that) than its core clock is physically faster than the PS3 if the PS3 was not based on the cell architecture CPU. In the specification its core clock is 3.2GHz total not 3.2 x 8 or 3.2 x2 just 3.2GHz when all added together (talking about the PS3)

THX though I was just wondering since PC are way more advanced than consoles and why PC's have a hard time emulating them. I know that PS2 emulation is not that good but thats not the same problem as emulating an Xbox 360 or PS3 since the PS2 has alot of processors (Slow though) so its harder to synchronize it from the processor to the bus rather than emulating 3 to 8 cores (depending on what kind of processor you have)

THX

IBM has also been working with AMD to create a processor that handles all instructions (SSE,SSE2,SSE3,SSSE3,SSE4,SSE4.1,SSE5,PowerPC,etc. ).

Im also thinking about PS3 emulation.

Im also thinking about PS3 emulation.

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Last edited by justinxtreme; January 10th, 2009 at 21:19. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[Squall-Leonhart]

don't you bloody read. O.o

THE CLOCKS ARE NOT COMBINED

it is 3 seperate processors at 3.2Ghz, no matter how you work it, it does n't combine into a magic 9.6.

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[Hard core Rikki]

The overhead of emulation is not just significant (more like huge).
The clock/core compareason could hold if xbox360 and ps3 code could run natively on PC architectures, but you can see that even PC ports have severe issue at that, so nevermind emulation succeeding where porting fails (memory bandwidth is an issue too, and there's nothing to do about needing superpowerful hardware, in the event that emulation even works).

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[zidine00]

Originally Posted by justinxtreme

Im also thinking about PS3 emulation.

Im also thinking about PS3 emulation.

facepalm, seriously mabie if you wait about 5-10 years the hardware might be able to run at a decent speed, but honestly have you seen the specs needed to run pcsx2 at full speed let alone a how much it would need for a ps3 emulator, the same goes for xbox 360 emulation mabie it would be a better idea to wait for a xbox to be emulated first before you even decide to suggest such a project.

[cooliscool]

just LOL

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[masta.g.86]

Originally Posted by justinxtreme

Im also thinking about PS3 emulation.

Yeah, now there you go. Cross out the Xbox 360 as an emulation possibility and focus on the PS3. After all, it's much easier to emulate.

In fact, some of the members here (including myself) are working on a PS3 emulator right now! I expect to release a private alpha release in a couple weeks.

This thread is truely epic!

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[blueshogun96]

Aren't you all forgetting the most important thing?? Even if we had the hardware to do so, we STILL don't have the documentation!

I'm not trying to say I know everything about 360, but this is my 2 cents. It's easy to just say "Wait 5-10 years" and flame the OP calling him a n00b when he obviously doesn't know better (hence why he's asking), but it's rare to find anyone who can actually give a person some real insight as to why his request is astronomical atm.

The .XEX file format's security is quite sophisticated and only one person I know has been able to fully reverse engineer it (but never document it). This is because since unsigned .XEX files aren't usable on the 360 making homebrew with that file format impossible. If it was documented enough, it would be possible to write a static binary translator (PPC -> x86-64) similar to what Cxbx does and use HLE or LLE for the hardware and BIOS. But even that isn't guaranteed to work well because since [as already stated] xbox 360 uses a triple core PPC architecture so thread syncing will be an issue (unless you're emulating the most basic of homebrew in raw binary format) because the dashboard still executes while your game does (Xbox1 was different, it only runs one process at a time). Also, as many who argue over 360 emulations possibilities fail to mention, the fact that each PPC core in the 360 has one dedicated Vectorial Unit (VU) and if you pay close attention to PS2 emulation, this is what makes emulating PS2 such a pain in the arse... and PS2 only has two. Think about that. Sure we could write a separate recompiler for that, but that's still one hell of a headache to do properly, let alone efficiently. The memory requirements for such an emulator (even on the highest levels) is going to be VERY high. While it only has 512 MB of unified memory, it's tempting to assume you can just allocate a 512MB DWORD pointer and be done with it, but that's not the case because there's also a very large virtual memory region to emulate (32GB) and that can only be done on a 64-bit machine or higher. I don't know how the MMU works or how the memory alignment is, but expect all hell to break loose trying to emulate it. I know very little about how ATI GPUs work (I work with NVIDIA stuff much more), but even though the Xenos is partly documented, I don't think it's enough to emulate many of the complex features used by games. I can't say much for sound, because I know little about it. Other bits and pieces of hardware have yet to be documented.

So in closing, there aren't enough programmers as well as enough well established Emu authors out there willing to think outside the [X]box and use new methods of emulation rather than traditional methods such as dynarec. Writing a 360 emulator sounds like a fun but head splitting task, but who's going to do it? If my theories are at all somewhat accurate, 360 can be emulated right now, just not advanced enough to run any commercial games like Halo 3.

EDIT: Now THIS is scary!

Xbox 360 not only supports high-level shading language (HLSL) model 3.0 for vertex and pixel shaders but also includes advanced shader features well beyond model 3.0. For instance, shaders use 32-bit IEEE floating-point math throughout. Vertex shaders can fetch from textures, and pixel shaders can fetch from vertex streams. Xenon shaders also have the unique ability to directly access main memory, allowing techniques that have never before been possible.

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Last edited by blueshogun96; January 11th, 2009 at 21:51.

[Squall-Leonhart]

well... yeah the Xbox practically helped in the development of Dx10.

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[shafeen]

Originally Posted by justinxtreme

OK I know some people might say i'm crazy for thinking about this but here let me explain to you why I think there is an eminent possibility that emulating an Xbox 360 on a PC is possible:

1. Of course, obviously you all should know that the Xbox 360 is based on the x86 PC architecture unlike the PlayStation 3 or PlayStation 2.

2.Xbox 360's GPU the ATI Xenos is a modified version of the ATI Radeon X1800 or a so-called cutdown version of the ATI Radeon X1900 GPU and is based on the PC-GPU architecture.It's like the HD 4830 and the HD 4850. In this case emulation of the X1800 would be easy if you have at least a 7600GT or X1600. Using those video cards could result in stable framerates.

3.The Xbox 360's processor is an IBM Tri-Core processor clocked at 3.2GHz Total meaning all three cores combined together equals 3.2GHz. You might, oh that's pretty high that's higher than my dual core processor that 2GHz or somethnig like that. Actually a dual core 2GHz processor is a bit more superior than Xbox 360's Tri-Core CPU since a 2GHz dual core processor (which is what I would suggest what most people have or higher) would equal to 4GHz when two cores are combined. I can still be wrong at this part if I am correct me.

4.The Optical drive it uses is a Dual layer DVD Writer SATA (No worries if you use an IDE drive) which I would be guessing you would have it in your PC.It's more cheaper than those Blu-Ray drives that cost around $100 to $200 (Yeah right I aint buyin that I could buy a 750Gb or a 1TB external hard drive with that)

5.The Xbox 360's 512MB of GDDR3 RAM can easily be outmatched by PC2-6400 DDR2 RAM.

6.Well wired LAN is 100Mbps and some peple have 1Gbps like me. Wireless LAN are becoming common these days too.

Ok that's all I have. Oh and if anyone decides to make an emulator for the Xbox 360 just remember to configure a BIOS that will allow other people to install drivers for their components like the Ethernet or Wireless LAN adapter so it will work with the Xbox 360 emulation software.

Answer to all but most of ur questions
1.in current hardware we wouldnt have any possiblity of emulating xbox 360...<why you may ask>
the ps2 has a processor which works at less than 1 ghz speed<correct me if i am wrong>but it still takes dual core working at 100%throttle to emulate it.<again why you may ask> ps2 is created for gaming but pc isnt....the oc gotta translate the instructions set completely to emulate a ps2.the same would apply to most of the answers


btw welcome to the forums and enjoy ur stay

i guess ur not like other noobs<atleast u had some relavant back up of what are you saying......other noobs are like:"woot,ps3 can boot linux can i has it on my linux lol">

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[blueshogun96]

I have the feeling that no one listens to a damn thing I have to say...

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[Dax]

I read it, and I thought it was a good read. >.>;

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[masta.g.86]

Originally Posted by blueshogun96

I have the feeling that no one listens to a damn thing I have to say...

I think most people are just stupified by your in-depth response.

I don't believe Xbox360 emulation is a complete impossibility, but the level of complexity that must be overcome is just too great. I think both the PS3 and 360 need a different approach to emulate as opposed to today's more common programming methods.

I think that even with proper documentation, even if tech demos were up and running, they likely would be horrendously slow even after many optimizations. Current-gen consoles (except Wii) are way too complex to even really worry about emulating as I see it.

Releasing such an emulator would be akin to what Rockstar pulled with GTA4...

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