AMD(ATI) vs Nvidia 2007

[fivefeet8]

Originally Posted by guest.r

It wasn't determined if this was a permanent flaw or a temp. driver issue.
Adaptive AA is the "nice and fast meant to be used compromise" for games that aren't too demanding for the gpu chips.

So something that had issues in previous drivers and now fixed in a new driver can't be determined to be a "driver issue"?

Adaptive/Transparency AA is used to AA alpha textures since standard MSAA modes do nothing for Alpha textures and full Super sampling modes are too performance hungry. Their performance hit is not as compromising as you seem to think.

[guest.r]

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

So something that had issues in previous drivers and now fixed in a new driver can't be determined to be a "driver issue"?

It could have been a HW issue.

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

Adaptive/Transparency AA is used to AA alpha textures since standard MSAA modes do nothing for Alpha textures and full Super sampling modes are too performance hungry. Their performance hit is not as compromising as you seem to think.

The "nice and fast meant to be used compromise" in other words.

[skoreanime]

If it was a hardware issue, they would've had a recall, no? So it was obviously software/driver related...

[ChrisRay]

Err that depends. If they purposely chose to leave AA resolve out of hardware and leave it to the shader. Then no driver in the world is going to change that. Shader AA resolve isnt neccasarily a bad thing. It's supported by the G80 too. But at times it can be demanding.

[guest.r]

Originally Posted by skoreanime

If it was a hardware issue, they would've had a recall, no? So it was obviously software/driver related...

So it's obviously all a driver issue around this card and the former pessimism a serious missdjugment.

[fivefeet8]

Originally Posted by guest.r

It could have been a HW issue.

Its a driver issue because it was fixed with a simple driver update, not a hardware update. Now if you're saying it's a hardware issue with a driver workaround, then maybe.

Originally Posted by ChrisRay

Err that depends. If they purposely chose to leave AA resolve out of hardware and leave it to the shader. Then no driver in the world is going to change that. Shader AA resolve isnt neccasarily a bad thing. It's supported by the G80 too. But at times it can be demanding.

Chris, we're talking about the R600's poor performance with Adaptive AA modes in previous drivers that seems to have been fixed in the Cat 7.8. I've heard that it might be because Adaptive AA(full compression) can be resolved in the ROPs, but was previously not. The new driver supposedly moves Adaptive AA resolve back onto the ROP's which increased performance dramatically.

[guest.r]

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

Its a driver issue because it was fixed with a simple driver update, not a hardware update. Now if you're saying it's a hardware issue with a driver workaround, then maybe.

Since the 2900XT is supposed to have a new design some solutions might have had lesser priority without the possibility for a nice micro-code fix.
And if the majority of the buyers also demand adaptive AA and they can only get it to se dias then one can say this card was bad planned. Otherwise he can't.

[tuanming]

If you guys can convince this guy that the Geforce 8800 is better than the R600 then you could also convince me too!




and this vid too YouTube - MSI RX 2900 XT Graphics Card

[fivefeet8]

Originally Posted by tuanming

If you guys can convince this guy that the Geforce 8800 is better than the R600 then you could also convince me too!

Welcome back to the discussion tuanming. Tell me, what happened to all those BOLD claims of utter r600 superiority? Trying to convince you is like trying to convince a brick wall to move.

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Originally Posted by guest.r

Since the 2900XT is supposed to have a new design some solutions might have had lesser priority without the possibility for a nice micro-code fix.
And if the majority of the buyers also demand adaptive AA and they can only get it to se dias then one can say this card was bad planned. Otherwise he can't.

AA performance hasn't changed much. It still plummets in performance much more than it's Nvidia counterparts.

[ChankastRules]

If you guys can convince this guy that the Geforce 8800 is better than the R600 then you could also convince me too!

Ok, hello MR, you are talking about the games and nice software included with the card... so you can avoid to talk about the fact that it is beaten in almost every game by the 8800 GTX.

[guest.r]

Some prices form one of the online shops:

-GF8800GTS 320MB GDDR3: 320EUR
-HD2900XT 512MB GDDR3: 390EUR
-GF8800GTS 640MB GDDR3: 420EUR
-HD2900XT 1024MB GDDR4: 500EUR
-GF8800GTX 768MB GDDR3: 530EUR

Guess the 8800GTX is to be compared with the 2900XT 1024MB. I'll look for some decent up to date gf. vs. radeon cat. 7.8 benchs when there are some to get an updated overview of the situation which has IMO changed from 5/2007.

[skoreanime]

On a side note, the XTX version of the x2900 actually does exist. However, it was only produced for some developers here and there in their FireGL model. I don't know the exact details, but that's what I heard. I don't think there are any benches around.

[fivefeet8]

Originally Posted by guest.r

Some prices form one of the online shops:

-GF8800GTS 320MB GDDR3: 320EUR
-HD2900XT 512MB GDDR3: 390EUR
-GF8800GTS 640MB GDDR3: 420EUR
-HD2900XT 1024MB GDDR4: 500EUR
-GF8800GTX 768MB GDDR3: 530EUR

US prices are bit different. The 8800gts 640 meg is usually cheaper than the x2900xt 512 meg here.

8800gts 320MB: $250 US
8800gts 640MB: $340 US
x2900xt 512MB: $390 US
8800gtx 768MB: $485 US
x2900xt 1024MB: $522 US
8800 Ultra 768MB: $600 US

Originally Posted by guest.r

Guess the 8800GTX is to be compared with the 2900XT 1024MB. I'll look for some decent up to date gf. vs. radeon cat. 7.8 benchs when there are some to get an updated overview of the situation which has IMO changed from 5/2007.

There are a few reviews of the 2900xt 1024MB around. Not with the 7.8 drivers though. But close enough with the 7.7.

TrustedReviews - Sapphire HD 2900 XT 1024MB DDR4

[ChrisRay]

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

Chris, we're talking about the R600's poor performance with Adaptive AA modes in previous drivers that seems to have been fixed in the Cat 7.8. I've heard that it might be because Adaptive AA(full compression) can be resolved in the ROPs, but was previously not. The new driver supposedly moves Adaptive AA resolve back onto the ROP's which increased performance dramatically.

I honestly am not too sure about that. Shader AA resolve is not that demanding... The R600's AA problems stem from something else. Shader AA resolve is just not that match intensive unless its edge detection.

[fivefeet8]

Originally Posted by ChrisRay

The R600's AA problems stem from something else. Shader AA resolve is just not that match intensive unless its edge detection.

I've heard of that as well. Someone at beyond3d did mention something about it's AA problems being something else as well. Shader AA resolve seems to perform less than dedicated ROP AA resolve on Nvidia's G8x cards though.

[guest.r]

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

There are a few reviews of the 2900xt 1024MB around. Not with the 7.8 drivers though. But close enough with the 7.7.

TrustedReviews - Sapphire HD 2900 XT 1024MB DDR4

Dunno if theese review dudes are acctualy capable of presenting the card in different lights. They arent artisans.

[ChrisRay]

Originally Posted by fivefeet8

I've heard of that as well. Someone at beyond3d did mention something about it's AA problems being something else as well. Shader AA resolve seems to perform less than dedicated ROP AA resolve on Nvidia's G8x cards though.

Yes which is expected. But the thing that makes shader resolve nice is that it can perform custom resolve filters which can be great with high bloom/HDR filters. Where standard multisample resolve filters do not work.

But anyway, I dont think R600's AA performance has anything to do with its resolve being done on shader core rather than the ROPS. Basic 4xAA resolve for instance is basically just a "MADD" in operation so it shouldnt be that much slower than hardware resolve. When G80 performs shader based resolve ((Mandated by DX 10 to be available)) it doesnt lose 50% of its performance.

Chris

[fivefeet8]

Originally Posted by guest.r

Dunno if theese review dudes are acctualy capable of presenting the card in different lights. They arent artisans.

There are other's if you look around. They show pretty much the same thing. Besides, the x2900xt 1 gig seems to have the same stock clore clock as the 512 meg version in that review. Other reviews have it factory overclocked or promised factory overclock to 850 mhz. Even at that, it only get's close to a 8800gtx.