Possible New Video Card

[fivefeet8]

Originally posted by average_guy
so is gf4ti4600 better than r9700 pro?

Reading through the informative posts and to my own knowledge, NO!!

Nvblur sounds interesting though.. Gotta wait and see the Nv30 before I get a new graphics card..

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Blade_Jae, I am reading this and have read it. After reading all replies and some careful consideration, I think I will stick w/the TI 4600 for now and wait for the NV30. Thanks for all the replies and reccomendations.
Thanks a lot, Shadow Lady, for the link to the review of the NV30. I read it throughly and there was even a link to a comparison of the NV30 versus the 9700 pro and the TI 4600. The NV30 met or beat the 9700 pro in all but a few areas and both cards topped the 4600. So from the review and the comparison, I think it is wise to stay w/the TI 4600 for now and then definately move up to the NV30 when it comes out. Thanks again for the very informative link, Shadow Lady.
Ninja, the 9700 pro is, as you say, a quality card and very very tempting. But the NV30 looks to be just as sweet and just as tempting. Also, as has been stated, I haven't even begun to max out the TI 4600 yet, so why spend more money when I don't need to. Thanks for your views.
sincerely,
sx/amiga

[Esturk]

That's good to hear sxamiga.. Why would you give up your top of the line GeForce 4 for something that is somewhat similar?

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[average_guy]

Originally posted by fivefeet8


Reading through the informative posts and to my own knowledge, NO!!

Nvblur sounds interesting though.. Gotta wait and see the Nv30 before I get a new graphics card..

I have read and understood radeon 9700 pro beats gf4ti4600 in term of power, but what about compatibilitie? I have heard million times that ATI got bad drivers and therefore bad compatibilities.

[Demigod]

BTW, the memory width in the comparison charts for the Radeon 9700 is wrong. The R300 has 256-bit memory, not 128-bit. How else would it achieve it's 20 GB/s bandwidth? And the specs on the NV30 are pure speculation, Nvidia has disclosed no information on the core and memory clocks (they haven't even given it a name yet). The only thing we know for certain are DX9 features and the number of pipelines, which are equal to the Radeon 9700.

Originally posted by Esturk17
That's good to hear sxamiga.. Why would you give up your top of the line GeForce 4 for something that is somewhat similar?

Yeah, similar as the GF4 is to the NV30 or the GF2 is to the GF3

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Last edited by Demigod; October 20th, 2002 at 16:50..

[Esturk]

Originally posted by Demigod79
Yeah, similar as the GF4 is to the NV30 or the GF2 is to the GF3

What I meant was why, already owning a GeForce 4 TI4600... Buy a Radeon 9700? I didn't mean NV30.

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[Demigod]

Originally posted by Esturk17

What I meant was why, already owning a GeForce 4 TI4600... Buy a Radeon 9700? I didn't mean NV30.

Umm, because it's a lot faster? Anyways, I was just saying, the Radeon 9700 is similar to the GF4 as the NV30 is. NV30 is just a faster Radeon 9700 afterall. Ah whatever, if he's happy with his current card then he should just keep it and skip the Radeon 9700 and the NV30 altogether. Still, $299 seems like a good price though.

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[Particleman]

Having upgraded from a GF4 Ti4600 to a 9700. I would have to say it depends on the games you play. If you play a lot of new games, like UT2003, and stuff then the 9700 is much better, especially when FSAA and anisotropic filtering is enabled. But if you mainly play old games and emulators, you probably aren't going to see much of a difference. I'm happy with the upgrade, but it all depends on the games you want to play and how you want to play them, the two cards only really begin to separate themselves significantly when all the visual details are turned up, as well as FSAA and aniso are turned on. The 9700 will let you play pretty much everything with FSAA and aniso cranked all the way up, while with the GF4 I had to find compromises between performance and IQ like using quincunx (which in some games quincunx blurs stuff up pretty bad), and not turning up aniso all the way. I also get the added satisfaction of knowing that I will be able to play DX9 games the way they are meant to, when it finally shows up.

As for compatibilities, here's what I found on my 2 systems, on my P4 system it has worked flawlessly ever since the 9700's release. On my Athlon system I experienced a few problems with the initial driver release, but the newest driver release has fixed everything up and now it runs perfectly on both systems. I actually have 2 9700's right now since my 4600 seems to have bit the dust and started showing weird anomalies all over the screen, and since I still wanted a good video card in my other system while the GF4 was being RMA'ed. I got another 9700, I'm probably going to sell the new GF4 they send me. Anyways, right now the 9700 can play any game that I have without any problems on both systems.

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Last edited by Particleman; October 20th, 2002 at 10:58..

[Particleman]

Also I wouldn't count on the specs at NV30.com, I have seen various specs most of them conflicting around the net. At this point everything is pretty much a rumor. Some sites say it will have a 128 bit memory bus while some say 256 bit (the newest rumors say 128 bit DDR-II, but again they're all rumors). We'll have to wait till the launch to know for sure.

[Demigod]

Originally posted by Particleman
Also I wouldn't count on the specs at NV30.com, I have seen various specs most of them conflicting around the net. At this point everything is pretty much a rumor. Some sites say it will have a 128 bit memory bus while some say 256 bit (the newest rumors say 128 bit DDR-II, but again they're all rumors). We'll have to wait till the launch to know for sure.

Well the site is obviously pro-Nvidia, judging from the way they mucked up the Radeon 9700 specs and inflated the NV30's. I would think the memory interface would be 256-bit, otherwise there'd be no way to get that kind of memory bandwidth. Perhaps they'll have a 128-bit version for the value market, I dunno, but they have to at least match the Radeon 9700. I don't think they'll use DDR-II though, as it's still unofficial, although it might support it in a later revision (the Radeon 9700 also supports DDR-II). At any rate Nvidia's being very tight-lipped about the NV30, we can only speculate about its features. I'm not really looking forward to it that much, as the next-generation DX9 card Radeon 9700 is already here and in full bloom.

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The Memory Bandwith is actually 128-bit.


The only reason I am "waiting" to see this NV30 is because Nvidia is touting it the most revolutionary product since the geforce 256.

Somehow I doubt its all that great. "but" it'd be nice.

[Demigod]

Originally posted by ChrisRay
The Memory Bandwith is actually 128-bit.

How could it be? The Radeon 9700 requires 256-bit memory to achieve its bandwidth:

Memory clock x DDR x 256-bit (32 byte) = 310 x 2 x 32 = 19,840 MB/s

If they used 128-bit memory they'd have to use much higher-clocked RAM. The Radeon 9700 employs the GF4's quad-memory architecture, each pipe being 64-bits wide (GF4 uses 32-bit wide pipes) for a total of 256-bit memory. Nvidia would also have to use 256-bit memory, unless they can find RAM chips that can run at over 1200 Mhz DDR. And as I said before, the chances of them using DDR-II is very small.

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Well they have already stated its possible the ram is going to run at 1 Ghz. According to the rumors of the inquirer. They are using DDR 2 I believe.

But I can't say anything for sure until the specs are released. Im most certainly not gonna try and guess on something that hasn't even been paper released yet

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Last edited by ChrisRay; October 20th, 2002 at 17:32..

[Demigod]

DDR-II is far from being finalized and probably won't arrive until well into next year. The easiest and most likely solution would be to use 256-bit DDR like the Radeon 9700 and possibly employ DDR-II in a later revision. If they do release it with DDR-II memory I would be very surprised.

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Heres what I could find on the nv30!


This sneak preview of the NVIDIA NV30 focuses on the architecture behind the chipset and some, but not all of the new features that it will bring. Because we signed an NDA to get this information we wont be giving away performance figures, as mind boggling as we know them to be. Instead we shall focus on "CineFX", NVIDIA's new cinema engine that promises to render animation such as Toy Story; in real time. Since we can't share benchmark figures we will leave you with some thought. NVIDIA says Cinematic quality requires five key points:

1) Advanced Programmability, 2) High Precision Color, 3) High Level Shading Language (CG), 4) Highly Efficient Architecture, 5) High Bandwidth to System Memory and CPU (AGP 8X)

The only other point we can share is that NV30 will use a 256 Bit memory bus and DDR2 memory. Why do we think this?.. Being that the NV30 shall be tweaked to the hilt it would be rather odd if a certain model of the NV3x series did not come with DDR2 if it supports it. Similarly, the ATI R300 and Matrox Parhelia use a 256 Bit memory bus to double bandwidth. We presume not only that NVIDIA will match the bandwidth offered by these by using a 256 Bit memory bus but they will also use DDR2 to provide the bandwidth required for the 'Cinematic' GPU. As we state later on in the article, NVIDIA knows the performance bottleneck is shifting onto GPU processing and this indicates they are using a method to supply a exceptional amount of bandwidth. This could only be 256 Bit memory bus and DDR2.

John Carmack, ID Software, notes in a release NVIDIA gave at SISGraph that the convergence of customer realtime and professional offline rendering is such a step forward that all his previous work, including that on Doom shall be outdated - simply because upto NV30 there were just extensions / additional features to the original chipsets. He states that his next generation of work will be designed around what is possible on the NV30.

"CineFX" is based on third generation shading features. NV30 goes further than the DX9 specification / Pixel Shader 2.0. Because of highly complex shading techniques that can be made possible the NV30 has an increased instruction management subsystem that can handle shader programs up to 256 static instructions long (each static contains 64K of sub instructions), and these can contain loops, branches and call & return. NVIDIA will be pushing the CG programming language to write these highly complex shading programs that previously had to be wrote in assembly language.

The original DirectX 8 1.1 specification allowed for four textures per pass, whilst the 1.4 spec increased this to six. The 2.0 spec increases this to 16 and both the ATI R300 and NV30 support this. With the complexity of shading offered by the NV30's programmability Texture Maps can be replaced by realtime effects, such as the grain in wood. The ATI R300 can process 160 static instructions in one go whilst the NV30 will eat 256. These are maximum permissable and the benefits will only be visible if a) developers write huge instruction sets and b) are willing to use the CG language to write them, as manual would be both difficult and time consuming. The recent idea to make parts of the CG compiler open source is a step in the right direction and is clearly being done now to coincide with the NV30 release.

NV30 is different from its predecessors because it focuses more on the GPU rather than just pushing up frequencies. Modern shading applications, such as new games, apply heavy pressure on the GPU with the result that the performance bottleneck shifts from memory efficiency to computing efficiency. The NV30 is being designed around this notation and by working on computing efficiency NVIDIA hopes to bring a new ere to your graphics.

In addition to this the NV30 includes better algorithms for detecting when hidden pixels that applications are not rendered through the system. This is known as an extension to Hidden Surface Removal and will be a part of a new system NVIDIA said we couldn't talk about, at this time. We have very little information on this ourselves.

Another major breakthrough is the use of 64 and 128 Bit color rendering, more than used for Toy Story 2! The drive for cinematic quality on the desktop called for greater precision, and the NV30 delivers. Developers will be able to use floating point precision throughout the architecture resulting in formidable quality. However this feature is not unique, ATI's 9700 also has 128 Bit precision. NVIDIA has confirmed is shall be using a .13u process for the NV30 core. We expect, although this is totally unconfirmed, that the chipset will reach 400MHz with further frequencies at a push due to the complexity of the chipset.

NV30 looks to us to be the most significant chipset NVIDIA have ever made and it shall be the reason why Microsoft sticks with NVIDIA for the XBox 2. According to NVIDIA you can expect hardware to be on the shelves for Fall '02, at the same time as the introduction of DirectX 9. All we can say, is get saving. Our thanks to NVIDIA Europe for passing on the info.

Picked this off the Madonion boards. The biggest rumors flying around right now is that the Nv30 will use DDR II memory. But like I said. Until I see a paper launch. I am not crossing my fingers about anything.

I really hope Nvidia can release something revolutionary. But we'll have to see.

[Demigod]

Well, I don't know if I'd call DDR-II support revolutionary, the Radeon 9700 already has support for it (perhaps it'll use it in a future version?). ATI really did their homework with the R300, they even managed to honour its' release date and wrote some decent drivers. This is a huge change from the desperate tactics they used with the Radeon 8500 (releasing beta drivers with the initial release). It's good to know that ATI is learning from their past mistakes and showing their potential. They're in a really good position right now, offering superior products in almost all sectors (desktop, mobile, professional). The NV30 should re-claim the crown for Nvidia but it sure is taking a while to get here. If only they hadn't mispredicted the manufacturing process estimate it could be here by now.

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[dogulation000]

Originally posted by Demigod79
Well, I don't know if I'd call DDR-II support revolutionary, the Radeon 9700 already has support for it (perhaps it'll use it in a future version?). ATI really did their homework with the R300, they even managed to honour its' release date and wrote some decent drivers. This is a huge change from the desperate tactics they used with the Radeon 8500 (releasing beta drivers with the initial release). It's good to know that ATI is learning from their past mistakes and showing their potential. They're in a really good position right now, offering superior products in almost all sectors (desktop, mobile, professional). The NV30 should re-claim the crown for Nvidia but it sure is taking a while to get here. If only they hadn't mispredicted the manufacturing process estimate it could be here by now.

Yes, the really messed up with the Radeon 8500. And I wouldn't cal their new drivers decent... from what I heard, they were pretty good.

Hmm well I wasn't thinking about the DDR II being revolutionary. I was really interested in the CineFX and expanding beyond DX 9.0. It'd be nice to see more features that meet the calls above and beyond What microsoft has planned.

[_E_]

Originally posted by sxamiga
Blade_Jae, I am reading this and have read it. After reading all replies and some careful consideration, I think I will stick w/the TI 4600 for now and wait for the NV30. Thanks for all the replies and reccomendations.
Thanks a lot, Shadow Lady, for the link to the review of the NV30. I read it throughly and there was even a link to a comparison of the NV30 versus the 9700 pro and the TI 4600. The NV30 met or beat the 9700 pro in all but a few areas and both cards topped the 4600. So from the review and the comparison, I think it is wise to stay w/the TI 4600 for now and then definately move up to the NV30 when it comes out. Thanks again for the very informative link, Shadow Lady.
Ninja, the 9700 pro is, as you say, a quality card and very very tempting. But the NV30 looks to be just as sweet and just as tempting. Also, as has been stated, I haven't even begun to max out the TI 4600 yet, so why spend more money when I don't need to. Thanks for your views.
sincerely,
sx/amiga

sx/amiga , sorry for my delayed response for i saw this post lately. I dont see why you should upgrade from ou Geforce 4 unless it doesnt work decently. As i recall from a previous thread, where me and you discussed a Geforce II vs Geforce IV, you said that Geforce 4 can handle anything. My point is that you stick to your card until its time for it to retire. Buying an NV30, even when it comes out, would cost more than its price the following year, And as long the new games dont require such cards, i dont think its time for upgrade, even if the NV30 comes out. Anyhow, its all your choice after all, and all what is written by me just expresses my opinion,.........

Kingstar

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Last edited by _E_; October 20th, 2002 at 20:44..

[average_guy]

the AGP 8X is not much faster than APG 4X

source taken from tomshardware.com
they benchmark on quake3 and other games, and APG 8X is only faster by few fps.