AMD vs Intel (2008)

[QuantumDelta]

Well a harshly overclocked Phenom (X4) 9850 BE (the newer ones with the fixed problem) (read: 3Ghz clockspeed, can't do it without modifiying voltage on most of the stuff they pump out, it will happen on some of the stuff though, but it's not too common, naturally with the way cpus are produced it'll get more common later into the cpu batch life cycle, but yea) will beat a Q6600 - just.

ATM The AMD Processor is running in at ~130 GBP.
The Intel Processor can be overclocked as well and is retailing at ~110 GBP.
(Since most of you are 'mericans it's a really easy conversation atm, 1 GBP = 2 USD most or less).
Based on this AMD have gotten themselves back in the race, but they really have to do something about their clockspeeds.
I mean sure their architecture is what, 20-25% more efficient?
But Intel can just keep ramping up the clock speeds and leave AMD in the dirt if they don't do somethin about it soon.
AMD are just lucky their CPUs are designed so well they don't bat an eyelid to heavy OCing, you can probably get the 9850's up to 3.5 if you really go for it.

Meh.
It ain't over yet, I actually thought AMD had given up this year until I saw full details on the 9850.
They seriously need to do somethin about their cache and cpu cycle speed though.

[runawayprisoner]

Actually, Intel's architecture is still more efficient. And Intel's architecture is still more overclockable, with a Q6600 reaching 4GHz easily (it's REALLY easy. I guess... just not so many people dare try). And a Q6600 at 2.4GHz murders the same Phenom running at 2.8GHz in some cases.

I know there's an infraction of price over there in the UK, and I'm really sorry about it, but... there's just so many things we can do about prices. Here, I can get a Q9450 for the same price you get that 9850 BE, and I can guarantee you that there's no way in hell you can catch up to the Q9450 with a Phenom.

So... AMD is nowhere back in the CPU race... sorry about that.

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[QuantumDelta]

Hmmmm?
Efficiency isn't about how many HURTZ you can put the chip through before it flops over and calls you a demon and bursts into flames.

You intel fanboys are weird :P

With less cache size, and less cycles to calculate with, most AMD processors have always kept up with 'brute force' design Intel processors.

Even Intels' newest concept pieces come along on these lines, they've gotten away with it this time because they had the infrastructure and capacity to make the 45nm jump before AMD did.
It really is as absolutely blitzingly simple as that (though it didn't help that AMDs starting bid in the Quad core market was terrible).
AMD have been better with less for a long time and you only get that with efficiency.

[runawayprisoner]

Nope. Efficiency is how many tasks, and how fast one can do such tasks with one HURTZ, and obviously Intel has an edge with that. The more HURTZ thing is called overclockability, not efficiency.

Don't believe me? See for yourself.

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/682/4/

That's a 9850 review there. 9850 at stock 2.5GHz, and there's also Q6600 at stock 2.4GHz for reference.

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[QuantumDelta]

You're still missing the big picture:

* QX9775 - 800MHz @ 5-5-5-15 (FB-DIMM)
* QX9770 - 1600MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* QX6850 - 1333MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* Q6600 - 1066MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* E8500 - 1333MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* E6750 - 1333MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* Phenom 9850 - 800MHz @ 5-5-5-15 (DDR2)
* Phenom 9600 - 800MHz @ 5-5-5-15 (DDR2)
With less cache and therefore even more need to access the (slower, and on a slower FSB) RAM the Phenom suffers problems the Intel chips don't have to worry about.
Most of that leeway (infact last time I checked all of it) comes from the fact that they are based on 45nm technology.
If the Phenoms had the cache space and extra diesize space to play around with, they would be significantly - not even slightly, but significantly better.

Intel were losing.
They threw money at it and jumped ahead in a way that they knew AMD couldn't compete.
They're now using quite mature technology due to for the most part, their own advanced RnD.

You watch.
AMD'll scale down to 45nm by the end of this year and be competitive for a while, Intel will respond by doing nothing other than ramping their CPU cycles and/or slapping on a bigger cache and just charging more.
After that it depends on what the concept stuff plays out at.
Z-RAM could well have a HUGE impact, and Intel have their eyes on new markets.

[runawayprisoner]

Didn't someone just say that current AMD processors do NOT have FSBs?

And DDR3 is useless. Believe me or not. A Q6600 running with 1066MHz DDR3 RAM is just about as fast as the same processor running with 533MHz DDR2 RAM. Practical RAM speed (that means the maximum rate at which the processor can access RAM) on Intel platforms is half of the FSB, not the same.

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[QuantumDelta]

It's a bit deceptive to out and out say they don't have an FSB, since the tech they replaced it with is basically the same as far as mobos care..

I'll admit I haven't had chance to play with any DDR3 but RAM speeds always made a fairly significant impact on AMD processors in my personal experience..

[Glaedrin]

Originally Posted by QuantumDelta

* QX9775 - 800MHz @ 5-5-5-15 (FB-DIMM)
* QX9770 - 1600MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* QX6850 - 1333MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* Q6600 - 1066MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* E8500 - 1333MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* E6750 - 1333MHz @ 7-7-7-20 (DDR3)
* Phenom 9850 - 800MHz @ 5-5-5-15 (DDR2)
* Phenom 9600 - 800MHz @ 5-5-5-15 (DDR2)
With less cache and therefore even more need to access the (slower, and on a slower FSB) RAM the Phenom suffers problems the Intel chips don't have to worry about.

Not to be "that guy" but, OMG!!! AMD DOES NOT HAVE AN EFFIN FSB!!! You sir are making us AMD enthusiasts look bad (I mean come on, not knowing your own architecture?)

But I do agree that the added cache will significantly help game performance. This does not mean that they will be able to catch up to Nehalem (unless Intel made another P4)

I also agree that Intel does "brute force" a lot, just look at their so called quad core, can you say "cheap shortcut"? AMDs memory performance is still legendary, all they need is a die shrink, some tweaking, more cache (for the love of god!) and a DDR3 memory controller and they will be much more competitive (Hypertransport 3.0 would really come in handy with the DDR3 controller)

AMD CPUs can take advantage of much more memory bandwidth because of their very efficient on-die memory controllers, and no, FSB and HyperTransport are RIDICULOUSLY different. You do not OC a "FSB" on an AMD Mobo, you OC the NB (which can get ludicrously high clocks because it is much more simple than the Intel NBs)

DDR3 would make a difference with AMD CPUs, as long as the latency is not so bad (so if it comes out, don't get cheapo DDR3 RAM for your AMD CPU)

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Last edited by Glaedrin; July 30th, 2008 at 06:33. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[QuantumDelta]

Glaedrin, read the quote again and the sentence that the brackets are enclosed in.
The actual FSB comment was refering entirely to the RAM.

I'm not actually (really!) an AMD enthusiast, like I said previously either, having a loyalty to a brand means you are likely to overlook the competition when you will find better deals elsewhere.
HT translates into FSB before it hits ram so for the purpose of memory access discussion there is absolutely no difference at all despite the way that you access it for overclocking (which, as I also mentioned before makes AMDs the better OC CPU - since forever on pretty much any core, it's just that their stock values have been lower and people love TEH BIG NUMBARZ) - that admittedly I such much prefered when I was younger and had less budget to chuck around.

Please don't choice-deconstruct my sentences they're often specifically worded for intent :<

[runawayprisoner]

Front side bus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FSB is still not only for RAM. And I guess you just said it yourself, you are not an AMD enthusiast, THUS why you don't know what FSB actually is. So... it's not entirely correct to say that HyperTransport translates into FSB before it hits RAM, because... for the sake of reference, AMD's CPUs running on HyperTransport have built-in memory controllers. On Intel platforms, the memory controller is on the Northbridge instead of the CPU, thus why Intel motherboards have DDR3 support and AMD motherboards don't. AMD has to update their CPUs altogether to use DDR3. Intel just has to change the NB chip. Plus FSB is the link between the CPU and the NB of the motherboard.

And the rest is just as anyone can imagine it. Well, I think I'll stop it, too. Imposing knowledge on others is not something I should do, and I'd much prefer the person to learn about these terms on his own more.

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Last edited by runawayprisoner; July 30th, 2008 at 07:22.

[Squall-Leonhart]

FSB is the intermediary between the CPU and the RAM (The northbridge memory controller) however its also communicates between PCI, PCI-E, SATA, IDE, blah controllers.

K8+ does not have a FSB frequency for RAM.

Currently, DDR3 latencies are too high to make them that much faster then DDR2, the only thing going for them is the lower voltages, the K10 problem lies in the small cache, 2mb across 4 cores is just not enough (and remember its a shared cache)

Now going from memory, with the 9850 and E6600 weren't that far apart 15-20 seconds in conversion, which shows a clear lack of ondie cache for precaching data... i think the worst performance problem is the fact that AMD's new architecture has advanced preemptive caching abilities, but doesn't have the required ondie cache available to make use of it, resulting in data swapping which slows the cores processing down.

With no reasonable doubt, kingdom hearts is,,,,,,

err... i mean the extra cache will definitely give a reasonable boost to performance, not to mention the extra mhz gained via the process shrink.

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[runawayprisoner]

But overclocking potential may shrink as well, due to that the gates are much smaller (45nm), and may not respond well with voltage increases. Some are not over-volting their 45nm processors much due to that very reason.

And Kingdom Hearts is an endless vessel of hearts... Which would mean it's perfect for caching!

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[Squall-Leonhart]

AMD's haven't really had overheating issues since the K7.... the only reason people have heat problems is they don't have efficiently setup cooling situations.

You want to have more cool air coming into the case, then hot air blowing out, for the soul reasoning of air pressure.

Warm air is lighter and rises, cool air is heavier, and helps drive the hot air out of a case.

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

But overclocking potential may shrink as well, due to that the gates are much smaller (45nm), and may not respond well with voltage increases. Some are not over-volting their 45nm processors much due to that very reason.

And Kingdom Hearts is an endless vessel of hearts... Which would mean it's perfect for caching!

the recent engineering sample, got a 1.24ghz overclock. 2.2 - 3.44, with a .2-.3v increase.

I'm thinking they pulled a die rearrange and found a more capable design.

5 days ago

45nm Phenom overclocking test - Expreview.com

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Last edited by Squall-Leonhart; July 30th, 2008 at 07:52. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[QuantumDelta]

My rig has pretty much reached the end of it's life cycle in gaming terms (it's oooooold even though it's dual core/3850HD components are fairly updated, but the RAM is as good as it can get and it's: Get this: Kingston 512MB 3-3-3-8 x4 200MHZ SDRAM(DDR), the board can't take higher).
I have only my own experience to speak from since I tend not to look up stuff if I know how to tinker with it so I always simply figured HT was basically FSB with different memory management - I didn't realise HOW different.

You're quite welcome to impart knowledgez in this direction ;P

[Squall-Leonhart]

wierd.. my PNY 1024MB is 3-3-3-6......

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[QuantumDelta]

Originally Posted by Squall-Leonhart

wierd.. my PNY 1024MB is 3-3-3-6......

Well it's actually running at 191.7 2.5/3/3/7 atm :P

[Squall-Leonhart]

lol, i have no desire to stress this memory, its running faster at stock then my old Corsair 333 dual channel was.

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[gamefreak94]

If AMD take advantage of DDR3 RAM, then wont it cost an ittsy wittsy bit more to get that RAM and also get a mobo that supports it. Anyway, an averagely OCed E8600 will easily dessimate any Phenom X3 out there. And as for the people saying that the Phenom X4s are budget quad-cores, then just go and buy yourselves a Q6600 for $170, and these Conroe chips are bound to get even cheaper with the release of Nehalem in a couple of months. Speaking of Nehalem, it will put Intel in an even greater lead when it comes to shear performance. Intel processors also perform better then their AMD counter-parts, a 2 GHz dual-core will easily beat an 2.2 GHz dual-core Athlon.

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[Squall-Leonhart]

this is why AMD waits for Intel to adopt new memory tech before moving to it themselves.

this allows price drops, and technology improvements, so as not to force buggy tech on people.

anyway, now that they've got 45nm taped out, they will probably start pumping funds into K12 development.

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Last edited by Squall-Leonhart; July 30th, 2008 at 09:19. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[there148]

hi

i just got an amd puma laptop. it has the griffin cpu(rm-70) and the hd3200 igp. so far, im able to play everything(dmc4, oblivion, wow) at reasonable setting and speed. so with that, i will vote amd.

the cost is about the same as a similarly equipped intel cpu with x3100. so for the price, amd has won me since i value 3d performance over how fast it takes to open a document.

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