PSP2 expected within the next 12 months with possibly the strength of a GTX 260. - Page 2

runawayprisoner · 4 Weeks Ago

FYI, though, the "earlier" series that Apple is using also has a 28MPoly/sec fillrate on paper, and it's barely keeping up with 400K. And that's another thing that I'd like to mention. MPolys/sec is another fillrate figure... The true real-life performance of the chip is usually much lower (up to 1/100) its fillrate on paper because MPolys/sec are usually calculated when there are no textures applied or no geometric transformation occurring.

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bkwegoharder · 4 Weeks Ago

When the ps2 has nothing applied to its polygons it does 75 million per second. It's early games are able to do 20 million though. going down to 1/100th of the performance is just to drastic. Especially when you look at that 400K number. The Nintendo DS can do 120,000 polygons per second with all effects applied at about 60fps. The dreamcast has numbers in the millions. These numbers are down to ps1/n64/ds generation numbers. The iphone can emulate the ps1, I really doubt the performance is that low. Many iphone games have shown graphics that are way better than many Dreamcast games and the dreamcast has polygon counts that are in the millions.

Many developers have stated that the iphone graphics are of ps2/xbox/gamecube tier. that is just not possible with just a 400K polygon count.

**Cid Highwind** · 4 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkwegoharder

When the ps2 has nothing applied to its polygons it does 75 million per second. It's early games are able to do 20 million though. going down to 1/100th of the performance is just to drastic. Especially when you look at that 400K number. The Nintendo DS can do 120,000 polygons per second with all effects applied at about 60fps. The dreamcast has numbers in the millions. These numbers are down to ps1/n64/ds generation numbers. The iphone can emulate the ps1, I really doubt the performance is that low. Many iphone games have shown graphics that are way better than many Dreamcast games and the dreamcast has polygon counts that are in the millions.

Many developers have stated that the iphone graphics are of ps2/xbox/gamecube tier. that is just not possible with just a 400K polygon count.

I would like to see some screenshots then of those Dreamcast beating iPhone games. I can imagine this with games that are nothing more than high resolution Playstation ports, but anything that's been developed for the system natively I really doubt it would come close. In fact, it wouldn't need to be either, seeing how you've got a tiny screen anyway.

Let's just hope they won't make the same mistake as with PS2 by making polygon power more important than texturing capability. I'd love to see some PSP graphics with Dreamcast level textures. Because I certainly believe Monster Hunter would be a beauty to behold, while now the textures just look terribly stale.

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bkwegoharder · 4 Weeks Ago

Yeah that is my point, if the iphone really had a 400K polygon rate, Dreamcast games would look better, but obviously that is not true.

**Cid Highwind** · 4 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkwegoharder

Yeah that is my point, if the iphone really had a 400K polygon rate, Dreamcast games would look better, but obviously that is not true.

I find that a bold claim, hence why I wouldn't mind having some examples of games you find to be better looking than Dreamcast games.

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bkwegoharder · 4 Weeks Ago

Oh I guess I misunderstood you.

http://ui01.gamefaqs.com/2368/gfs_115958_2_2.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images..._screen004.jpg

http://www.gamefaqs.com/mobile/iphon...456.html?gs=20

I think that MGS touch looks better than a lot of Dreamcast games, at they very very least it is on par, something like that wouldn't be possible with a 400K polygon rate

**Cid Highwind** · 4 Weeks Ago

MGS looks good, definitely, though I think it's rather because of all the effort the developers put into it rather than the technical limitations of the Dreamcast hardware. For that very same reason there's Playstation 2 games that look fabulous despite the ancient hardware and its problems (lack of texturing capability and easy to implement anti aliasing). Dreamcast also suffered from being the pioneer in its class, since it was the first of the new generation consoles. It got way too many ports that were nothing more than high resolution PSX games, with some added bilinear filtering and AA. You can't compare stuff like Metropolis Street Racer or Jet Set Radio to crap like Fighting Force 2 or WWF Attitude.

Anyway, seems like I highly underestimated the graphical capabilities of that system. That game certainly looks impressive. On the other hand, I wonder how well it would do if it had to render a dynamic environment, such as a lively city to walk through like seen in Shenmue. With small areas like in a static shooter you can put much more detail. Nevertheless, Sega themselves have stated that the iPhone is as powerful as a Dreamcast, so it's kinda hard to deny that. Technology certainly hasn't stood still.

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bkwegoharder · 4 Weeks Ago

yeah, the iphone isn't really orientated for gaming so developers usually put in very little effort. John carmack said that it was on xbox level.

runawayprisoner · 4 Weeks Ago

MGS touch is irrelevant in terms of texture or polygon discussions... sorry to say that.

Because the game is pure 2D. Any and all 3D stuffs you see in it are pre-rendered and pasted in like some kind of cut-out paper character. You have to see it in action to really know though...

So in that regard, I'm sorry to say that iPhone games are far below DreamCast quality still (if you use MGS touch as a comparison). Unless you can find another game that is truly 3D and really is better than DreamCast.

Or better yet, how about I find it for you?

That's the current gen PowerVR SGX prowess. I'm guessing around 2-4K polygon each car, so 40 cars would be 80-160K polygons not counting the background, so somewhere around 160K poly to 240K poly. Not too bad... but it's still below PS2 quality. But if you ask me, I didn't see anything like that on DreamCast.

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Last edited by runawayprisoner; 4 Weeks Ago at 16:59..

Silenus · 4 Weeks Ago

I played MGS touch and it was just pasted like you said, not real textures.

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bkwegoharder · 4 Weeks Ago

Wow, I didn't know that about MGS touch. I just remembered that there was a mgs game for the iphone so I looked it up and I looked at the pictures. My bad on that one.

**Cid Highwind** · 4 Weeks Ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by runawayprisoner

MGS touch is irrelevant in terms of texture or polygon discussions... sorry to say that.

Because the game is pure 2D. Any and all 3D stuffs you see in it are pre-rendered and pasted in like some kind of cut-out paper character. You have to see it in action to really know though...

So in that regard, I'm sorry to say that iPhone games are far below DreamCast quality still (if you use MGS touch as a comparison). Unless you can find another game that is truly 3D and really is better than DreamCast.

Or better yet, how about I find it for you?

That's the current gen PowerVR SGX prowess. I'm guessing around 2-4K polygon each car, so 40 cars would be 80-160K polygons not counting the background, so somewhere around 160K poly to 240K poly. Not too bad... but it's still below PS2 quality. But if you ask me, I didn't see anything like that on DreamCast.

It's got some nasty framedrops with the 40 cars though. I think the only DC game that can come close is AM2's F355 Challenge: Passione Rossa. That game was beautiful and really a showcase for the system. The car models were really well made, as were the tracks. The lighting was stunning for that time, but right now it really shows that technology has caught up. I think that's the disadvantage of Dreamcast anyway, its rendering technologies and graphical effects are simply very limited compared to more modern chips. The graphical chip could do some nice effects, but you won't see too much dynamic lighting or so. The best you can find would be bump mapping, and even that is used scarcely. I think only Skies of Arcadia shows a clear example of it.

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4 Weeks Ago	#21 (permalink)
runawayprisoner Mobile Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 6,207	FYI, though, the "earlier" series that Apple is using also has a 28MPoly/sec fillrate on paper, and it's barely keeping up with 400K. And that's another thing that I'd like to mention. MPolys/sec is another fillrate figure... The true real-life performance of the chip is usually much lower (up to 1/100) its fillrate on paper because MPolys/sec are usually calculated when there are no textures applied or no geometric transformation occurring. __________________ cChip interpreter WIP - current status: Release Candidate LRx Filter RC - current performance rating: 9/10

4 Weeks Ago	#22 (permalink)
bkwegoharder Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 311	When the ps2 has nothing applied to its polygons it does 75 million per second. It's early games are able to do 20 million though. going down to 1/100th of the performance is just to drastic. Especially when you look at that 400K number. The Nintendo DS can do 120,000 polygons per second with all effects applied at about 60fps. The dreamcast has numbers in the millions. These numbers are down to ps1/n64/ds generation numbers. The iphone can emulate the ps1, I really doubt the performance is that low. Many iphone games have shown graphics that are way better than many Dreamcast games and the dreamcast has polygon counts that are in the millions. Many developers have stated that the iphone graphics are of ps2/xbox/gamecube tier. that is just not possible with just a 400K polygon count.

4 Weeks Ago	#24 (permalink)
bkwegoharder Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 311	Yeah that is my point, if the iphone really had a 400K polygon rate, Dreamcast games would look better, but obviously that is not true.

4 Weeks Ago	#26 (permalink)
bkwegoharder Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 311	Oh I guess I misunderstood you. http://ui01.gamefaqs.com/2368/gfs_115958_2_2.jpg http://image.com.com/gamespot/images..._screen004.jpg http://www.gamefaqs.com/mobile/iphon...456.html?gs=20 I think that MGS touch looks better than a lot of Dreamcast games, at they very very least it is on par, something like that wouldn't be possible with a 400K polygon rate

4 Weeks Ago	#27 (permalink)
Cid Highwind Human Metal Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Holland / Hungary Posts: 13,541	MGS looks good, definitely, though I think it's rather because of all the effort the developers put into it rather than the technical limitations of the Dreamcast hardware. For that very same reason there's Playstation 2 games that look fabulous despite the ancient hardware and its problems (lack of texturing capability and easy to implement anti aliasing). Dreamcast also suffered from being the pioneer in its class, since it was the first of the new generation consoles. It got way too many ports that were nothing more than high resolution PSX games, with some added bilinear filtering and AA. You can't compare stuff like Metropolis Street Racer or Jet Set Radio to crap like Fighting Force 2 or WWF Attitude. Anyway, seems like I highly underestimated the graphical capabilities of that system. That game certainly looks impressive. On the other hand, I wonder how well it would do if it had to render a dynamic environment, such as a lively city to walk through like seen in Shenmue. With small areas like in a static shooter you can put much more detail. Nevertheless, Sega themselves have stated that the iPhone is as powerful as a Dreamcast, so it's kinda hard to deny that. Technology certainly hasn't stood still. __________________ PC Specs: CPU: Intel Q8200 @ 2.8GHz GPU: Sapphire ATi HD4870 / 1024MB / Core: 801 / Mem: 1000 Mobo: Gigabyte EP35-DS3 (rev 2.1) SPU: Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music RAM: 2GB Kingston HyperX DDR2 1066 @ 4-4-4-12 ~ 800MHz HDD: 1TB Samsung Spinpoint, 32MB PSU: Hiper Type-R 580W Monitor: Iiyama B2403WS / 19201200 Geometry Wars: 198.400 Lumines: 999.999 Join the NGEmu Folding @ Home community NOW!*

4 Weeks Ago	#28 (permalink)
bkwegoharder Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 311	yeah, the iphone isn't really orientated for gaming so developers usually put in very little effort. John carmack said that it was on xbox level.

4 Weeks Ago	#29 (permalink)
runawayprisoner Mobile Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Santa Cruz, CA Posts: 6,207	MGS touch is irrelevant in terms of texture or polygon discussions... sorry to say that. Because the game is pure 2D. Any and all 3D stuffs you see in it are pre-rendered and pasted in like some kind of cut-out paper character. You have to see it in action to really know though... So in that regard, I'm sorry to say that iPhone games are far below DreamCast quality still (if you use MGS touch as a comparison). Unless you can find another game that is truly 3D and really is better than DreamCast. Or better yet, how about I find it for you? That's the current gen PowerVR SGX prowess. I'm guessing around 2-4K polygon each car, so 40 cars would be 80-160K polygons not counting the background, so somewhere around 160K poly to 240K poly. Not too bad... but it's still below PS2 quality. But if you ask me, I didn't see anything like that on DreamCast. __________________ cChip interpreter WIP - current status: Release Candidate LRx Filter RC - current performance rating: 9/10 Last edited by runawayprisoner; 4 Weeks Ago at 16:59..

4 Weeks Ago	#30 (permalink)
Silenus Pilgrim Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Hyperion Posts: 3,382	I played MGS touch and it was just pasted like you said, not real textures. __________________ --ASUS G50VT-X1 - P8400 2.5GHZ - Geforce 9800GS 512MB - HDD 320GB - 4GB DDR2 800MHZ - WINDOWS 7 64 BIT - ZALMAN NC2000-- ...Mis sueños son mentiras que algun día dejarán de serlo...

4 Weeks Ago	#31 (permalink)
bkwegoharder Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 311	Wow, I didn't know that about MGS touch. I just remembered that there was a mgs game for the iphone so I looked it up and I looked at the pictures. My bad on that one.