Why PS3 poor backward compatibility

[FoxSevent]

here can someone tell me why PS3 has poor or eve some models of PS3 don't have backward compatibility

I understand that main problem is upscaling cause of HD
But lest put upscaling aside

First PS 1 compatibility Sony had no problem making PS2 compatibility
with PS 1 games no problem at least i don't know any so why the problem implant that into PS3

PS2 i can understand that PS 2 is a complex gaming system but
lets face Sony has full documentation of PS2 every part the know how everything work in it and they could make an entire team work on its compatibility for PS3
And by team i mean form 20 to 50 programmers


if PCSX2 team had that documentation and know everything about PS2 and had that many people the we would have full working emu for PC in matter of days

I know that PS1/2 are way different than PS3 and i know that Sony try to implant some parts of PS2 into PS3 but what i mean above is that they should make it compatibility by software only
but see how PCSX2 team has gotten far and there only few people working on it with very less knowledge abaut how PS2 works

So simple Question "Why"

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Last edited by FoxSevent; January 29th, 2009 at 18:00..

[galson]

To be honest with you, ask Sony as it has been proven that all PS3 consoles, even those without EE/GS are perfectly able to run PS2 games via software emulation but for some reason that feature has been locked out in the firmware. So... Why? No idea, I fail to see the logic here too, but you know, apparently in Sony's "own world" PS2 emulation doesn't exist.

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[Radix865]

Well, I don't really care as I have PS2 of my own along with PSX and PS3 but I agree that it is pretty stupid.

I think galson is on the right tracks though... Must be that Sony thinks emulation same as piracy/illegal/very-very-bad.

Or it might simply be to make sure they can keep selling PS2 consoles for a little longer... Who knows, maybe they're just waiting to release a firmware with upgrade to that when PS2 is completely dead

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[Titus03]

Yeah, money talks in this case. PS2 has been still in the markets amazingly long time. Haven't seen XBox 1:s and Cubes around for a while.

They can't think that emulating their own stuff with their own emulator would be illegal. Emulation is a tool for developers, too. Very important in some cases.

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[lagunareturns]

they want to control what you can play, just in case someone runs swapmagic and uses an elf file to run ps3 games... it is actually possible if swap magic had fully working capabilities

[runawayprisoner]

Why? Because people can modify their PS3s to play PS2 backups.

...it's like the 10,000th time I've said that. I wonder when people would realize it.

Officially, Sony got the software emulation to reach experimental AA upscaling (think PCSX2 and GSDX) and made most games look very HD, and such feature is still available for debugging... but they don't want to release it MOST LIKELY because if they did, many would modify their PS3s just to play PS2 games. And mind you, the modification part is not that hard.

...don't underestimate piracy. It's not like we still live in 2005 when you need to go underground to look for a modchip of some sort. Everything is pretty much DYI and plausible now.

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[FoxSevent]

yeah i remember those times

But to the topic why piracy would make Sony cancel PS1/2 emulator
PS3 will get moded sooner or later and even now you can buy a Blue Ray drive
although it cost the same as a new PS2 now xD but with time prices goes down
for example Sony implant PS1 emulation into PSP of course you can only play those games that are on Sony site to buy and now after little playing with custom software and you can convert any PS1 game onto PSP

My point is that canceling the PS1/2 emulator wont stop people from modding theirs PS3 so why did they bother canceling it doing so they only hurt us for no good reason

And modding the PS3 just to play pirated PS2 games is stupid cause PS3 cost double/triple the price of PS2 id rather buy a modded PS2

[runawayprisoner]

No... actually, without PS1/PS2 emulation, there'd be no modding at all for the PS3. It's an impenetrable fortress at this point. 4 years into its life and not even the slightest sight of anything to do with the XMB.

So at this point, preventing PS1/PS2 emulation DOES prevent everyone from modding their PS3s.

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[Paratech]

But there is PSone emulation on PS3 systems, you can download PSOne games off Sony's store and play them on the PS3, just not play PSOne games directly from originals.

Ka-Ching, another way to make you buy what you already own.

Not that I haven't thought of doing that with some Nintendo games on the Wii, actually I already purchased Zelda: A Link to the Past for the Wii and I still have the cartridge for the SNES.

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[Phil]

Sony is stell selling gthe Ps2. Why would they be stupid enough to have the PS3 play PS2 games also? Think of it from a money point of view.

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[FoxSevent]

I don't really think so i think its because the Blue Ray drive which can burn blue ray disc as well as disc is way to expensive

As well as the games itself are to big for example MGS 4 weight around 50gb download that of a torrent on my net would take about 2 months 24/7 downloading
And yeah money is a good reason too
But the why would they start making PS2 emulation in the PS3 in the first place
And yeah i know i can buy PSone games at Sony site for PSP/PS3 but there are only few good games nothign big like tekken or any FF

[Spyhop]

I don't like the PS3's upscaling anyway. PCSX2 promises to be so much more with true resolution upscaling instead of just image upscaling, and it already is on quite a few games.

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[Paratech]

Originally Posted by Phil

Sony is stell selling gthe Ps2. Why would they be stupid enough to have the PS3 play PS2 games also? Think of it from a money point of view.

Because they might want PS3 sales instead of PS2 sales?

What's the good in selling $120 PS2 systems compared to selling $400 PS3 systems? unless they're afraid people will buy PS3 systems and just buy PS2 games, but in that case why would they buy a PS3 if they could buy a PS2?

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[Phil]

Easy. Kaz Harai wrongly thought that the PS2 would sell so much that they would kill the PS2. But when sells tanked whiled the Ps2 battled on, they removed Ps2 compatibility to give the Ps2 itself more selling clout.

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[lagunareturns]

ps1 downloadable games for ps3 are encrypted, same will be for the ps2 ones once they become available... it wont be done from disc because if it allows the game to be copied to hard drive from a disc then it wont stop someone borrowing a friends disc and installing it... also they wont allow running ps1 games from disc because a friend of mine confirmed that the blu ray drive ps3 is unable determine if a ps1 disc is copied (on selected cdrs) or not, so if there is ps1 support from cd it can play copied games

[Phil]

Easy. Kaz Harai wrongly thought that the PS2 would sell so much that they would kill the PS2. But when sells tanked whiled the Ps2 battled on, they removed Ps2 compatibility to give the Ps2 itself more selling clout.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by Paratech

But there is PSone emulation on PS3 systems, you can download PSOne games off Sony's store and play them on the PS3, just not play PSOne games directly from originals.

Ka-Ching, another way to make you buy what you already own.

No... actually, you can play originals as well. Problem is that what you need to run backups of PS1 games on the PS3 isn't so available anymore, so even if you do manage to mod the console to play PS1 games, you'd still be missing the chess piece. (geh. )

Whereas with PS2... you can still get what you need to play backups in stores, and in bulks.

Hint: an original CD or DVD of a game is required to play backups.

Not that I haven't thought of doing that with some Nintendo games on the Wii, actually I already purchased Zelda: A Link to the Past for the Wii and I still have the cartridge for the SNES.

Wii has an emulator for each game on the Shop channel... because if you calculate your Wii blocks, it wouldn't make sense for some N64 or NES games to take as many blocks as a Wiiware, would it?

In the same note, Sony might move to game and emulator in a single package like Wii instead of releasing the emulator as some feature of the XMB. That way... they can provide downloadable PS2 games and still won't have to worry about PS2 game backups because there's nothing to run the disc to begin with. Seems like they're already doing that for some PS1 downloadable games.

Originally Posted by FoxSevent

As well as the games itself are to big for example MGS 4 weight around 50gb download that of a torrent on my net would take about 2 months 24/7 downloading

It's actually around 32GB in size. But size aside, Sony still wants to maintain the 0% piracy rate for developers.

But the why would they start making PS2 emulation in the PS3 in the first place

Read above... potential emulator + game package. In other words... a game will have its own version of the emulator and the package will be downloadable via PSN or something like that.

And yeah i know i can buy PSone games at Sony site for PSP/PS3 but there are only few good games nothign big like tekken or any FF

Blame Sony of America. Sony of Japan releases PS1 titles in bulks and weekly. They have quite a collection now with a lot of hit titles, including Metal Gear Solid.

Whether it's $$$ or anything, it just comes down to piracy, peeps... because... face it, everyone likes free stuffs. Or at least most of the planet do. Piracy has had enough of an impact on the industry that annoying DRM measures are being taken to the point of being illegal. But that still doesn't stop piracy... indeed... so whenever something like this happens (a console with 0% piracy rate), they would try to keep it at that at all costs. If you want the honest good ol' gaming world to come back, go eradicate all pirates off the face of the planet.

By the way, we're talking about thousands of websites, each with close to millions of members throughout the world, in EACH country.

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[masta.g.86]

Originally Posted by Phil

Sony is stell selling gthe Ps2. Why would they be stupid enough to have the PS3 play PS2 games also? Think of it from a money point of view.

I'm going to have to agree with Phil on this one. If you look at PS3's timeline, you see hardware b/c, then software b/c, and then none at all. On to sales figures: PS3's sales absolutely suck for a new system, and what's worse is that despite Sony selling their flagship console at (currently) $400, it's still selling at a net loss. Meanwhile, the PS2 is still selling despite the fact that it was supposed to be "dead" a year or so after PS3's release. Each PS2 sold nets Sony a gain. (er, it makes them some money.)

The removal of b/c entirely is due to the fact that Sony is posting losses all over the board and the PS2 is still a reliable source of income. If these new PS3s had b/c, the "few" people buying them would now no longer need a PS2, and Sony would be selling that PS3 to them at a loss.

The playing of PS2 backups on a PS3 only works on PS3s with hardware b/c. The claim that Sony removed software b/c to curb piracy is irrelevant. Hardware b/c, on the other hand, was removed in favor of software b/c to lower manufacturing costs. (so Sony doesn't lose as much money for every PS3 sold.)

The fact that PS2 game piracy is somewhat curbed is not the main reason for Sony's decision to remove b/c altogether. It's as said: financial reasons.

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[Spyhop]

Originally Posted by masta.g.86

I'm going to have to agree with Phil on this one. If you look at PS3's timeline, you see hardware b/c, then software b/c, and then none at all. On to sales figures: PS3's sales absolutely suck for a new system, and what's worse is that despite Sony selling their flagship console at (currently) $400, it's still selling at a net loss. Meanwhile, the PS2 is still selling despite the fact that it was supposed to be "dead" a year or so after PS3's release. Each PS2 sold nets Sony a gain. (er, it makes them some money.)

The removal of b/c entirely is due to the fact that Sony is posting losses all over the board and the PS2 is still a reliable source of income. If these new PS3s had b/c, the "few" people buying them would now no longer need a PS2, and Sony would be selling that PS3 to them at a loss.

The playing of PS2 backups on a PS3 only works on PS3s with hardware b/c. The claim that Sony removed software b/c to curb piracy is irrelevant. Hardware b/c, on the other hand, was removed in favor of software b/c to lower manufacturing costs. (so Sony doesn't lose as much money for every PS3 sold.)

The fact that PS2 game piracy is somewhat curbed is not the main reason for Sony's decision to remove b/c altogether. It's as said: financial reasons.

That's plausible, but it ignores the bigger picture. It's not in Sony's best interest to sell the PS2 at the expense of PS3 sales.

More PS3 sales = Wider adoption = More PS3 games sold = more long-term money for Sony.

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[runawayprisoner]

Originally Posted by masta.g.86

The playing of PS2 backups on a PS3 only works on PS3s with hardware b/c.

Nope, works with all PS3 consoles that have b/c even if 50% of them glitch to death. In other words... if you can load a disc, it just works. Period.

This is not limited to PS3 consoles with GS and EE intact. And in fact, consoles with the supposed "software" emulation still had some substitute for GS and EE. They didn't take out hardware support entirely.

The claim that Sony removed software b/c to curb piracy is irrelevant.

Why? Cuz you thought only hardware b/c works? Then you should think back.

Hardware b/c, on the other hand, was removed in favor of software b/c to lower manufacturing costs. (so Sony doesn't lose as much money for every PS3 sold.)

That, and then software b/c was discontinued in official firmwares (debug firmwares still have them) because if they kept it in (and it's almost perfect at this point, by the way), mass modding would happen. At least thousands of PS3s would get modded.

Not to mention the price cut was not much (because they still put in some substitute hardwares). They just wanted to slowly move to a complete software solution. If only the PS2 backup exploit was not found.

The fact that PS2 game piracy is somewhat curbed is not the main reason for Sony's decision to remove b/c altogether. It's as said: financial reasons.

And financial reasons are because of piracy. Ack... are you telling me pirates don't "steal"?

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