Crytek, Epic lost billions of dollars because of piracy.

[Cid Highwind]

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

i guess the solution is having the games on Steam or something similar, that you must log-on in order to play the game.

i don't like it, but its better than not having PC games period.

So instead of having the now already criticized indiviual key and server checks, you'll want to activate everything through Steam? This makes it even more dodgy than the Mass Effect situation, since you're tieing yourself to Valve's system. People without internet connections are still unable to play the game, and personally I'd rather have the Mass Effect method than Steam, since that would require another application to run, rather than just one protocol wrapped into an executable.

[cottonvibes]

Originally Posted by Cid Highwind

So instead of having the now already criticized indiviual key and server checks, you'll want to activate everything through Steam? This makes it even more dodgy than the Mass Effect situation, since you're tieing yourself to Valve's system. People without internet connections are still unable to play the game, and personally I'd rather have the Mass Effect method than Steam, since that would require another application to run, rather than just one protocol wrapped into an executable.

its better than nothing.
since we were talking about how developers might stop making PC exclusive games, the other option is that we just don't have PC games period.

I rather have PC games that require activation, than no PC games at all.

and who dosn't have an internet connect nowadays?

if you don't have an internet connection, then most-likely you don't have a PC strong enough to run the latest games anyways.

obviously its a pain in the ass to have to be online everytime you want to play; but it beats not having PC games at all...

[Xelbair]

Well bout pirating steam games - its just like others - I know from expirience because its imposible to get some games in my country(you cant transfer money to paypal account from poland -.-)garry's mode for example , just unpack it/instal and run.

[StriderVM]

Nope. I think it's impossible NOT to have PC games. Can any publisher resist the fact that the PC is just about to be found anywhere these days?

[Thanakil]

Originally Posted by StriderVM

Nope. I think it's impossible NOT to have PC games. Can any publisher resist the fact that the PC is just about to be found anywhere these days?

Yes they easily can, considering that having a PC is not enough. You need a PC that can run the game smoothly, which is NOT to be found anywhere.

That's why we can easily see indie games prospering, considering that most of them are made so they can run on a wide range of hardware, low to high.

But you couldn't run a port of MGS4 on a low-end PC, which is the most common/the one you'd find "anywhere". So resisting the PC is already that much easier. The best way to reach the PC that you can find "anywhere" is to make games without very intensive gfx, in which case consoles wouldn't even be a real choice (except for Arcade/PSN/Wii-ware thingies) so you're not resisting to go on PC anymore, you just uses what is pretty much the only choice.

You wouldn't exactly make a "Diner dash" or "Lost villager" (or hell, pebble deluxe) as a main/major game on a home console, it would be ridiculous. As a downloadable game for the console yeah, but as a real game, not really.


And then when it comes to Consoles->PC port you have the big problem of the ports sometime being very horribly done as far as optimization goes (Halo being the biggest example of it), meaning that not only you need a good PC, but then you need a even better one to simply break the 25-30fps barrier.
And you have PC gamers often thinking of PC games as NEEDING to look good. "We have top-of-the-range hardware, make games for it!".
(hardcore gamers are harder to please than a girlfriend asking to buy new shoes every week)

So when it comes to PC, not only do you need to optimize the game for it, often overhaul it a little to make PC gamers happy, but you have to make sure your game can run on a wide range of hardware, which can be a pain. And then you don't always know if the game will sell a lot, as it's entirely possible that a lot of the potential customers already bought the game once when it was on console. Especially if it was already multiplatform (example 360/PS3).

It's a lot easier to simply make the game multiplatform on consoles, then bringing it to PC (except possible in a 360->PC cases, dunno about that).
With a console to console port tho, you don't need to support many different combination of hardware, you always have the same. You don't need to worry about "how many people will be able to run it fine?" since you already know the park of the console. It's usually easier, quite simply.

With PC, it's somewhat more like throwing a dart in the dark, you're not sure what the result will be, especially if it was already released on console, you have no idea how many potential customers are left. Even with a very popular game on consoles, you may end up with almost nothing when coming to PC (like MGS has shown).

But Indie gaming on PC will live forever. You can make a 16bits game and people will love the nostalgic feeling of it .

[Paratech]

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

its better than nothing.
since we were talking about how developers might stop making PC exclusive games, the other option is that we just don't have PC games period.

I rather have PC games that require activation, than no PC games at all.

and who dosn't have an internet connect nowadays?

if you don't have an internet connection, then most-likely you don't have a PC strong enough to run the latest games anyways.

obviously its a pain in the ass to have to be online everytime you want to play; but it beats not having PC games at all...

Not everyone has a BROADBAND Internet connection, and there are people in the sticks in the US who have crappy/no Internet access but have good PCs.

It depends on where you live! I know there are places ~15 miles away from where I live that have crappy Internet access, and where I live broadband requires a 1 to 2 year contract.

In the US, the phone companies don't have to provide good connections in small cities. So yes, you can have a good computer but crappy phone lines and therefore poor or no Internet service.

[StriderVM]

Thanakil :

Hehe, I was actually thinking the same thing, I just didn't mention it. Yep, indie games will not disappear on the PC due to the simple fact that they want to create games.

Anyway, back on topic. I just prefer even Starforce to this thing. I mean what's the point of all of this? Starforce also tries to detect the original copy, this also does the same thing. Why complicate matters?

[Thanakil]

Starforce would often screw other things on the PC tho. It invaded more of the PC then was necessary, which would sometime create conflicts with other things, that was the main problem with Starforce for me. Even other game developers complained about SF for similar reasons.

[mudlord]

Anyway, back on topic. I just prefer even Starforce to this thing.

...You got to be kidding me.

Plus Starforce is hardly a deterrent for hardcore release groups

Take a look there. Hybrid, a eons old group (I recall they even released Return Fire back in around 1995/1996), managed to RE the latest version of Starforce. Now then, I really think Starforce shouldn't be dealt with, considering the problems it causes. Plus, for the extremely experienced warez groups, it doesn't offer that much of a challenge. I daresay Tages is even worse, because it is COMPILED into the host program, rather than being like Securom/Starforce, where it is simply a wrapper in most cases. (SafeDisc and Starforce Elite can have the protection compiled in, too).

NOTE TO OTHER MODS: NForce is legal, its simply a database of scene release NFOs. NOT the actual releases.

[Paratech]

I hate Starforce, but yeah, most every Starforce game I own has been, uh, updated, yeah that's the ticket. I try to ensure that before buying any Starforced games!

[Spyhop]

DRM is not the answer. It has never deterred piracy, it never will.

A Stardock dev said it best in this article:
Piracy & PC Gaming » Forum Post by Draginol

Piracy & PC Gaming
By Draginol Posted March 10, 2008 20:48:46

Recently there has been a lot of talk about how piracy affects PC gaming. And if you listen to game developers, it apparently is a foregone conclusion - if a high quality PC game doesn't sell as many copies as it should, it must be because of piracy.

Now, I don't like piracy at all. It really bugs me when I see my game up on some torrent site just on the principle of the matter. And piracy certainly does cost sales. But arguing that piracy is the primary factor in lower sales of well made games? I don't think so. People who never buy software aren't lost sales.
Is it about business or glory?

Most people who know of Stardock in the gaming world think of it as a tiny indie shop. And we certainly are tiny in terms of game development. But in the desktop enhancement market, Stardock owns that market and it's a market with many millions of users. According to CNET, 6 of the top 10 most popular desktop enhancements are developed by Stardock. Our most popular desktop enhancement, WindowBlinds, has almost 14 million downloads just on Download.com. We have over a million registered users.

If you want to talk about piracy, talk about desktop enhancements. The piracy on that is huge. But the question isn't about piracy. It's about sales.

So here is the deal: When you develop for a market, you don't go by the user base. You go by the potential customer base. That's what most software companies do. They base what they want to create on the size of the market they're developing for. But not PC game developers.

PC game developers seem to focus more on the "cool" factor. What game can they make that will get them glory with the game magazines and gaming websites and hard core gamers? These days, it seems like game developers want to be like rock stars more than businessmen. I've never considered myself a real game developer. I'm a gamer who happens to know how to code and also happens to be reasonably good at business.

So when I make a game, I focus on making games that I think will be the most profitable. As a gamer, I like most games. I love Bioshock. I think the Orange Box is one of the best gaming deals ever. I love Company of Heroes and Oblivion was captivating. My two favorite games of all time are Civilization (I, II, III, and IV) and Total Annihilation. And I won't even get into the hours lost in WoW. Heck, I even like The Sims.

So when it comes time to make a game, I don't have a hard time thinking of a game I'd like to play. The hard part is coming up with a game that we can actually make that will be profitable. And that means looking at the market as a business not about trying to be "cool".
Making games for customers versus making games for users

So even though Galactic Civilizations II sold 300,000 copies making 8 digits in revenue on a budget of less than $1 million, it's still largely off the radar. I practically have to agree to mow editors lawns to get coverage. And you should see Jeff Green's (Games for Windows) yard. I still can't find my hedge trimmers.

Another game that has been off the radar until recently was Sins of a Solar Empire. With a small budget, it has already sold about 200,000 copies in the first month of release. It's the highest rated PC game of 2008 and probably the best selling 2008 PC title. Neither of these titles have CD copy protection.

And yet we don't get nearly the attention of other PC games. Lack of marketing on our part? We bang on the doors for coverage as next as the next shop. Lack of advertising? Open up your favorite PC game publication for the past few months and take note of all the 2 page spreads for Sins of a Solar Empire. So we certainly try.

But we still don't get the editorial buzz that some of the big name titles do because our genre isn't considered as "cool" as other genres. Imagine what our sales would be if our games had gotten game magazine covers and just massive editorial coverage like some of the big name games get. I don't want to suggest we get treated poorly by game magazine and web sites (not just because I fear them -- which I do), we got good preview coverage on Sins, just not the same level as one of the "mega" titles would get. Hard core gamers have different tastes in games than the mainstream PC gaming market of game buyers. Remember Roller Coaster Tycoon? Heck, how much buzz does The Sims get in terms of editorial when compared to its popularity. Those things just aren't that cool to the hard core gaming crowd that everything seems geared toward despite the fact that they're not the ones buying most of the games.

I won't even mention some of the big name PC titles that GalCiv and Sins have outsold. There's plenty of PC games that have gotten dedicated covers that haven't sold as well. So why is that?

Our games sell well for three reasons. First, they're good games which is a pre-requisite. But there's lots of great games that don't sell well.

The other two reasons are:

* Our games work on a very wide variety of hardware configurations.
* Our games target genres with the largest customer bases per cost to produce for.


We also don't make games targeting the Chinese market

When you make a game for a target market, you have to look at how many people will actually buy your game combined with how much it will cost to make a game for that target market. What good is a large number of users if they're not going to buy your game? And what good is a market where the minimal commitment to make a game for it is $10 million if the target audience isn't likely to pay for the game?

If the target demographic for your game is full of pirates who won't buy your game, then why support them? That's one of the things I have a hard time understanding. It's irrelevant how many people will play your game (if you're in the business of selling games that is). It's only relevant how many people are likely to buy your game.

Stardock doesn't make games targeting the Chinese market. If we spent $10 million on a PC game explicitly for the Chinese market and we lost our shirts, would you really feel that much sympathy for us? Or would you think "Duh."


You need a machine how fast?

Anyone who keeps track of how many PCs the "Gamer PC" vendors sell each year could tell you that it's insane to develop a game explicitly for hard core gamers. Insane. I think people would be shocked to find out how few hard core gamers there really are out there. This data is available. The number of high end graphics cards sold each year isn't a trade secret (in some cases you may have to get an NDA but if you're a partner you can find out). So why are companies making games that require them to sell to 15% of a given market to be profitable? In what other market do companies do that? In other software markets, getting 1% of the target market is considered good. If you need to sell 500,000 of your game to break even and your game requires Pixel Shader 3 to not look like crap or play like crap, do you you really think that there are 50 MILLION PC users with Pixel Shader 3 capable machines who a) play games and b) will actually buy your game if a pirated version is available?

In our case, we make games that target the widest possible audience as long as as we can still deliver the gaming experience we set out to. Anyone who's looked at the graphics in Sins of a Solar Empire would, I think, agree that the graphics are pretty phenomenal (particularly space battles). But could they be even fancier? Sure. But only if we degraded the gaming experience for the largest chunk of people who buy games.


The problem with blaming piracy

I don't want anyone to walk away from this article thinking I am poo-pooing the effect of piracy. I'm not. I definitely feel for game developers who want to make kick ass PC games who see their efforts diminished by a bunch of greedy pirates. I just don't count pirates in the first place. If you're a pirate, you don't get a vote on what gets made -- or you shouldn't if the company in question is trying to make a profit.

The reason why we don't put CD copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count. We know our customers could pirate our games if they want but choose to support our efforts. So we return the favor - we make the games they want and deliver them how they want it. This is also known as operating like every other industry outside the PC game industry.

One of the jokes I've seen in the desktop enhancement market is how "ugly" WindowBlinds skins are (though there are plenty of awesome ones too). But the thing is, the people who buy WindowBlinds tend to like a different style of skin than the people who would never buy it in the first place. Natural selection, so to speak, over many years has created a number of styles that seem to be unique to people who actually buy WindowBlinds. That's the problem with piracy. What gets made targets people who buy it, not the people who would never buy it in the first place. When someone complains about "fat borders" on some popular WindowBlinds skin my question is always "Would you buy WindowBlinds even if there was a perfect skin for you?" and the answer is inevitably "Probably not". That's how it works in every market -- the people who buy stuff call the shots. Only in the PC game market are the people who pirate stuff still getting the overwhelming percentage of development resources and editorial support.

When you blame piracy for disappointing sales, you tend to tar the entire market with a broad brush. Piracy isn't evenly distributed in the PC gaming market. And there are far more effective ways of getting people who might buy your product to buy it without inconveniencing them.

Blaming piracy is easy. But it hides other underlying causes. When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue.

In the end, the pirates hurt themselves. PC game developers will either slowly migrate to making games that cater to the people who buy PC games or they'll move to platforms where people are more inclined to buy games.

In the meantime, if you want to make profitable PC games, I'd recommend focusing more effort on satisfying the people willing to spend money on your product and less effort on making what others perceive as hot. But then again, I don't romanticize PC game development. I just want to play cool games and make a profit on games that I work on.

[Paratech]

I'll probably buy Sins of a Solar Empire. It sounds like a fun game.

I have to pick up Mass Effect at the end of the month, and I still want to buy Hellgate London, and Neverwinter Nights 2 Gold.

Of course I need a new hard drive to store and play these games!

[Squall-Leonhart]

i cracked my bought copy of Blitzkrieg 2 the moment i installed it. Like hell im risking installing starforce.