MAME drama: Haze leaving

[Super Nest]

Originally Posted by smf

MAME gets alot of critisism because it's fashionable & some because we don't implement every thing the users want.

What we see as worth supporting or not changes over time. Hiscore.dat got removed because even though everyone was told on mametesters that they shouldn't submit a bug report if they used it, there were a large number of people who kept "forgetting" and would submit bug reports that were specifically caused by it.

Overclocking/underclocking is there so users can try more correct cpu speeds without having to recompile and then feed back if they improve the emulation. If enough bugs were caused by it then I imagine it would get the boot too.

Cheating & save states are useful for testing.

Artwork is about preservation.

Scanlines is about trying to make it look more accurate on modern monitors. It's arguable whether the result is worthwhile.

Optimisations are always nice as they allow us to test games without having to wait for days for each screen refresh. Where speedups are proven to cause accuracy issues then they are removed (like in st-v).

For something to be added to MAME, you first need someone to care about doing it. Then they need to do it, then they need to get it passed other people on the MAME team. Sometimes ideas are abandoned, other times they are improved and expanded upon. But on most technical issues, what the users will think is generally not considered. Just take it as a side effect if it looks like we do.

Yes, It's true that some things like the Highscore were removed because it caused a lot of bugs. I agree that if an option is causing bugs that makes emulation more confusing it's better to remove them. No problem.

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[smf]

Originally Posted by mamefan

isn't a developer entitled to do things thier own way, if they feel like it?

Yes & I don't believe someone posting on a message board that hacks are bad, has ever infringed on that right.

But why single out members of the MAME team, why not anyone who asks for feature changes to an emulator? Because it's all the same thing.

Originally Posted by mamefan

That said, I agree that this is a actually a good thing with Haze leaving. It just shows that a wakeup call is needed. A huge one.

I think thats a bit melodramatic. Nothing will change, some people will still hate MAME no matter what we do. So how things are done will not change dramatically because there is no real need to & it will only harm what we do.

Guru will still moan every time a dump turns up the minute a board has been bought and delivered. If you troll on mameworld about how emulator x is better then we will still say why we aren't going to code it the same way.

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

From the info discussed in this thread, it seems that a few mame devs are the arrogant/elitist type coders that give the rest of the devs a bad rep.

Anyone who is passionate about what they do will appear that way sometimes. As long as the discussion is purely about the technical merits then that is fine. Because neither side learns much without debating things like that. Coding in a vacuum is the worse thing you can ever do.

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Last edited by smf; May 22nd, 2009 at 16:25.

[PsyMan]

Originally Posted by shashClp

I've read several MAME developers trash talking and insulting a certain Dreamcast emulator coder, just for the sake that he implemented stuff that was also on MAME.

How about being a bit more specific on this particular matter? As to who, when and why.

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[shashClp]

PsyMan: Just google it :P I'm not going to point who specifically said what.

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[Zack]

Originally Posted by smf

MAME gets alot of critisism because it's fashionable & some because we don't implement every thing the users want.

What we see as worth supporting or not changes over time. Hiscore.dat got removed because even though everyone was told on mametesters that they shouldn't submit a bug report if they used it, there were a large number of people who kept "forgetting" and would submit bug reports that were specifically caused by it.

Overclocking/underclocking is there so users can try more correct cpu speeds without having to recompile and then feed back if they improve the emulation. If enough bugs were caused by it then I imagine it would get the boot too.

Cheating & save states are useful for testing.

Artwork is about preservation.

Scanlines is about trying to make it look more accurate on modern monitors. It's arguable whether the result is worthwhile.

Optimisations are always nice as they allow us to test games without having to wait for days for each screen refresh. Where speedups are proven to cause accuracy issues then they are removed (like in st-v).

For something to be added to MAME, you first need someone to care about doing it. Then they need to do it, then they need to get it passed other people on the MAME team. Sometimes ideas are abandoned, other times they are improved and expanded upon. But on most technical issues, what the users will think is generally not considered. Just take it as a side effect if it looks like we do.

Just a question. (this isn't meant as an insult in any way)

Rather than take the "Giving up" approach of just removing something if it doesn't work, why not keep at it until it works right?

I know some things may just never work as intended and maybe even be impossible to incorporate into your current system, however, I highly doubt that rule applys to everything though.

I know that sounded like an insult but it was the only way I could describe it while keeping my point.

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[smf]

Originally Posted by Zack

Rather than take the "Giving up" approach of just removing something if it doesn't work, why not keep at it until it works right?

The original hiscore.dat wasn't something that the MAME Team maintained, we effectively just provided the hooks. Auto state saving was supposed to replace it. Anyone who wishes to start coding for MAME is usually pointed to adding save states to a driver.

[cottonvibes]

Originally Posted by smf

Coding in a vacuum is the worse thing you can ever do.

that's why elitist coders are the worst.
they think they're always right, and don't care what other people say (coding in a vacuum).
furthermore instead of being helpful, they bash other people that don't agree with them (so no point talking to them).

that's why i can't stand working with people like that.

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[smf]

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

that's why elitist coders are the worst.
they think they're always right, and don't care what other people say (coding in a vacuum).
furthermore instead of being helpful, they bash other people that don't agree with them (so no point talking to them).

that's why i can't stand working with people like that.

Some of the best programmers are socially inept. Why would you give up a chance to learn from them, just because they do something you don't like. It sounds hypocritical to me. They bash you because your code isn't up to scratch, but you bash them because they aren't super nice to you. Learning how to deal with people like this is also a good skill to have.

I agree that someone who is in idiot that tells you your code is wrong is pointless, but the problem here is that they are an idiot. These are the people to avoid.

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i'd rather learn from a decent coder with a good personality, then a great coder who acts like an arse.

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[smf]

Originally Posted by Squall-Leonhart

i'd rather learn from a decent coder with a good personality, then a great coder who acts like an arse.

Accepting critisism when you're doing something wrong is the first thing any programmer should learn. Unfortunately they don't teach that in university.

If you're always ending up in arguments, then remember it takes two to argue.

If you don't have peer review and never have to justify your reasons for doing something a certain way then I fear for your codebase.

[cottonvibes]

Originally Posted by smf

Some of the best programmers are socially inept. Why would you give up a chance to learn from them, just because they do something you don't like. It sounds hypocritical to me. They bash you because your code isn't up to scratch, but you bash them because they aren't super nice to you. Learning how to deal with people like this is also a good skill to have.

socially inept has nothing to do with this.
I was talking about elitist and arrogant coders; not people that have problems socializing.

i'm starting to see what you meant by "It's very easy to take one converstation out of context" with your posts

and there's no reason to "learn from" elitist/arrogant coders. There's plenty of nice/friendly great coders around that are willing to share their knowledge.
and in my experience, the friendlier guys are usually better coders (which makes sense if you think about it).

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[Squall-Leonhart]

Originally Posted by smf

Accepting critisism when you're doing something wrong is the first thing any programmer should learn. Unfortunately they don't teach that in university.

If you're always ending up in arguments, then remember it takes two to argue.

If you don't have peer review and never have to justify your reasons for doing something a certain way then I fear for your codebase.

i wouldn't accept code review from an *******. destructive critism is more damaging to a persons experience and wanting to learn to code, then from someone who exercises constructive criticism.

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

and there's no reason to "learn from" elitist/arrogant coders. There's plenty of nice/friendly great coders around that are willing to share their knowledge.
and in my experience, the friendlier guys are usually better coders (which makes sense if you think about it).

Seconded, thirded and tenthed.

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---

Last edited by Squall-Leonhart; May 23rd, 2009 at 13:02. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[cottonvibes]

Originally Posted by smf

Accepting critisism when you're doing something wrong is the first thing any programmer should learn. Unfortunately they don't teach that in university.

If you're always ending up in arguments, then remember it takes two to argue.

how about when you're right, and the person always accuses you of being wrong?
then you have to prove you're right all the time, and you're just wasting time explaining to someone who's so arrogant that they think they're always right.

happened to me with this guy who wanted to "help me" code something.
i ended up wasting so much coding time explaining why my ideas would work to him cuz he didn't believe me cuz of his arrogance.

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[smf]

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

socially inept has nothing to do with this.
I was talking about elitist and arrogant coders; not people that have problems socializing.

How someone delivers the message has everything to do with their social skills. How someone interracts with you also is very much related to how you interract with them.

Someone you see as arrogant might be questioning you to find out what you did and get you to justify your reasons, so both of you can learn. If you see this as a threat and argue they will argue back.

If you don't understand this, then you'll ultimately limit your career.

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

how about when you're right, and the person always accuses you of being wrong?
then you have to prove you're right all the time, and you're just wasting time explaining to someone who's so arrogant that they think they're always right.

happened to me with this guy who wanted to "help me" code something.
i ended up wasting so much coding time explaining why my ideas would work to him cuz he didn't believe me cuz of his arrogance.

Yeah, been there and done that. This was my point earlier. Idiots are an issue, unfortunately that makes you the elitist arrogant one. Because you are now assuming that you were always right and he is always wrong.

If you want to be a good programmer then you always want to do things the best way ( some people don't care and will just hack any crap together, they are a lost cause ). You can learn from your own mistakes, but that takes longer. If you see some code written different to how you would do it then you can ask why they wrote it like that & explain why you would have written it differently. How the person reacts to these types of questions is very telling as to what kind of programmer they are and want to be.

This could be what he was trying to do & apart from getting upset you actually taught him things. It took longer for you, but you might have helped him out. If he didn't learn anything then it was a waste of time.

The act of discussing these things isn't wrong, it's what you come away with thats important.

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Last edited by smf; May 23rd, 2009 at 13:20.

[cottonvibes]

Originally Posted by smf

Someone you see as arrogant might be questioning you to find out what you did and get you to justify your reasons, so both of you can learn. If you see this as a threat and argue they will argue back.

how does justifying myself help me learn?
in the above example i told you about, i felt like i helped the other guy learn a lot; but i didn't learn a thing.
(which is why i eventually blocked contact with him, and coded the thing myself without the 'troll' bothering me)

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[horseduck]

so how much is guru's rom collection worth? he dumps the games then what sells them on for a quick profit or????

i heard he has all roms in storage after being dumped and donation money is used on various things not emulation only?

can some one clear this up?

[mamefan]

If you want to be a good programmer then you always want to do things the best way ( some people don't care and will just hack any crap together, they are a lost cause ).

And remember, theres also good people that if they make a mess, they do try to fix it. Isn't that also a lost cause, or people must always get things right first?

so how much is guru's rom collection worth? he dumps the games then what sells them on for a quick profit or????

If he sells on those boards.....wow....I thought the original hardware has to kept to make the dumps legal :P

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Last edited by mamefan; May 23rd, 2009 at 13:26. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[smf]

Originally Posted by cottonvibes

how does justifying myself help me learn?
in the above example i told you about, i felt like i helped the other guy learn a lot; but i didn't learn a thing.
(which is why i eventually blocked contact with him, and coded the thing myself without the 'troll' bothering me)

I can't tell you what you learnt. I don't know what you knew before and what you knew after. If you didn't pay attention then you might not have learnt anything.

If you're working with someone like that, then the fact they aren't screwing up so much is usually a start. As I said before questioning you isn't the issue here, it's working out whether they know what they are talking about or not.

If you do find yourself working with an idiot, then you can't just shut him out or you'll be the elitist arrogant programmer who can't get along with anyone. Companies like idiots because they are cheap, plus they don't like to admit they hired an idiot so they don't get rid of them.

We often have discussions at work & I find that it helps me think about the problem more, no matter how heated the debates get. Solving any complex problem is going to involve alot more thinking than typing.

I'm not arrogant to think that I have always come up with the best way of doing something. I'm going to have to support the code for many years and every decision is going to impact on how the code can be changed in the future, so it needs to be done in the best way. Even people who have never had a good idea in their life will sometimes suprise you.

With deadlines approaching it's often tempting to just get your head down and knock lines of code out. However you can easily make up for that by coming up with a better design.

It can be easier if you seek out your peers ideas up front, then it is less of a competition. However if they challenge you later then it could save you from making a big mistake, or it could help them learn ( and you'll be the nice guy ). If the guy goes to your manager and says that whenever they try to talk to you about design then you abust them, then you're the one thats going to get the bad name.

Originally Posted by mamefan

And remember, theres also good people that if they make a mess, they do try to fix it. Isn't that also a lost cause, or people must always get things right first?

When you're deploying software to a couple of thousand users who start work at 4am in the morning, they do prefer it if it works right first time. The guy you think is arrogant is probably the one that gets the hassle when it all goes wrong.

You can normally tell from someones code whether they understand the problem they are trying to solve. If when you can tell that they don't, then I'll risk being branded arrogant if it saves the companies reputation.

Originally Posted by horseduck

so how much is guru's rom collection worth? he dumps the games then what sells them on for a quick profit or????

i heard he has all roms in storage after being dumped and donation money is used on various things not emulation only?

can some one clear this up?

The MAME Team isn't involved in buying or dumping any roms. Guru and others organise that themselves.

There were some ebay auctions a while back, Guru didn't have time to do it himself. I have no idea how many boards got sold, I assume there are alot left.
I know there is also a backlog of things that haven't been dumped.
I believe Guru pays any storage costs himself.

I don't believe the public donations even cover what is bought, let alone storage & shipping.

It's worth what people are prepared to pay. Although some games aren't worth putting back together and selling, so they will probably be scrapped.

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Last edited by smf; May 23rd, 2009 at 14:15.

[Paratech]

Add to that once dumped the games lose their value. Once games can be played in MAME, the original PCBs often drop dramatically in price.

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