MAME drama: Haze leaving

[Super Nest]

Originally Posted by Squall-Leonhart

Clearly you have failed at reading. Clearly.

Yep, you're right.
Anyway I think a lot of mamedevs like to behave as jerks in internet (as happens with pretty much everybody) but listen to user requests more than they say. As I said I don't really have big problems playing the majority of MAME games. I even have a new monitor with supports TATE mode and I can enjoy shumps now more thanks to the rotate option mamedevs added time ago.

I understand some complaints of people and there's a lot of things I don't like myself, but I can't accept opinions of MAME not being user-friendyl because I really don't find many emulators with so many video options, overclocking, cheat options, use of artwork, scanlines, etc. I mean there's A LOT of options for users to try to get the best gaming experience. Not even official compilations have so many possibilities.

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Last edited by Super Nest; May 21st, 2009 at 15:31..

[RockmanForte]

Oh boy....

Talking behind people's back shows a very cheap character trait. Beware of these kinds of people. If they trash talk to you about others I am sure they will talk the same about you to someone else. The best thing that usually stops them is to embarrass them in front of the person they are trash talking.

You can't ? Then let it go!

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[Squall-Leonhart]

agreed Rockman, backstabbing emuscene politics is ruining it all.

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[RockmanForte]

LOL, indeed!

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[mamefan]

Originally Posted by RockmanForte

Oh boy....

Talking behind people's back shows a very cheap character trait. Beware of these kinds of people. If they trash talk to you about others I am sure they will talk the same about you to someone else. The best thing that usually stops them is to embarrass them in front of the person they are trash talking.

You can't ? Then let it go!

So? You can't deny some MAMEdevs trash talk other people because of how they do things and trash talking emulators that are not thier own!

They should be held accountable!

Are you that obtuse, to let off MAMEDev because of this?

Originally Posted by Squall-Leonhart

agreed Rockman, backstabbing emuscene politics is ruining it all.

That sums up all the anger towards MAMEdev in one post. Bravo!

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Last edited by mamefan; May 21st, 2009 at 23:27.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

[smf]

Originally Posted by mamefan

And personally, who would want to work on a project that is so morally corrupt?

Ironically it's good intentions and morals that have kept MAME going for so long. You can always paint people in a bad light if you take things out of context.

[mamefan]

Originally Posted by smf

Ironically it's good intentions and morals that have kept MAME going for so long. You can always paint people in a bad light if you take things out of context.

I have to agree. But also, consider what outside developers see also, especially when they are flamed by MAMEdevs for doing things differently.

[smf]

Originally Posted by Super Nest

I understand some complaints of people and there's a lot of things I don't like myself, but I can't accept opinions of MAME not being user-friendyl because I really don't find many emulators with so many video options, overclocking, cheat options, use of artwork, scanlines, etc. I mean there's A LOT of options for users to try to get the best gaming experience.

MAME gets alot of critisism because it's fashionable & some because we don't implement every thing the users want.

What we see as worth supporting or not changes over time. Hiscore.dat got removed because even though everyone was told on mametesters that they shouldn't submit a bug report if they used it, there were a large number of people who kept "forgetting" and would submit bug reports that were specifically caused by it.

Overclocking/underclocking is there so users can try more correct cpu speeds without having to recompile and then feed back if they improve the emulation. If enough bugs were caused by it then I imagine it would get the boot too.

Cheating & save states are useful for testing.

Artwork is about preservation.

Scanlines is about trying to make it look more accurate on modern monitors. It's arguable whether the result is worthwhile.

Optimisations are always nice as they allow us to test games without having to wait for days for each screen refresh. Where speedups are proven to cause accuracy issues then they are removed (like in st-v).

For something to be added to MAME, you first need someone to care about doing it. Then they need to do it, then they need to get it passed other people on the MAME team. Sometimes ideas are abandoned, other times they are improved and expanded upon. But on most technical issues, what the users will think is generally not considered. Just take it as a side effect if it looks like we do.

[mamefan]

Optimisations are always nice as they allow us to test games without having to wait for days for each screen refresh. Where speedups are proven to cause accuracy issues then they are removed (like in st-v).

Nice to hear that. Reminds me of Nestopia or QuickNES. They take cycle accuracy well, as well as being very fast and playable. Though the people who code those emus (blargg and Marty) are extremely skilled.

[smf]

Originally Posted by mamefan

I have to agree. But also, consider what outside developers see also, especially when they are flamed by MAMEdevs for doing things differently.

When I hang out on irc, I mainly visit a channel that is dedicated to a non mame emulator. There is a mix of mame & other emulator developers. Technical issues get discussed without major drama.

I can't think of anyone ever getting flamed for doing something differently, if their method produces a worse experience then that might get pointed out. If someone repeatedly doesn't get why we aren't going to make MAME work that way, then taking comments out of context might look like flaming I guess. When people set out to get upset about something, it's very hard to stop them.

Originally Posted by mamefan

Nice to hear that. Reminds me of Nestopia or QuickNES. They take cycle accuracy well, as well as being very fast and playable. Though the people who code those emus (blargg and Marty) are extremely skilled.

I've never run blargg's stuff, I never got into early nintendo games. But from his posts it does appear that his reverse engineering skills are good. We've actually approached a level of accuracy that is beyond that which MAME normally requires. Programmers have generally used much less trickery on arcade games than console games. I have a nagging feeling that he and aaron worked on some things.

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Last edited by smf; May 22nd, 2009 at 01:34..

[italie]

FYI that 'italian' guy started mame as a thesis on reverse engineering hardware. It's a decent read if you can get past the iffy translation. mame was never intended to be about the users, not ever.

And for anyone wanting 200 fps neo geo pokerom niomi goodness...write your own hacks. The source is there for the tweaking. If you think it's possible, do it.



btw, Hi Paratech....we've missed you sweetheart.

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Last edited by italie; May 22nd, 2009 at 01:41.. Reason: sending a shot out to my peeps.

[mamefan]

I can't think of anyone ever getting flamed for doing something differently, if their method produces a worse experience then that might get pointed out.

I recall mudlord getting flamed by MooglyGuy for LLE N64 video emulation versus HLE based emulation. In most games, it gives the same result, but the author was flamed because simply HLE is different, and that mudlord enjoys reverse engineering software (such as N64 video ucodes, and making a GPU based RDP implementation) as well as hardware . I would have thought there is really no right or wrong approach to emulation.

I've never run blargg's stuff, I never got into early nintendo games. But from his posts it does appear that his reverse engineering skills are good. We've actually approached a level of accuracy that is beyond that which MAME normally requires. Programmers have generally used much less trickery on arcade games than console games. I have a nagging feeling that he and aaron worked on some things.

His experience in C++ is quite good too. Very good. He seems to know the C++ standards like the back of his hand, when I talk to him. And plus, his RE skills. Take his most recent work regarding the SNES SPC700/DSP for instance: cycle accurate, yet very optimized.

[smf]

Originally Posted by italie

FYI that 'italian' guy started mame as a thesis on reverse engineering hardware. It's a decent read if you can get past the iffy translation. mame was never intended to be about the users, not ever.

Nicola started MAME years before he wrote that thesis.

Originally Posted by mamefan

I recall mudlord getting flamed by MooglyGuy for LLE N64 video emulation versus HLE based emulation. In most games, it gives the same result, but the author was flamed because simply HLE is different

As soon as you say "in most games" you lose the technical argument. I assume when you say "it gives the same result", you mean it lets you play the game. I wouldn't flame someone for it, but I'd not recommend anyone spend time on something that in a few years will be irrelevant. Sometimes HLE is unavoidable (eg when you don't have the code) other times it's more work for no gain.

I'd say that the biggest problem with n64 emulators has been the HLE of the ucode. You're entitled to disagree.

Of course there are right ways and wrong ways to write emulators, especially good ones & there is no point in sticking your head in the sand if you're going the wrong way about things.

[italie]

Originally Posted by smf

Nicola started MAME years before he wrote that thesis.

Wouldn't that be the idea? kinda hard to write a thesis about something that doesn't exist. But hell, you'd know better than I would, not going to argue.... (could have sworn I had read that paper in the late 90's...must have read it sometime in the '00s i guess.)

I'm still standing behind the whole ~not for users~ comment. Even if there was a time early on that the users input might have mattered even a smidge...anything pre .032 is dead to me.

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Last edited by italie; May 22nd, 2009 at 02:30..

[mamefan]

As soon as you say "in most games" you lose the technical argument. I assume when you say "it gives the same result", you mean it lets you play the game. I wouldn't flame someone for it, but I'd not recommend anyone spend time on something that in a few years will be irrelevant. Sometimes HLE is unavoidable (eg when you don't have the code) other times it's more work for no gain.

I'd say that the biggest problem with n64 emulators has been the HLE of the ucode. You're entitled to disagree.

Ah, so you are flaming him too now. Congratulations. >.>
So what if mudlord wants to HLE? Is it your issue?

[shashClp]

Originally Posted by smf

(...)

I can't think of anyone ever getting flamed for doing something differently, if their method produces a worse experience then that might get pointed out. If someone repeatedly doesn't get why we aren't going to make MAME work that way, then taking comments out of context might look like flaming I guess. When people set out to get upset about something, it's very hard to stop them.

(...)

I've read several MAME developers trash talking and insulting a certain Dreamcast emulator coder, just for the sake that he implemented stuff that was also on MAME. There's no way to see that out of context.

That some MAME developers are arrogant nazi alike persons, where if you don't do stuff their way, you shouldn't be doing (even if it doesn't even remotely relate to MAME, or MAME was only used as documentation), it's just one of the facts that I'm happy seeing the Haze stuff coming to light. I guess that the image here sums up what I think of people acting like that.

As a professional developer, if someone at my company acted like that, it would get fired in a matter of hours, so I don't really understand why anyone, in their free time and when working on something for fun has to keep hearing that kind of crap.

As a final note, let me tell anyone that I like the MAME project, but after seeing the kind of crap that some of the developers spread, I've stayed away from it as a user, and never looked back. It's not like I want to use or support something done by such people.

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[smf]

Originally Posted by mamefan

Ah, so you are flaming him too now. Congratulations. >.>
So what if mudlord wants to HLE? Is it your issue?

I think you misunderstand the word flaming. I put my opinion across which is based on real solid technical reasons. I'm entitled to my opinion as you are yours, I did it in a polite way & you less so.

Originally Posted by shashClp

I've read several MAME developers trash talking and insulting a certain Dreamcast emulator coder, just for the sake that he implemented stuff that was also on MAME. There's no way to see that out of context.

Pointing out that someone only made progress after reading how to do something in the MAME source isn't flaming, it's letting people know the truth.

There are certain people that mistake this and then see it as their purpose in life to make us look bad as a punishment. When they make enough of a nuisance of themselves, they'll probably get their chains yanked & a new wave of people will use that as their justification.

It's very easy to take one converstation out of context, for all you know the thread might have been the end of result of many discussions on the topic. If you want to be appalled as a bystander then feel free, but you don't necessarily know the whole story.

Originally Posted by shashClp

That some MAME developers are arrogant nazi alike persons, where if you don't do stuff their way, you shouldn't be doing (even if it doesn't even remotely relate to MAME, or MAME was only used as documentation), it's just one of the facts that I'm happy seeing the Haze stuff coming to light. I guess that the image here sums up what I think of people acting like that.

As a professional developer, if someone at my company acted like that, it would get fired in a matter of hours, so I don't really understand why anyone, in their free time and when working on something for fun has to keep hearing that kind of crap.

Sometimes people mistake knowing what you are talking about as arrogance, because from the outside it looks like the same thing. If someone asks your opinion and it appears that someone is wasting their time & you can back it up with evidence as to why, then that is a valid point & not arrogance.

What happened to Haze and his final blog post shouldn't make anyone happy. From the inside you see more in context and are able to make up your mind on what is really going on. People who then take potshots from the sidelines are only creating a problem out of something they never understood.

FWIW There are alot of real arrogant developers who manage to survive for years. It's often difficult to sack them for it.

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Last edited by smf; May 22nd, 2009 at 10:00..

[shashClp]

Originally Posted by smf

(...)
Pointing out that someone only made progress after reading how to do something in the MAME source isn't flaming, it's letting people know the truth.
(...)

And I agree with that. But one think is saying that he made progress due to MAME, and other insulting the developer because he used MAME information, as you may agree. In this case, was the latter, which I can't defend, and hope you don't.

Originally Posted by smf

Sometimes people mistake knowing what you are talking about as arrogance, because from the outside it looks like the same thing. There are alot of real arrogant developers who manage to survive for years. From the inside you see more in context and are able to make up your mind on what is really going on. I don't think anyone should be happy about what happened to Haze.

I know that, I've been told (and probably I am) arrogant, but at least I keep with my own business. For example, certain MAME developers are known stalk certain emulator projects and try to take down what they are not following the "only path to emulation".

Of course there are emulators with thousands of hacks, intended only to play, and others intended to be 100% accurate. I'm inclined to prefer the latter, even if they ask for 300% more resources, but I won't go the route of certain MAME developers to insult those that do speed oriented hacks. As an example, during the time I coded Desmume always preferred demanding more CPU than hacking stuff, and there were other emulators that took the other route, and didn't start to say they were crap just because they focused on speed over accuracy.

And sorry about saying that what happened to Haze makes me happy, I didn't express it well, I mean that it's just something meant to happen in that kind of environment. I guess I'll make my point more clear if I say that I'll be happy if this makes the situation change.

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[mamefan]

I think you misunderstand the word flaming. I put my opinion across which is based on real solid technical reasons. I'm entitled to my opinion as you are yours, I did it in a polite way & you less so.

While I agree there are technical reasons why LLE in N64 video emulation seems superior (no need to RE every single N64 video ucode), isn't a developer entitled to do things thier own way, if they feel like it? Thats what I am trying to get across. Trash talking then how a certain developer does it, just because they do things differently, is what I am getting at in regards to how some MAMEdevs treat others. Not to mention what Shashclp mentioned.

I hope that clears up where I stand in this. I didn't mean any disrespect towards you earlier and I admit its harsh how I acted, and I apologise. But to me, it doesn't seem remotely fair how some MAMEdevs seem to get away in trash talking about how people do things or in the case Shashclp describe.

Of course there are emulators with thousands of hacks, intended only to play, and others intended to be 100% accurate. I'm inclined to prefer the latter, even if they ask for 300% more resources, but I won't go the route of certain MAME developers to insult those that do speed oriented hacks. As an example, during the time I coded Desmume always preferred demanding more CPU than hacking stuff, and there were other emulators that took the other route, and didn't start to say they were crap just because they focused on speed over accuracy.

...And that is the whole issue. Some MAMEdevs insulting non devs for how they do things. I personally think, who gives really a rats ass about how someone does things. Sure, with the N64 case its sad, but there will be other people who do things how MAME consider the "accurate approach", namely MG and zilmar & Jabo with thier LLE video stuff in PJ64.

And really, who cares at the end of the day? Its making the coder happy coding the way they do, isn't that what matters?

That said, I agree that this is a actually a good thing with Haze leaving. It just shows that a wakeup call is needed. A huge one.

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Last edited by mamefan; May 22nd, 2009 at 10:17..

[cottonvibes]

From the info discussed in this thread, it seems that a few mame devs are the arrogant/elitist type coders that give the rest of the devs a bad rep.

Its really childish to think that just because 'some' devs on a team are a certain way, that everyone in the team is that way.
Anybody that thinks so has either not worked on a team before, or is ignorant.


Anyways, personally it seems like i wouldn't be able to stand working on the mame team if the complaints people have mentioned are true; i hate elitist coders.
Of course i don't know the whole situation; but multiple people seem to be saying the same story...

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