Your ideas on: governing systems

[Proto]

Well since people seem to have some headaches with the latest philosophy threads my next topic will be down to more practical grounds :p

First of all lets make sure there is no confusion. We will try to talk about governing system, not exactly economical system. So no, communism and capitalism aint governing systems :P

So you can choose between fascism, plutocracy and all the ---cracy stuff.

Ok now back to the topic

Nowdays it would seem that the world is living in a democracy. Wrong. Earth is now dominated currentl by a blatant plutocracy, that is, goverment of the merchants (of the rich/corporations in this case) All the important decisions in ths world are taken biases towards the interests of the rich countries, and behind the rich countries we have the rich industries. Very decision is taken to increase the profits of the mentioned, everything under the disguise of a neat, clean, but yet false democracy.

Yet, can we expect democracy to be able to really work on a socity as big as ours?

Well, now i want your thoughts on the ideal governing system :yawn:

/me shivers and wait for the inevitable...

[Andrew Hruska]

Oh no, not another discussion! We will all die from brain overloads and such!

The ideal governing system: Let super-advanced aged, wise humans and robots make a super-powerful, fair, governing system while we sit back and relax in our lazeboys. In other words: Just don't give a care?

[Kane]

I think a partial democracy (I don't really have the right words for this) where only those who have been in the armed services can vote. That way only people willing to die for thier country are allowed to have a say in the running of it.

[Andrew Hruska]

So, chickens that haven't been in the armed forces can't say of running it? This wouldn't exactly be fair, there are people who want to die for there country, but can't join the armed forces for lots of reasons.

[Proto]

Well Kane, although such system have many pros, such as people who really care for their country being able to take place in the decisions, such system would be easily corrupted. Actually such system already existed in the past (in my country, mexico, during the XVII century, only soldiers were permited to vote). Such a system leaves all the power in the army.

And what andy said was true. There are many people who are not allowed in the army (physically limited people among others) but who could have many good ideas.

Yet the system idea could be good. Only those who have actually made something for their country can participate (not just the army though).

[Andrew Hruska]

Now, how about this. We let smart, genious apes to control our world? :evil:

But on a *more serious* note..
We could have a more fair and equal system - all we need to do is eliminate the word "monopoly" from our world. We need more equality right now - so why not make some "poorer" people decide alot more then the monopolys/enterprises and companys like that? Right now it seems that all the companys are controlling us like ventriquist dummies. So somebody needs to fix that. We should control companys, or make them stop controlling us. Then something very good or very bad would happen. But who knows those?
Of course, this is coming from ME, a almost useless person. My thoughts should count and get cricitzed and stuff. So, what do you think about mine? :p

[destructicator]

your vote does not matter anyway.
the president-non-elect of the united states whom is currently making a mockery of democracy wasn't even elected by the majority of americans. who wants to participate in that kind of system?
the whole thing is screwed beyond repair.

[Andrew Hruska]

If our votes do not matter, then that's the first thing we should try to change.

[Strider]

i prefer a socialistic democracy with a tad bit of constitutional monarchy (they wont have any power, its just that if we had an emperor or something it would sound cool :p)

[DB7]

Dictatorship is by far the best form of Government out there, once an order is given its carried out, no me3ssing about with 2nd houses or courts.

The trouble is it's bloody impossible to find a benevolent Dictator.

[Proto]

Still, I say that a democracy is hardly suitable for a population that is way too big. A big population means too many different ideas, which means way too many arguments for every problem, which means little or null resolutions in the end :/

[Zapages]

A democratic Calphiate would be nice.

[op3n_skill]

Communism-dictatorship is the best way to go....

the only problem would be a great leader..
Someone like Chairman Mao/Lenin..
And anything but Fidel Castro...

[netghost2.0]

Communism-dictatorship is the best way to go....

the only problem would be a great leader..
Someone like Chairman Mao/Lenin..
And anything but Fidel Castro...

..................

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not since your statement is so ridiculously absurd. I suppose the millions of dead Chinese and Russians who died under the totalitarian regimes of Mao and Lenin would attest to their "great leadership abilities".

[_E_]

I would say democracy. But again, no one has been carrying out democracy the way its supposed to be, including the US. Its not just about voting, but about rights. Some people dont have equal rights with each othre IMO.

Yours,
-Elly

[op3n_skill]

I said "someone like", not "Another"....
comparing them to the emperors of china or stalin and the tzars..
They dont look "that" bad..... :D

[Quark]

A semi-democracy. Have some sort of testing mechanism to decide how politically smart people are. Then, based off that test, have their votes count for a certain percentage.

The problem comes in having a fair, non-corrupt test and/or testors. I see nothing wrong with giving idiots less chance to influence decisions.

[Proto]

Now i agree with that idea, yet, as you say, it would be diff to find non-biased testers. My best bet is to develope some reliable AI who could develop its own standards, according to human history, and who could apply the test in a fair way.

[Regulus]

I think tyhe USA's system is pretty good. yea, it has its flaws and some corruption, but you really cant have a perfect government......

[Exodus]

no known government works, you can only go by the idea behind it. they all have their advantages and disadvantages and sound nice, but it doesn't work because of all the corruption.

if anything, we should go back to the ancient greek democracy where the leaders only had a 1 year term, and with popular vote by the people, could be exiled for 10 years. ;)
exile rocks.

[Kidd]

The ideal government is a perfect dictator, yet finding a perfect dictator is a pretty impossible task... ^_~x

i prefer a socialistic democracy with a tad bit of constitutional monarchy (they wont have any power, its just that if we had an emperor or something it would sound cool :P)That's exactly matching with the Swedish system, aside from that we have a King and not an Emperor ^_~x (well, it'll be a Queen in like less than 25 years now, probably)

[INCA]

United States is more of a republic than democracy. Though Dicator ship will never work because one person can't control such are large nation. Also nothing perfect and government role is to keep the economy flourishing.

[Proto]

Still which would be the best governing system, if neither democracy nor dictatorship can work in a real large scale. Is it the goverment of an organized group, with common ideals and agenda? (a political party for example). Maybe a pseudo democracy like it was suggested, where you would elect the organization, rather than the person

[INCA]

Ah, i would still say democracy. Its the best even with corruption and poverty that goes on.

[Proto]

I still say so, but our democracy is so corrupted that its no longer a democracy. Its a plutocracy. Democracy is just the big disguise so that the average person stays calm thinking everything is ok

[Takmadeus]

In my opinion, the best government systems are those of the indigenans..... although most cultures lacked technological development, their goverment systems provided them of equality, justice and peace, plus, the ones on the power, were the most experienced ones (the elders back then) so they had more authority when takig a decision, thanks to the wisdom aquired through the years..... we actually could use such system right now, and, in companion of the current technology, create an envyable system, where everyone exists towards the sustainment of the society.... such a world would be admirable....

[Proto]

In my opinion, the best government systems are those of the indigenans..... although most cultures lacked technological development, their goverment systems provided them of equality, justice and peace, plus, the ones on the power, were the most experienced ones (the elders back then) so they had more authority when takig a decision, thanks to the wisdom aquired through the years..... we actually could use such system right now, and, in companion of the current technology, create an envyable system, where everyone exists towards the sustainment of the society.... such a world would be admirable...

Yet again, the elder system would not be suitable for a society that changes so quickly. Although we are basically the same, we cannot be governed the same way as our grandparents would have been governed themselves. My father summed it pretty well once he was taking an actualization course and told me:

"What I learned at the uni is now being taught as historical precedents"

[Takmadeus]

hmmmmm but I am not talking about experience as a scientific fact, in facty, newer minds would be more suitable to rule if the society was based on a scientific legacy...... in social terms, experience is better, as it allows to have a wider view on things; unfortunately society changes as trends do, and that should be kept under control..... reckless development is the second step to selfdestruction

[JanusX]

I agree with those in favor of a Dictatorship. If it was possible to have a benvolent dictator, then changes would be made almost instantly, or at least as quickly as he/she could make decisions. The governments sole authorities would be protecting the country, and enoforcing laws to protect peoples rights.

[elty]

Anything that does not have Bush (big or small) in it
Anything that does not have communist in it
ANything that does not have Hitler (insert other tryanny here) in it

those will be probably good.

[KillerShots]

So long as I'm in charge, it's good :D

[Proto]

Anything that does not have communist in it


Now thats doesnt something I agree with, at least partially. Firstly, communism is quite a good economical system, in theory, just as good as capitalism is, and better if we talk in group terms. It´s its implementation that has been wrong, since no country in the world has been able to fully use it. But so goes for capitalism. It has degenerated in economical war.

[Kidd]

I agree, communism is a great system. Actually, it's not only great, it's the perfect system. We're not perfect enough to make it work though, which is why the communism countries has been.. like they have been... if we were more like today's AI communism would be the best ^_^x;

[Takmadeus]

I also agree with kidd...... unfortunately, the implementation of comunism was done in certain "terms" that made it unconveient to the people, anyway..... it is known that comunism is the next step in social evolution, preceeded by capitalism, meaning that a more advanced (not perfect) social system has to apply comunism in its society....

[Kane]

Now thats doesnt something I agree with, at least partially. Firstly, communism is quite a good economical system, in theory, just as good as capitalism is, and better if we talk in group terms. It´s its implementation that has been wrong, since no country in the world has been able to fully use it. But so goes for capitalism. It has degenerated in economical war.
Communism is an ideal state, but Humans simly aren't ethicly an moraly advanced enough to think about it yet.

[Takmadeus]

I've heard so more than one time, trust me; but it is not true.... humans can reach whatever they propose, while they propose... and for that something has to be done first, but unfortunately nobody does nothing.....

[Exodus]

sure, they can reach that state, but only if you kill the ones that don't. humanity will never be in a state of complete balance and understanding. just too many people with different ideals in the world. mass brainwashing (ala red alert 2) would work though.

[op3n_skill]

>>sure, they can reach that state, but only if you kill the ones that don't.

W/c is where a revoutionary communist's mind revolves...
"if you're not with us, then you're against us" :D

[Proto]

"if you're not with us, then you're against us"

Mind you thats not the essence of communism. Just the bad way communism has been implemented. And well, a non communist person whose name starts with G and ends with eorge Bush also thinks that way :p

[op3n_skill]

Note the smiley... ;)

But of course, people have the choice, to go to communism or not. they dont have to die....

and yeah, most misinterpreted communism. although i forgot the exact words (Brainwashing by the military), only thing i remember is about "dying for the cause until the last man" or "killing for the cause" or something.

[Exodus]

of course they dont have to die, they'll just be forced to move to another country. and if they can't afford to move, then they die. ;)

[Takmadeus]

hmmmm i guess my government system would not allow murder or kidnapping, but exile.... "if you cannot live within the rules of my house, then you are free to go somewhere else"... that would be more understandable, and less conflictive

[Exodus]

and what if they don't leave? force them? thats kind of like kidnapping. in a very loose sense of the word.

[Takmadeus]

think of it as your school.... if you don't like the rules of it, nobody is forcing you to stay in there.... then if you still want to stay in it, well, you know the rules...

[Exodus]

its a little different... theres other schools in the area without having to relocate... but to have to move out of a country? that takes money.

[Takmadeus]

which the government could pay with pleasure.... "we don't need party screwers", that would be the reason (j/k)

[op3n_skill]

the problem is that most people are sentimental, about their place, their friends and their families.

the problems that arise is if they dont want to leave their country.. or
if they dont want to leave their friends and families behind...

[Takmadeus]

I am not THAT unconsciosious.... I wold exiliate entire families.... so, then people would have to choose.... infracting (say murdering, robbing, etc) or staying peacefully in their country working for the good of the society, and being with their family and friends where they belong....

[op3n_skill]

If we'll ever give you the right to rule...

[Proto]

If we'll ever give you the right to rule..

Its not like hell ask you for permission :p

[op3n_skill]

of course he wont, i'm not yet legal to vote :D

[Takmadeus]

well... that's a point....

I am sure I would make a very good king... acoiding wars, fights or violence.... it would be like a big Canada, but without the language rivalry

[Exodus]

hmm... avoiding war entirely? so i suppose if another country were to attack you, you'd just submit and give up your leadership?

[Proto]

hmm... avoiding war entirely? so i suppose if another country were to attack you, you'd just submit and give up your leadership?

Hehehe...i think he mean there would be no countries... just the world.. nas he is his king :p

Still i think that big changes cannot be done by an individual alone, big changes happen because of macro political-economical-technological fluctuation. If you want a big change then another change must be propiciated. That is my so called plan for humanity. The next industrial revolution will i will help to propiciate will change humanity forever in a very radical way :evil:

[Unicron]

I think a partial democracy (I don't really have the right words for this) where only those who have been in the armed services can vote. That way only people willing to die for thier country are allowed to have a say in the running of it.

Thats not too bad...I have felt guily at times supporting the war full-knowing that it isnt my butt directly on the line...

[Narrrf]

think of it as your school.... if you don't like the rules of it, nobody is forcing you to stay in there.... then if you still want to stay in it, well, you know the rules...

but then what other country would take you in? even schools get fed up after a while. and this method seems very irresponsible to me. you are suggesting that we not deal with our problems and just ship them off for some other people to take care. this isn't well known but mexico for a whilesent it's felons over to the u.s. without telling us. that angers me. it would anger me even if we were told of this. we don't want them. who does? prison is ideal since we keep them here and are still responsible for them. but prisons are overcrowded. too bad. more prisons anyone?

Thats not too bad...I have felt guily at times supporting the war full-knowing that it isnt my butt directly on the line...

but as said before, it would shift the power of this country over to the military. there are more problems than the military knows how to deal with.

i'd rather face a socialist government. which gets rid of government as it is today. but we people need leadership too much. too bad it's in the hands of irresponsible people every now and then.

-later

[Proto]

Well the other solution is killing them or sending everyone to the moon. What i think is that getting rid of these people doesnt solves the deep problem, which is a society that doesntget along, that doesnt have common objectives. In sum, a society that is divided. Shiping out everyone that isnt against society will only lead to two things. Even more problems, because the main problem is still there, or slow social corruption and lethargation, because nothing happens and everything becomes static.

And about socialism... mm... IMO the change we need isnt in economics, but in a radical change of view of how humanity understands itself. Advanced AI that competes with us to an extent would provide that radical change that humanity needs.

[Kazuya]

Seinding them to the moon would be a good idea. Still in some countries like Mexico the goverment wont waste a single buck to get rid of someone. They prefer the terror way. It has been like this since we fought for the independe of Spain. The actual president seems very tolerant and has made posible to the press to say things against his movements and even have asked for a list where appears how has been used the money and he gave it. Its an advance at least to Mexico.

And Protoman, its a historical fact that if the humanity would start again since the begining of all times, as long as there is one single extra dish of food, or extra shirt or extra anything that is not necesary for the survival of the species then there is gonna be rules (that or a lot of fights like animals) and we are gonna have philosphers who are going to think about the future of economics but we in a inevitable way will be in another socialism and capitalism era.

[Proto]

Bleh, stop saying wonders about Fox.:p IMO Zedillo was a better president. Again thats just my POV

And, any economical system would be perfectly suitable for humanity in an utopic situtation. Socialsm can be the perfect system. Capitalism can be a very good system. Its the fact that the human always put the individual above the group that originates all the problems and corruption.

[Kazuya]

Do you remember what happened to a teacher who dared to say in his face he was not happy with the decisions Zedillo made? Well, he said: you are gonna pay this to me. And 2 months later he disappeared.
Atleast with Fox we have freedom of speech and thats an advance.

About comunism and capitalism you are right: thehuman is greedy and will fight if there is something extra of anything in order to get it, thus putting the individual above the colectivity.

[elty]

(pure) communism will not work. It will work if everyone in the country are willing to get the same share of resource. In economic view it is also impossible for a government to control supply and demand. Do you think everyone in USSR/China is dumb? No, but still they can't dictate the basic supply and demand. Even North Korea face the fact and slowly open the market.

But I agree those "communist" make it even worse.

Totally avoiding war is impossible, as a necessary defense is required. However if USA with all the nuclear warhead, largest fleet, ability to have a 2 front war simotaneously, much more superior intelligence system, a nice isolated continent, still thinks it needs more defense, then the rest of world is in.... big trouble I guess.

[Proto]

Do you remember what happened to a teacher who dared to say in his face he was not happy with the decisions Zedillo made? Well, he said: you are gonna pay this to me. And 2 months later he disappeared.
Atleast with Fox we have freedom of speech and thats an advance.


Well yeah, but IMO Zedillo was intelligent enough not to further fuel and try to power up the corruption machine the PRI represented. At least he was a president that permitted a peaceful transition. And, overall, he himself was not the corruption machine that every predecesor president since Echeverria had been.

[Kazuya]

You are right, he was the best fo the presidents in a long time of pri government. Can you imagine what could have happened if he didn't permit a peaceful transition? The repercusions could have been really bad, not only in economics but in the view of the entire world. Now that i think of it, he was a decent president because he didn't use such amount of power as this predecesors did. Btw, do you think the goverment is gonna follow that "aperture way" when the next president comes?

[Takmadeus]

>Well the other solution is killing them or sending everyone to the moon. What i think is that getting rid of these people doesnt solves the deep problem, which is a society that doesntget along, that doesnt have common objectives. In sum, a society that is divided. Shiping out everyone that isnt against society will only lead to two things. Even more problems, because the main problem is still there, or slow social corruption and lethargation, because nothing happens and everything becomes static.

>but then what other country would take you in? even schools get fed up after a while. and this method seems very irresponsible to me. you are suggesting that we not deal with our problems and just ship them off for some other people to take care. this isn't well known but mexico for a whilesent it's felons over to the u.s. without telling us. that angers me. it would anger me even if we were told of this. we don't want them. who does? prison is ideal since we keep them here and are still responsible for them. but prisons are overcrowded. too bad. more prisons anyone?

hmmmm.... let's see.... Castro does not have internal wars (just riots and disturbances and the like from the resistance groups), but it has a kickass system when relating to the pillars ofn society (health and education)... if such system, which cares of what's really important would be massively carried, I am sure the world would become a happier place ;)

in a humoristic mood, those exiliated people could live in Canada, after all it has really big territories which are barely empty :p (well, that's what i heard from my canadian fellow :p)

plus..... each country has its own problems to deal with... mine has public order and monetary problems, and the bad fact of it is that they fortify each other simultaneously, making us go into a spiral towards hell.... that's why my methods, although not very orthodoxal, would make wonders with my country..... and when other states saw what I could do with my almost screwed up state, they'd join me...... because peace is a gola which we all try to reach....

[Exodus]

in a humoristic mood, those exiliated people could live in Canada, after all it has really big territories which are barely empty :p (well, that's what i heard from my canadian fellow :p)

well, i'd prefer if my country weren't polluted with exiles. :p
but, if it must be canada, go make them live in the north with the igloos, polar bears and eskimos.

[Takmadeus]

yeah.... i am sure the yukon territory could suit them just fine :p

[op3n_skill]

Stick them all up on quebec, to Let them suffer....
Keep Toronto clean...

[Proto]

Hmmpphrr... well will i agree with the fact that Castro has quite a nice and prosperous system, you forget that Cuba main pillar is dictatorial communism. Communism is a system that will work at best in society that isnt too large (and cuba is in the limit) so that individual affairs dont get in the way of communal development. When you apply the principles of communism to bigger societies, the individual variable becomes so high and uncontrolable that the whole system goes to the ground (like in the URSS). So the only two solutions are, either keep humanity divided in little regions-countries so that communism can be applied to the very specifical needs of each section, or have an extremely efficient and strict goverment group.

[Takmadeus]

hmmmmm I prefer the latter.... but some concepts of the first one can be applied to it as well..... it is just a matter of taking the right decisions in the right moment ;)