South Park creators warned over Muhammad depiction

[ElijahTW]

South Park creators warned over Muhammad depiction.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47689000/jpg/_47689284_muhammadbear466.jpg

Islamists have warned the creators of TV show South Park they could face violent retribution for depicting the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit.

A posting on the website of the US-based group, Revolution Muslim, told Matt Stone and Trey Parker they would "probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh".

The Dutch film-maker was shot and stabbed to death in 2004 by an Islamist angered by his film about Muslim women.

A subsequent episode of the cartoon bleeped out references to Muhammad.

Drug-snorting Buddha

The posting gave details about a home Stone and Parker reportedly co-own.

It also listed the addresses of their production office in California and the New York office of South Park's broadcaster, Comedy Central.

"We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show," warned the posting, written in the name of Abu Talhah Al-Amrikee.

"This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them," it added.

Mr al-Amrikee later told the Associated Press the posting was not an incitement to violence. It had been published to raise awareness of the issue and to see that it did not happen again, he added.

This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them
Abu Talhah Al-Amrikee

A Comedy Central spokesman said the network had no comment.

In the 200th episode of South Park, broadcast in the US and UK last week, Muhammad appeared several times inside a bear suit. Figures from other religions were also depicted, including a drug-snorting Buddha.

Wednesday's 201st episode saw any spoken references to Muhammad bleeped out, while a prominent banner stating "censored" was used in the programme.

Speaking in an interview with the Boing Boing website before the 200th show aired, the South Park team defended the scenes.

"We'd be so hypocritical against our own message, our own thoughts, if we said, 'okay, well let's not make fun of them because they won't hurt us,'" said Parker.

"It matters to me when we talk about Muhammad that I can say we did this... and I can stand behind that," Stone added.

"I don't think it's going to change the world, but this is how it's got to be for our show."

In 2006, Comedy Central banned Stone and Parker from showing an image of Muhammad in an episode that was intended to be part of a comment on the controversy caused by the publication of caricatures of the prophet by a Danish newspaper.

An earlier episode, Super-Best Friends (2001), contained an image of Muhammad but passed without comment.

"It was before the Danish cartoon controversy, so it somehow is fine," Stone told Boing Boing.

"Then, after that, now that's the new normal. We lost. Something that was okay is now not okay."

Muslims consider any physical representation of their prophet to be blasphemous. The caricatures published in Denmark sparked mass protests worldwide.

[Dennemark]

I only heard the muslims threatening so far, and i found this out yesterday.

Theres always something to ***** on...

[ElijahTW]

Islam is a peaceful religion. :)

[Cheesus]

If anything physically happens to Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the entire ****ing world will be at arms.

If you're muslim, I pity you. Seriously.

Not for their depicting Mohammed, but for the **** storm that's about to come your way for the attacks on Stone and Parker.

[Cid Highwind]

Islam is a peaceful religion. :)

Such a shame there's too many violent people who interpret it wrongly though...

Seriously, if it's really that big an issue, please let Allah rain down his justice on them. Taking these things in your own hand is wrong from what I was taught, suck it up and grow a spine. The entire reason the rest of the world is taking the piss out of these things is the irony of them portraying a violent muslim, only to see the muslim community shapeshift into the depicted stereotype, thus confirming it.

[redlofredlof]

So they must only make fun of Jesus. South Park is retarded anyway.

[Smooth Criminal]

Such a shame there's too many violent people who interpret it wrongly though...

Seriously, if it's really that big an issue, please let Allah rain down his justice on them. Taking these things in your own hand is wrong from what I was taught, suck it up and grow a spine. The entire reason the rest of the world is taking the piss out of these things is the irony of them portraying a violent muslim, only to see the muslim community shapeshift into the depicted stereotype, thus confirming it.

indeed...
btw
the treating guys must have not seen how badly jesus is depicted in the show

[Cid Highwind]

indeed...
btw
the treating guys must have not seen how badly jesus is depicted in the show
He's a prophet as well to muslims, isn't he? Why no outrage over that? I understand he's by far not as important as Muhammad, but still. Just wondering :)

[Smooth Criminal]

He's a prophet as well to muslims, isn't he? Why no outrage over that? I understand he's by far not as important as Muhammad, but still. Just wondering :)

exactly.....the same thoughts came into my mind.....
btw
i think the attitude towards south park should be more like "dont like it, dont watch it kinda thing."

[verboten999]

I'm a muslim, and I don't like seeing Muhammad depicted in such a manner. I do not agree of violent threats or acts, but I do understand the agitation of some people upon such act. I just hope that people would be respectful to others' belief no matter what they are, but that's just me. I personally dislike seeing how religious icons are made fun like that, but then again, that's just me.

[redlofredlof]

I'm a muslim, and I don't like seeing Muhammad depicted in such a manner. I do not agree of violent threats or acts, but I do understand the agitation of some people upon such act. I just hope that people would be respectful to others' belief no matter what they are, but that's just me. I personally dislike seeing how religious icons are made fun like that, but then again, that's just me.

so how should we feel when they make fun of Jesus?

[verboten999]

I don't know, how do you? I feel hurt and sad if Muhammad is treated that way. That's why I said I never like it whenever a religious icon is made fun in an offensive manner to the believers. How do you feel?

[redlofredlof]

I don't know, how do you? I feel hurt and sad if Muhammad is treated that way. That's why I said I never like it whenever a religious icon is made fun in an offensive manner to the believers. How do you feel?

Hmmm... well, I'm not very religious but I can't really do anything about TV shows but not watch it

[Kazuya]

When there is something we can't make fun of in our lives then we are taking our own life too seriously.

Why should I do something against people who don't share my view? It would go against all the religions: harming somebody else. (insert sarcsm if needed).

[Strike105X]

Its fairly easy to avoid seeing religious icons in a matter in witch you do not approve.... turn off the tv or change the channel... you don't even have to get up, there is this thing called a remote... anything more is retarded (like the threats in the op for example or feeling seriously insulted over a stupid pamphlet show).

[verboten999]

When there is something we can't make fun of in our lives then we are taking our own life too seriously.

Why should I do something against people who don't share my view? It would go against all the religions: harming somebody else. (insert sarcsm if needed).

I don't. How people see themselves or the world around them is up to them. To each their own. I make fun of something, I do take jokes, but is it so wrong to feel hurt if something important in our lives made fun of? And no, I do not agree in attacking someone who disagrees with you in any way.

[makotech222]

Free speech is worth dying for. they shouldnt have censored it. the dumbasses who threatened them wouldnt do **** about it anyways.

[Strike105X]

Yes and it also goes against many teachings as far as i know most religions have this rule: if someone makes fun of your god let them ignore them is there foolishness, in the end they'll be the ones regretting tarnishing the name of the god (whichever that god maybe).

[Kazuya]

but is it so wrong to feel hurt if something important in our lives made fun of?

In my view yes. It will happen regardless of we being aware of that or don't.

We just happen to know about it but what will change if we get offended? The world will be the same. What would change if we didn't get to know the situation? Nothing. So in other worlds, it's not affecting us.

I personally would use that energy wasted in feeling offended and sad in trying to change the world. Then I'm doing something worth.

[makotech222]

Yes and it also goes against many teachings as far as i know most religions have this rule: if someone makes fun of your god let them ignore them is there foolishness, in the end they'll be the ones regretting tarnishing the name of the god (whichever that god maybe).

Yeah the people that threatened them arent even real muslims.

[koko]

I'd ignore the whole series than threatening them. Luckily, I haven't watched any of that ****s.
He's a prophet as well to muslims, isn't he? Why no outrage over that? I understand he's by far not as important as Muhammad, but still. Just wondering :)
and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers The Quran
Muslims believe in that.

I wouldn't laugh or like when I see pics/movies showing Jesus(PBUH) or make a fun of him. Heck, picturing a prophet on a pic or whatever is prohibited in Islam.

[Strike105X]

i'd ignore the whole series than threatening them.

+1.

[Reaper420]

They threaten Matt and Trey?
*Draws hundreds of pictures of Muhammad and mails them all around the world*

What a surprise, don't like SP eh? Of course not, that would make things too peaceful for me. But fear not, for I know SP > Muhammad > Emulation > Anime > Hentai > Redlof > koko-goal. It does go further, but I feel that's enough fuel.

http://fredfred.net/skriker/images/fred/2006/other/muhammad_vs_jesus/m6.jpg

You lot can't be serious. Verboten it makes you sad to see Muhammad in a joking fashion? Lol and what of jesus? It's ok to make the movie Passion of the Christ where we get to see him get ****ed over hard, but making a joke is ok? So then what exactly to you find funny?

South Park retarded? Red lof is a retarded attempt at funny. South Park is funny.

http://soundpolitics.com/MuhammedCensorship.jpg
http://cdn.nahright.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/umad.jpg

*Quick side not for those who aren't about to blow up and post something ridiculously lame to try to make me look bad to a bunch of nerds* There are many more images of Muhammad on the net, much more vulgar ones than these. Go flame those artists derp derp.

[Cid Highwind]

I'd ignore the whole series than threatening them. Luckily, I haven't watched any of that ****s.

The Quran
Muslims believe in that.

I wouldn't laugh or like when I see pics/movies showing Jesus(PBUH) or make a fun of him. Heck, picturing a prophet on a pic or whatever is prohibited in Islam.
Interesting, thanks for clarifying :)

[Kaizen]

? I feel hurt and sad if Muhammad is treated that way.

Why? You've never met him.

I don't feel sad if someone makes fun of my Idol; Ron Thal. He can stand up for himself.

Apparently, Allah can't ...otherwise the supposed religion of peace might in reality only be the religion of moaning,
instead of the religion of pure, unadulterated violence and oppression.
That is the reality you know. Despite how many shout out in denial it's not. Check the statistics.

If you deny the above, walk into saudi arabia with a crucifix around your neck in the middle of a bustling town.

[Paratech]

Better yet, kiss your wife in Saudi Arabia in public! or have her not covered from head to toe!

Yeah, real tolerance!

[Strike105X]

This is not an bash Muslims/Arabs thread...

[Noja87]

Its inevitable.

[Paratech]

This is not an bash Muslims/Arabs thread...

I'm simply pointing out they're intolerant. It's their country, they can do whatever they want there.

[Cid Highwind]

Its inevitable.

What's it been, a couple of weeks right? Long overdue :p

I'm simply pointing out they're intolerant. It's their country, they can do whatever they want there.
Very true, that's also why I do not believe in the idea of us (as westerners) forcing them to start living according to our standards. For I am sure, beneath the things that we perceive as odd and suppressing, there might be an entire social structure based on respect as well. Not everything is as it seems, just how all girls who like to take their liberty to wear skirts are sluts who'd hop on for a rocket ride at any given moment.

And even if things are suppressive, such things need to come from the bottom of society, so that it may change something structural in the mentality of people. If anything, the recent wars have shown that you can't just force a country to change just because you think, as an outsider, that they should live according to more modern standards.

[Paratech]

The problem you have however is followers of Radical Islam want to force their beliefs globally. The Taliban, and other such organizations want to force Islam onto the rest of the world, and they seem to be succeeding in slowly taking over many countries like France.

Thanks to the fact many non Muslims use birth control and don't want children, means that many non Muslims aren't having kids whereas many Muslims have many kids, and those children will grow up and have their say in how society is ran.

So countries like England, France, etc, may find their permissive societies changing according to Muslim law.

[gamefreak94]

Might I ask why is it ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to do just that kind of thing that's bound to piss off 1 billion people worldwide? (not to mention the making fun of important figures of other major religions too so the number is actually much bigger) can't you do something else for entertainment? Has the world come to an end?

so how should we feel when they make fun of Jesus?

That pisses me off just as much as making fun of Propher Muhammad (PBUH) does. He was a prophet, no less in rank or piety, just as koko quoted.

Free speech is worth dying for. they shouldnt have censored it. the dumbasses who threatened them wouldnt do **** about it anyways.

The Holocaust is prohibited from public criticism and disagreement too.

Oh wait, that isn't a violation of freedom of speech :rolleyes:

[Strike105X]

Its inevitable.

Seems that way its time for me to (see: 03:00)...

k4qFxTTi8q0

[gamefreak94]

If you deny the above, walk into saudi arabia with a crucifix around your neck in the middle of a bustling town.

Tried walking around with a Muslim beard on the streets of Tel Aviv?

[Kaizen]

That pisses me off just as much as making fun of Propher Muhammad (PBUH) does. He was a prophet, no less in rank or piety, just as koko quoted.


Jesus is God. Well that's his character role anyway

Tried walking around with a Muslim beard on the streets of Tel Aviv?

Yeah, my face gets sweaty :(

[Kazuya]

Might I ask why is it ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY t
Nothing is necesary in this life except for breathing and eating, we might as well kill all the television altogether.

Death is sacred, marriage is sacred, eating is sacred in some cultures, rest is sacred for the jews on saturdays, reading is sacred among some monks, taking a dump is sacred according to scientologists... practically every single thing that exists is bound to be sacred to somebody or some belief system and subject to offend to somebody if someone dares to even whisper it's name.

When was the last time you laughed at somebody on tv because of some "taking a dump" related joke? YOU SIR, ARE OFFENDING SCIENTOLOGISTS.

[koko]

You lot can't be serious. Verboten it makes you sad to see Muhammad in a joking fashion? Lol and what of jesus? It's ok to make the movie Passion of the Christ where we get to see him get ****ed over hard, but making a joke is ok? So then what exactly to you find funny?
I do not get this, Muslims didn't make any of that movie. Go blame Mel Gibson.
Interesting, thanks for clarifying :)
You're welcome.

[Paratech]

I think the point is, no they shouldn't mock religious groups, but nobody should throw death threats around when their religion is insulted.

It isn't ok for Christians, Jewish people, Muslims, anyone to threaten to kill others over this garbage.

There are many things that offend me, but I'm not going to murder someone over being offended by insults over stuff I hold sacred.

[Kurbster]

YOo06EOLBuY

[Spyhop]

Muslims need to realize it's this kind of bull**** that makes people not like them. Stop being douches and you won't be made fun of so much.

[Cid Highwind]

Might I ask why is it ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to do just that kind of thing that's bound to piss off 1 billion people worldwide? (not to mention the making fun of important figures of other major religions too so the number is actually much bigger) can't you do something else for entertainment? Has the world come to an end?
The thing is, if they wouldn't include Muhammad, that'd be discrimination based on religion, which is not allowed by American law.

/thread

[Spyhop]

The thing about Matt and Trey is that they are professional call-out artists. They don't discriminate, no one is safe from them. If you're part of a douchebag demographic then be prepared to have Matt and Trey call your bull****. We may laugh at South Park (well, many of us anyway) but aside from humor the show is a big dose of realism (the message, not the content)

[Paratech]

The thing is, if they wouldn't include Muhammad, that'd be discrimination based on religion, which is not allowed by American law.

/thread

That's strange as most liberal shows blast Christianity more than any other religion, Bill Maher anyone? oO :rolleyes:

[Reaper420]

We may laugh at South Park (well, many of us anyway) but aside from humor the show is a big dose of realism (the message, not the content)

http://macroblog.typepad.com/macroblog/images/win_button.jpg

[snickothemule]

Absolutely Spyhop, if only other folks would realise this.

Matt and Trey say it themselves time and time again, the minute they start being selective of who they parody, they become hypocrites.

[Cid Highwind]

The thing about Matt and Trey is that they are professional call-out artists. They don't discriminate, no one is safe from them. If you're part of a douchebag demographic then be prepared to have Matt and Trey call your bull****. We may laugh at South Park (well, many of us anyway) but aside from humor the show is a big dose of realism (the message, not the content)

Yup, it's a big dose of relativism really. And while some might see it as a provocative, mindlessly bashing cartoon, there's a big meaning behind the statements if you actually dare to look further. Yup, they certainly don't mind chopping away with a big axe, but that's always what comedy has been allowed, even through history. In the ancient times we would have court jesters who would actually be allowed to take the piss out of the king and politics, comical relief, but had anyone else wrapped the same message in a different package, he'd have hung.

That's strange as most liberal shows blast Christianity more than any other religion, Bill Maher anyone? oO :rolleyes:
First of all, I don't know any of the shows you're referring to, so I can only speak hypothetically. All I can say is that you need to wonder what they are criticizing the religion in question for in the first place. And why are the Christians being brought into the discussion in the first place? Is it because they want to bash them, or is it because they are discussing topics with which they are heavily involved while Muslims and Buddhists are completely irrelevant in it? After all, discrimination in its definition is selectively giving one group of people/objects privileges or grief, where the group in question is being picked on for reasons irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Example: Right now when I discuss our national politics with my friends, I give the christian parties a lot of grief. Not because they're christian, but because they are the ones responsible for a lot of bad decisions. I also don't agree with the political views of all our christian parties, for several reasons. Would that be discrimination? No, it isn't, because I am against these parties for political reasons, they just happen to all be christian, and thus I can lable them as such.

[Paratech]

Absolutely Spyhop, if only other folks would realise this.

Matt and Trey say it themselves time and time again, the minute they start being selective of who they parody, they become hypocrites.

You mean like the guy who voiced "Chef" and quit because "Scientology" was mocked, but he mocked Christianity for years and that was ok?

[Spyhop]

Yeah, Matt and Trey made it pretty damn clear Isacc Hayes is never coming back, ever. :lol:

[Paratech]

Yup, it's a big dose of relativism really. And while some might see it as a provocative, mindlessly bashing cartoon, there's a big meaning behind the statements if you actually dare to look further. Yup, they certainly don't mind chopping away with a big axe, but that's always what comedy has been allowed, even through history. In the ancient times we would have court jesters who would actually be allowed to take the piss out of the king and politics, comical relief, but had anyone else wrapped the same message in a different package, he'd have hung.


First of all, I don't know any of the shows you're referring to, so I can only speak hypothetically. All I can say is that you need to wonder what they are criticizing the religion in question for in the first place. And why are the Christians being brought into the discussion in the first place? Is it because they want to bash them, or is it because they are discussing topics with which they are heavily involved while Muslims and Buddhists are completely irrelevant in it? After all, discrimination in its definition is selectively giving one group of people/objects privileges or grief, where the group in question is being picked on for reasons irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Example: Right now when I discuss our national politics with my friends, I give the christian parties a lot of grief. Not because they're christian, but because they are the ones responsible for a lot of bad decisions. I also don't agree with the political views of all our christian parties, for several reasons. Would that be discrimination? No, it isn't, because I am against these parties for political reasons, they just happen to all be christian, and thus I can lable them as such.

I fail to understand how Christianity is a political party as there are liberal / democrat Christians and conservative / republican Christians. Unless you're saying the Rev Al Sharpton, John Kerry, The whole Kennedy family, were not Christians?

There are plenty of TV shows that mock Christianity, portray Christians in a bad light / stereotype, and it has nothing to do with politics, but everything to do with hate.

People have the right to produce hateful TV shows as entertainment, they should NOT be threatened with death, but they should be called out as hateful people.

[Spyhop]

If you think they're hateful then you completely misunderstand what they're about. They're not about hating people, they're about making us realize the dumb**** things we do as a society.

[Paratech]

Sorry, I keep forgetting that bashing religion (Particularly Christianity) is a sign of being open minded...

:rolleyes:

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

The thing about Matt and Trey is that they are professional call-out artists. They don't discriminate, no one is safe from them. If you're part of a douchebag demographic then be prepared to have Matt and Trey call your bull****. We may laugh at South Park (well, many of us anyway) but aside from humor the show is a big dose of realism (the message, not the content)

Whilst I abhor the way South Park makes fun of christianity (aside from 1 specific ep which quite possibly is my absolute favourite in the entire series) I have to completely agree with Spyhop's statement.

There's a reason why South Park makes fun of christians so much, and that's that Christianity is the world's biggest, or at least the West's biggest religeon so the creators know about it the most and come in contact with it the most.

In fact this accounts for why most people make fun of christianity as well...the West is most atheist yet the West's biggest connection to religeon is christianity. Secondly the East is mostly religeous...and them making fun of other religeons would be a bit like the pot calling the kettle black...so they don't.

2nd most made fun of is Islam...because that's the religeon that the west has 2nd most exposure to. The rest barely feature well...because the West is affected by them so little.

Anyways at least that's my take on things.

[Paratech]

The irony being Atheists calling themselves "open minded", yet will they bash Atheism? Only the Simpsons has done so, and only once... When Homer's next door neighbor Flanders was Principal, and tried to say a prayer in school, oh and a second one (Halloween special) where Bart got a book from the Occult section of the School Library.

[Exodus]

The end of fighting: a sense of humour.

[Spyhop]

The irony being Atheists calling themselves "open minded", yet will they bash Atheism?

South Park has made fun of atheists as well. Stop whining like a butthurt victim.

[Paratech]

Fine, if they have such a great sense of humor, they should mock themselves. I don't see that happening...

I'm not whining, I'm pointing out most shows that mock, mock their "enemies / opponents / those who think differently" and yet call themselves "open minded."

You don't see me banning any show or threatening to kill anyone, I just refuse to watch the garbage...

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

The irony being Atheists calling themselves "open minded", yet will they bash Atheism? Only the Simpsons has done so, and only once... When Homer's next door neighbor Flanders was Principal, and tried to say a prayer in school, oh and a second one (Halloween special) where Bart got a book from the Occult section of the School Library.

It's kinda hard to bash something which whilst it has a term assigned to it isn't really something. Atheism is just non-belief, not another religeon.

However what can be made fun of is that Science holds all the answers...and South Park does that.

[Spyhop]

However what can be made fun of is that Science holds all the answers..

Anyone who understands anything about science will tell you that science doesn't have all the answers.

In the words of Dara O'Briein, "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise....it would stop.

But just because science doesn't know everything doesn't mean you should fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to ya."

[Paratech]

Sure you can mock people who have no faith...
have an atheist boasting about this world being all that there is to live for and show the world as it really is...If that's all that is worth believing in count me out of it! ;)

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

And just because there's gaps does not mean my "fairy tales" don't fill them.

[Spyhop]

And just because there's gaps does not mean my "fairy tales" don't fill them.

Shall we make this a religious debate then? I'm always ready for a row.

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

lol no, let's just let the rare occasion of me agreeing with you linger for a while. There'll be plenty more threads where we can go at it (not that that's ever my intention...though I do tend to get caught up in the heat of the moment and argue as opposed to just correct and fade away as I had intended).

[Demigod]

The irony being Atheists calling themselves "open minded", yet will they bash Atheism? Only the Simpsons has done so, and only once... When Homer's next door neighbor Flanders was Principal, and tried to say a prayer in school, oh and a second one (Halloween special) where Bart got a book from the Occult section of the School Library.
I guess you're not familiar with atheist politics then. Atheists do attack each other, especially over how to discuss issues in public. Atheists like Michael Shermer disagree wholeheartedly with atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and each will criticize the other for their "brand" of atheism. I also remember a thread on "atheist spirituality" that was posted by an atheist on the Raving Atheists forums and it was attacked viciously by other atheists. Atheists generally put up a united front against religion/superstitution but that doesn't mean they never criticize, bash, or make fun of each other.

As for the main topic, I do hope Matt and Trey will hold their grounds (in fact, I'm pretty certain of it). They pretty much make fun of everything and that's the way it should be (I remember they made a two-part episode that featured Richard Dawkins and pitted atheists in the future against each other, thus they also make fun of atheists).

[verboten999]

Lol isn't being offended really my personal experience? I don't do anything to bash other religion or religious icons and I do not agree with it. That's it. Never did I even try to condemn people who made fun of it or attacking them.

@Kazuya: Yeah, I guess I need to learn from that kind of attitude. I don't dwell on that though, not that I get depressed or suit myself with a strap of bombing armor over these kinds of things lol

My take on South Park? I don't like it, I don't watch it. I don't condone threatening them or anything because it's against my stand on tolerance. It may be funny, but funny is something which differs from one to another.

Please understand that I wrote the post just to state my opinion on the matter. Never was it my intention to force my one-sided opinion onto the world or to the members of the forum.

Verboten it makes you sad to see Muhammad in a joking fashion? Lol and what of jesus? It's ok to make the movie Passion of the Christ where we get to see him get ****ed over hard, but making a joke is ok? So then what exactly to you find funny?

*Quick side note for those who are about to blow up and post something ridiculously lame to try to make me look bad to a bunch of nerds* There are many more images of Muhammad on the net, much more vulgar ones than these. Go flame those artists derp derp.

:D I can't help but to wonder why you take things into personal vendetta? I already stated before that I am not comfortable with any attempt to make fun of ANY religious icons, not just Muhammad. And there are a lot of things that make me laugh or I consider funny, though this particular topic isn't my taste. I'm addicted to this (http://www.cracked.com/) right now :p

[snickothemule]

You mean like the guy who voiced "Chef" and quit because "Scientology" was mocked, but he mocked Christianity for years

No, I stated Matt and Trey would be hypocrits should they become selective of who they choose to parody. Issac Hayes was a hypocrite by doing what he did and was not welcome back to the show because of his actions.

and that was ok?

If you are going to mock/parodise then you must be willing to do it to everyone (including yourself), otherwise you are simply targeting a group of people for your own agenda. Matt and Trey mock/parodise absolutely everything they see in popular culture, including themselves for the sake of comedy, and to highlight the ridiculous nature in everything/everyone. Which is why I love the show so much.

Matt and Trey are not about trying to rile individuals and the witless to levels to boost their public profile or their ratings, they act to ridicule whatever is in the popular media/culture to counteract the real level of ridiculousness that is in popular media/culture. If they weren't the show would have been yanked years ago on grounds of hate speech or whatever.

The end of fighting: a sense of humour.

Testify!

[Cid Highwind]

I fail to understand how Christianity is a political party as there are liberal / democrat Christians and conservative / republican Christians. Unless you're saying the Rev Al Sharpton, John Kerry, The whole Kennedy family, were not Christians?

There are plenty of TV shows that mock Christianity, portray Christians in a bad light / stereotype, and it has nothing to do with politics, but everything to do with hate.

People have the right to produce hateful TV shows as entertainment, they should NOT be threatened with death, but they should be called out as hateful people.
I was talking about the politics in my country. I don't know enough of America to make such bold statements about your political parties anyway. I was merely pointing out how having a criticizing opinion does not equal discrimination, but also that I don't know if it applies to your country, as I am not familiar enough with it. :)

Anyway, I think that in comedy things have to be in good taste. We've got comedians here who would bash christians blindly as well, or muslims. I don't like those, they don't make a point, they're just nitpicking without any result really. In the end, personally I believe that the line of good taste is drawn between criticism through comedy (and addressing an issue), and the bashing of things that are of no concern to you. And also, if the intention is to just bash and set out hatred, I can't be entertained by such programs. In the end those usually fade anyway, as they hold no truth and no proper content to keep the people entertained anyway. South Park is no such program.

Sure you can mock people who have no faith...
have an atheist boasting about this world being all that there is to live for and show the world as it really is...If that's all that is worth believing in count me out of it! ;)I believe a lot of people are unjustly labeled as an atheist. Perhaps even unaware of it themselves, they have much more of an agnostic view of life. A true atheist states that there is no god, yet there is no proof for that either. See the flying spaghetti monster for that one. I'm an agnost myself as well, as to me it is irrelevant whether or not there's a god. If there is, I'll find out eventually, until then, if he's a fair dude he will certainly not disagree with the idea of me trying to live a life good for myself and others, while not actually fighting over what his actual name is.

And it's true, there's plenty of things on this earth that are worth living for. When I see some people who live in constant fear of the end, foregoing the entire idea of it being possible to have fun on this planet as well while still leading a good life, it makes me feel sorry for them.

[Spyhop]

Anyway, I think that in comedy things have to be in good taste.

Good humor reflects truths back upon society. Some people don't like what they see.

[Paratech]

Good humor reflects truths back upon society. Some people don't like what they see.

Good humor or hate? Not that I'm boycotting the show, or any show, or any sponsors, but to me and many people, South Park, Family Guy, American Dad, any of those so-called comedies are nothing but a purveyor of hate.

I just simply choose not to watch them.

:innocent:

[Cid Highwind]

I guess it's all relative. I know Monty Python's Life of Brian was banned from several places as well, while it's my fav movie. If there'd ever be any reason for a christian to slap some bombs around his waste, it'd be that movie. Can't consider it a purveyor of hate though, but with all respect, it definitely states something about the way those people stand in life.

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

Good humor or hate? Not that I'm boycotting the show, or any show, or any sponsors, but to me and many people, South Park, Family Guy, American Dad, any of those so-called comedies are nothing but a purveyor of hate.

I just simply choose not to watch them.

:innocent:

And the Simpsons are fine?

[Spyhop]

Good humor or hate?

****, stop already. Parody != hate.
You are the most closed minded individual on this forum, and I'm not saying the because you're religious.

[Paratech]

I didn't remember saying that? oO ?

Are you putting words in my mouth?

"any of those so-called comedies are nothing but a purveyor of hate."

The Simpsons is a "so-called comedy" right? :evil: ;)

""****, stop already. Parody != hate.
You are the most closed minded individual on this forum, and I'm not saying the because you're religious. "

Coming from someone so full of hatred for religion I take that as a compliment! :)

"Parody is often hatred cloaked in a false sense of humor"

[SCHUMI_4EVER]

I didn't remember saying that? oO ?

Are you putting words in my mouth?

"any of those so-called comedies are nothing but a purveyor of hate."

The Simpsons is a "so-called comedy" right? :evil: ;)

""****, stop already. Parody != hate.
You are the most closed minded individual on this forum, and I'm not saying the because you're religious. "

Coming from someone so full of hatred for religion I take that as a compliment! :)

"Parody is often hatred cloaked in a false sense of humor"

well yes but the simpsons is bigger than all of those others than you mentioned so I figured you excluded it

[Paratech]

I'll admit, the first few years I liked the Simpson's and thought it was funny, but I think it outlived its time and should have been ended years ago.

There's a point where you become outrageous and are no longer funny, but outrageous, and the Simpson's passed that time.

[Linktothepast]

I guess it's all relative. I know Monty Python's Life of Brian was banned from several places as well, while it's my fav movie. If there'd ever be any reason for a christian to slap some bombs around his waste, it'd be that movie. Can't consider it a purveyor of hate though, but with all respect, it definitely states something about the way those people stand in life.

The end song is great.

WlBiLNN1NhQ&NR=1

[Paratech]

I guess it's all relative. I know Monty Python's Life of Brian was banned from several places as well, while it's my fav movie. If there'd ever be any reason for a christian to slap some bombs around his waste, it'd be that movie. Can't consider it a purveyor of hate though, but with all respect, it definitely states something about the way those people stand in life.

Oddly enough I know a Priest who can't get enough of those kind of shows. I prefer Monty Python and the Holy Grail, particularly for the "killer bunny" scene. I had a fat polish/netherlands dwarf mix rabbit "Mario", and that show reminds me of him, even though poor Mario *might* have been gay, as he had a male roommate in his pen after I gave him away when I was in college! oO

Yes, my pet rabbit may have been gay! :evil:

[Demigod]

****, stop already. Parody != hate.
You are the most closed minded individual on this forum, and I'm not saying the because you're religious.
Indeed, I can't see how anyone cannot tell the difference between parody/criticism and actual hatred. Kind of reminds me of one friend I know who won't watch Family Guy because he says it's "critical of Christianity". Strangely, his wife, a fellow Christian, loves the show:p. Not watching a show because it's personally offensive is one thing, but labelling it as hate media is something else.

[gamefreak94]

Muslims need to realize it's this kind of bull**** that makes people not like them. Stop being douches and you won't be made fun of so much.

Unrelated to this, but changing core values and beliefs in order to make them acceptable to other people is hypocrisy. The existing values and commandments are as fair and just as it can get, but if others fail to understand that then there's nothing we can do about it.

*snip*

I remember the last time I did something 0.0001% as trollish as this in a holocaust thread I almost nearly ended up with an infraction.

South Park has made fun of atheists as well. Stop whining like a butthurt victim.

You don't mind that? Good for you, you have your own way of seeing these things. If you don't speak out against these kind of things from the start, they're just bound to grow out of proportion. Escaping from a mere TV series is as easy as pressing a button on the remote control, but do you think its possible for any internet user to escape from all pictures of Jesus flooding the net?

[@ruantec]

I have nothing against Muslims or there believes but the main problem is the way people see that religion as "BAD" because of there acts(again not the religion itself). Prophets nor Jesus never commanded people to fight in order to defend them but quite the opposite they always looked for peaceful ways to solve problems and in fact they actually never cared of what people believe/think about them.

the main problem why muslims are hated its because they get offended to easy and pay too much attention on others way of thinking and at the end they start warning or conspirating against someone. i myself am an agressive person but nobody has the right to judge against others lives nor take them away either and that's what i think its totally wrong.

There are tons of religions but if there's something they have in common then its one goal "PEACE" if a religion doesn't look for that goal than something wrong is going on there. the entire world is ruled by the "EVIL" and its not our war as we can't fight against the evil directly so such things must be not on concern of us and we should just skip that kind of things.

One thing is getting angry about that kind of things(that's normal) and another is to thinking in killing someone just because of that nor send any warnings in order to plan some attack. if we do so we aren't doing what its holy but what's evil and so we aren't any better than those who are slaves of the evil itself.

my 2 cents on the matter :p

[capo_2k]

Anyone seen South Park episode 201? All that censoring at the end wasn't a joke; It really was edited over by comedy central. Matt and Trey aren't too happy about it.

As for all the religion talk, you can shove it up your asses. I think the best solution is for everyone in the world to pick up a baseball bat and fight it out zombie apocalypse style, and whoever's left at the end is the winner.

Dara O'Briain
I like him too, he cracks me up. :) Bill Bailey's also good.

[cottonvibes]

I have nothing against Muslims or there believes but the main problem is the way people see that religion as "BAD" because of there acts(again not the religion itself). Prophets nor Jesus never commanded people to fight in order to defend them but quite the opposite they always looked for peaceful ways to solve problems and in fact they actually never cared of what people believe/think about them.


the god of Abrahamic religions is judgmental, jealous, homophobic, horrible, and just out-right evil, irrational and contradicting.
there are many instances in the scriptures where he commands his people to kill other people who were worshiping false gods and were enemies of god etc...
there are passages in the bible where people like Moses even tell his people to slay their enemies, but keep the virgin girls for themselves.

abrahamic religions are sick and barbaric.
and blindly believing in such things is ridiculous and ignorant.

to make their religions not sound so horrible, people cherry-pick the verses in their scriptures that goes with their morals.
they then ignore and make excuses for all the other horrible and incorrect verses in their scriptures.

i'm not saying that every message in the scriptures are evil.
but i'm saying that you can't just take the good things, and then ignore the bad, and then say that the religion is all about peace or good-will.
because its not.


You don't mind that? Good for you, you have your own way of seeing these things. If you don't speak out against these kind of things from the start, they're just bound to grow out of proportion. Escaping from a mere TV series is as easy as pressing a button on the remote control, but do you think its possible for any internet user to escape from all pictures of Jesus flooding the net?

i hope you're not defending the ridiculous actions the muslims have taken in regards to this work of satire.

the ironic thing is the muslims are doing exactly what the south park episodes were making fun of.

Sure you can mock people who have no faith...
have an atheist boasting about this world being all that there is to live for and show the world as it really is...If that's all that is worth believing in count me out of it! ;)

weren't you the one in that other thread that said life is worth living?
and now you're saying if the world is only-this, then its not worth living for?

so your religion is the only reason you have a will to live?

[@ruantec]

the god of Abrahamic religions is judgmental, jealous, homophobic, horrible, and just out-right evil, irrational and contradicting.
there are many instances in the scriptures where he commands his people to kill other people who were worshiping false gods and were enemies of god etc...
there are passages in the bible where people like Moses even tell his people to slay their enemies, but keep the virgin girls for themselves.

abrahamic religions are sick and barbaric.
and blindly believing in such things is ridiculous and ignorant.

to make their religions not sound so horrible, people cherry-pick the verses in their scriptures that goes with their morals.
they then ignore and make excuses for all the other horrible and incorrect verses in their scriptures.

i'm not saying that every message in the scriptures are evil.
but i'm saying that you can't just take the good things, and then ignore the bad, and then say that the religion is all about peace or good-will.
because its not.


Thank you for the explanation :thumb:

i read the Bible several times and its true that God many times commanded people but what i mean that Jesus itself was actually promoting peace instead of war. usualy that's what religions try to do nowdays as there goal is/should be to promote peace instead of war between people. sadly in islamic places fanatism seems to be something very common and sadly it makes the religion look ugly and other people may hate them because of that.

anyways you have a point there ;)

[Beatrix]

What's the big deal. Let them be. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If someone calls me "unattractive", should I kill the person? No, that is their own opinion, not mine. Any, is this group real Muslims at all? I don't know much about Islam, but I'm pretty sure they aren't supposed to mete out punishment for any reason.

[cottonvibes]

Thank you for the explanation :thumb:

i read the Bible several times and its true that God many times commanded people but what i mean that Jesus itself was actually promoting peace instead of war. usualy that's what religions try to do nowdays as there goal is/should be to promote peace instead of war between people. sadly in islamic places fanatism seems to be something very common and sadly it makes the religion look ugly and other people may hate them because of that.

anyways you have a point there ;)

yeh its true that in the new testament, jesus' message was about loving your neighbor, peace, and etc...

but one of the problems is religions like christianity is not all about jesus. it is also about following gods word, which involves all the horrible stuff in the bible as well as the good stuff.

also if you only choose jesus and other good things in the bible, then you're just cherry-picking what you want to believe in based on your own morals.
and if you're going to do that then why be religious in the first place?

What's the big deal. Let them be. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If someone calls me "unattractive", should I kill the person? No, that is their own opinion, not mine. Any, is this group real Muslims at all? I don't know much about Islam, but I'm pretty sure they aren't supposed to mete out punishment for any reason.

their laws are barbaric and cruel.

guess what the punishment for apostasy is?
Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment_for_apostasy)

[@ruantec]

yeh its true that in the new testament, jesus' message was about loving your neighbor, peace, and etc...

but one of the problems is religions like christianity is not all about jesus. it is also about following gods word, which involves all the horrible stuff in the bible as well as the good stuff.

also if you only choose jesus and other good things in the bible, then you're just cherry-picking what you want to believe in based on your own morals.
and if you're going to do that then why be religious in the first place?


True, Jesus and God are two different Persons and the Bible itself says that.. as stated in the Bible God want PEACE aswell but the main problem i see in islamic religions is the fanatism. the way they believe in there religion is excelent but going to such extreme levels makes them looks bad and because of that they are being hated so much nowdays in many places.

i myself have lots of islamic friends and even if i don't understand many of there believes i still respect them. i just can't understand how they allow many to drive them crazy with silly believes. also when i see womans full-covered on the streets(you can see only there eyes) i really feel sorry for them... i mean i respect there way of life and believes but this for sure isn't what God wants but what MENS wants and that's really sad.

[Demigod]

Thank you for the explanation :thumb:

i read the Bible several times and its true that God many times commanded people but what i mean that Jesus itself was actually promoting peace instead of war. usualy that's what religions try to do nowdays as there goal is/should be to promote peace instead of war between people. sadly in islamic places fanatism seems to be something very common and sadly it makes the religion look ugly and other people may hate them because of that.

anyways you have a point there ;)
This difference (between the vengeful god of the OT and the merciful god of the NT) was so stark that some early Christians even considered them two different gods. Marcion composed one of the first editions of the bible but left out the OT, as well as any Christian writings he thought were sympathetic to the Jewish god/law (such as the part where Jesus said he has come to fulfill the OT laws, not revoke them). This is one of the problems that Christians have been tackling for a long time. In fact, one of the first question that my students asked me (when I was a bible teacher) was why god would order the massacre of the people residing in the promised land. I honestly didn't know what to say.

[Xblade]

People who take offense to shows like family guy are not suited for the internetz.

[Cid Highwind]

You don't mind that? Good for you, you have your own way of seeing these things. If you don't speak out against these kind of things from the start, they're just bound to grow out of proportion. Escaping from a mere TV series is as easy as pressing a button on the remote control, but do you think its possible for any internet user to escape from all pictures of Jesus flooding the net?
I understand where you're coming from, and that's exactly the problem here. Rather than asking for respect, instead there warnings in the fashion of "Well I know it shouldn't happen, but if you continue like this, there is a very good chance someone might get hurt very bad"

These people all have TV magazines to see what time a particular show is on. The same way I find certain proclamations in church programs outrageous, hence why I don't watch TV on Sunday morning, rather than causing an outcry and threatening the hosts. In the end, I understand all Muslims are asking for is more respect for their beliefs, but the way they are doing this has the complete opposite effect.


to make their religions not sound so horrible, people cherry-pick the verses in their scriptures that goes with their morals.
they then ignore and make excuses for all the other horrible and incorrect verses in their scriptures.

i'm not saying that every message in the scriptures are evil.
but i'm saying that you can't just take the good things, and then ignore the bad, and then say that the religion is all about peace or good-will.
because its not.I think you can, that's why there's a bazillion protestant churches. In the end religion is a way of life and the deity, seeing how the bible was written by mankind, nothing is absolute in the first place, so why can't people selectively take the good stuff and use this, discarding the bad? I'm all for it, and I can't see why you'd like to have those people become barbarians again. The people who are this selective and who actually have made religion to something this personal, I highly respect. They don't just follow one preacher, but actually gave things a proper thought to see how they could live life the best way, to themselves and most likely towards others. Hey, wait, reminds me of one of the core values of christians as well. And some take this even further, and they just keep the lessons as lessons of life, and discard the entire deity thing.

Anyway, that's already going off topic quite a bit. I think in this post the core point is that if you disagree and want more respect for your faith, treat people of different opinion with the same respect as that you desire. If I were the head of a muslim community, I'd invite these South Park guys over to a mosque for a cup of traditional tea to talk things over, just to get misinterpretations of the faith out of the way. Seems a lot more civil than threats, doesn't it?

[Xblade]

I think you can, that's why there's a bazillion protestant churches. In the end religion is a way of life and the deity, seeing how the bible was written by mankind, nothing is absolute in the first place, so why can't people selectively take the good stuff and use this, discarding the bad? I'm all for it, and I can't see why you'd like to have those people become barbarians again. The people who are this selective and who actually have made religion to something this personal, I highly respect. They don't just follow one preacher, but actually gave things a proper thought to see how they could live life the best way, to themselves and most likely towards others. Hey, wait, reminds me of one of the core values of christians as well. And some take this even further, and they just keep the lessons as lessons of life, and discard the entire deity thing.

Anyway, that's already going off topic quite a bit. I think in this post the core point is that if you disagree and want more respect for your faith, treat people of different opinion with the same respect as that you desire. If I were the head of a muslim community, I'd invite these South Park guys over to a mosque for a cup of traditional tea to talk things over, just to get misinterpretations of the faith out of the way. Seems a lot more civil than threats, doesn't it?

However, religious people that actually do this are fleeting in number.

The majority of them just use religion as scapegoat.

[Beatrix]

I know a number of Muslims that are not practicing, and none were beheaded. Although I did read recently that one guy ordered a hit on his own flesh and blood daughter because she was wearing to revealing clothing. But I'd think that is exceptions to the rule.

[nanaya]

their laws are barbaric and cruel.

guess what the punishment for apostasy is?
Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment_for_apostasy)
Qur'an (which we uphold as absolute decree) doesn't explicitly said this and some Hadith (which is our preferred way of life, complementing Qur'an) even contradict it.

FYI, during his life, in a portion when Islam is still a minority and jeered, Muhammad was abused badly by people around him. Guess what did he do when he finally reign Mecca? He forgives them.

Islam promotes peace and forgiveness except in an extreme case such when we are life-threatened.

Anyway, that's already going off topic quite a bit. I think in this post the core point is that if you disagree and want more respect for your faith, treat people of different opinion with the same respect as that you desire. If I were the head of a muslim community, I'd invite these South Park guys over to a mosque for a cup of traditional tea to talk things over, just to get misinterpretations of the faith out of the way. Seems a lot more civil than threats, doesn't it?

Actually this is what me and my friend, whom I discussed with regarding this issue, agree with (fight back with knowledge and grace). Different people will reach different conclusion (which some of the extremist will, with drastic measure), but Islam itself never promote violent if there is still a way to solve an issue.

[JJXB]

anyone offended by this should just suck it up. because while i gave up watching south park YEARS back, i acknowledge it isn't selective in who it lampoons. because in the end, being selective would just lead to more and more people demanding they stop being mocked with a justifiable reason of "WELL X DOESN'T GET MOCKED, WHY SHOULD WE GET MOCKED?".

[gamefreak94]

i hope you're not defending the ridiculous actions the muslims have taken in regards to this work of satire.

No. but verbal protest and demonstration against the comedy and its producer is entirely justified.

the ironic thing is the muslims are doing exactly what the south park episodes were making fun of.

And you think those few nutcases are role models for the what the religion really stands for. Way to go.

[Demigod]

No. but verbal protest and demonstration against the comedy and its producer is entirely justified.
Warnings and threats are not the same as protests and demonstrations.

[Kazuya]

Please understand that I wrote the post just to state my opinion on the matter. Never was it my intention to force my one-sided opinion onto the world or to the members of the forum.

I think you are the only one who hasn't taken it personally.

Me? I'm playing devil's advocate :p I could create arguments opposite to what I have said but I guess what I wrote fits my mind better.

People, who said and in which religious book is stated that all sacred things must lack sense of humor? Even Jesus had sense of humor:

"Nathanael liked to rib Phillip over his being taken in by Jesus saying, "Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" When Jesus finally meets Nathanael he has a come back for him: "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" Of course, Jacob was the father of the Israelites and his name meant "full of guile" or "deceiver." With a touch of sarcasm Jesus is saying, "Well, I declare, we've found the first guile-less son of Jacob!"

Not to mention the obvious pun intended when he said Peter would be the rock of his church when that name in arameic means rock :p

We also have to take into account that if these characters really existed they had a big amount of following which by is only earned by being a charismatic leader. One of the things that make them like that is precisely a sense of humor, NEVER using impositions.

[gamefreak94]

Warnings and threats are not the same as protests and demonstrations.

...

Where did I say they're the same?

[Spyhop]

Unrelated to this, but changing core values and beliefs in order to make them acceptable to other people is hypocrisy.

So being a douchebag to everyone who doesn't believe in islam is a core muslim value?

[gamefreak94]

Unrelated to this, but changing core values and beliefs in order to make them acceptable to other people is hypocrisy.

http://pictures.mastermarf.com/blog/2009/091128-derp.jpg

[Cheesus]

So being a douchebag to everyone who doesn't believe in islam is a core muslim value?
Quote of the year. Seriously.

[Cid Highwind]

Great, I see where this is going. How is it exactly still relevant to the South Park case? Also, it seems like a rather generalizing statement as well. There's not just one Islam and I doubt gamefreak has to be able to justify the actions of all. In any case, the last thing I want is this thread to turn into a flamefest between members, so please refrain from getting personal in this. :)

Edit: LOL @ Gamefreak's image :lol:

[Spyhop]

Edit: LOL @ Gamefreak's image :lol:

He's trying to be clever because he's butthurt I used that picture on him a couple days ago.

[Demigod]

...

Where did I say they're the same?
It was warnings and threats that were issued to the comedy and its producers, not protests and demonstrations. If it was the latter then this wouldn't be an issue at all.

[Cheesus]

Posted on: 04.22.10
A Statement from Matt and Trey

In the 14 years we've been doing South Park we have never done a show that we couldn't stand behind. We delivered our version of the show to Comedy Central and they made a determination to alter the episode. It wasn't some meta-joke on our part. Comedy Central added the bleeps. In fact, Kyle's customary final speech was about intimidation and fear. It didn't mention Muhammad at all but it got bleeped too. We'll be back next week with a whole new show about something completely different and we'll see what happens to it.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/news/3878

Anyone else boycotting Comedy Central?

[Spyhop]

I totally am!
(I don't get comedy central :P )

I'm sure the uncensored episode will wind up on the net somewhere.
Muhammed Muhammed Muhammed Muhammed Muhammed

[Paratech]

People who take offense to shows like family guy are not suited for the internetz.

Now who's being close minded? Since when was the Family Guy a litmus test to use the Internet? or did you just describe everyone who uses the Internet as being on a mentality of Family Guy fans? Way to stereotype everyone who uses the Internet!

[gamefreak94]

Comedy Central almost certainly did this cuz of the security issue, why blame them?

He's trying to be clever because he's butthurt I used that picture on him a couple days ago.

Fact is that you failed at what your typical ROM n00b fails at:

Read > Comprehend > Post

[Spyhop]

Now who's being close minded?

I said you were closed minded, not Xblade.

[Cid Highwind]

Comedy Central almost certainly did this cuz of the security issue, why blame them?
Uhm, because you'd be giving in to terrorism?

[koko]

People, who said and in which religious book is stated that all sacred things must lack sense of humor? Even Jesus had sense of humor:
I don't get this sense of humor thingy here. Do you like to see anyone making fun of your parents, family or someone you love?

Muhammed (PBUH) is more than parents in Islam.

[Spyhop]

Do you like to see anyone making fun of your parents, family or someone you love?

If it's meant for fun and not hate, totally.

[Strike105X]

I don't get this sense of humor thingy here. Do you like to see anyone making fun of your parents, family or someone you love?

Muhammed (PBUH) is more than parents in Islam.

With my old gang things like this where on a daily basis... but like spy said it was for fun not hate.

[Kazuya]

Yep, I don't care. They can defend for themselves and are responsible for their own conduct. Furthermore, there is a big difference between paroding my beloved ones and making fun of them. We parody between us and smile. That's how we take life and LOVE each other.

Do you know what? When I go to heaven I'm pretty sure the first thing God will say to me is a lawyer's joke.

[gamefreak94]

This isn't casual fun or anything even close, its nothing but undeserved disgrace and utter humiliation of a very noble and perfect person.

Like I said before, there's absolutely no NEED to make something which so many people would find deeply offensive (well one-sixth of the global population anyway...). Kyle and Matt are just showing they're an even tougher nut to crack then the people who want them dead.

[Paratech]

Noble and perfect person? How many people did this perfect and noble person slaughter in his lifetime? oO ?

[gamefreak94]

Freakin' sewer rats crapping on the forum....

Uhm, because you'd be giving in to terrorism?

Would you be willing to put your life on the line if you were them?

[koko]

I know, maybe making a fun between people is fun but there is a red line for it...

They already know that picturing Muhammed (PBUH) isn't acceptable at all, even if they doing it with good intention.
Even if they aired it already, I just won't threatening them or do anything except ignore that show.
Noble and perfect person? How many people did this perfect and noble person slaughter in his lifetime? oO ?
Examples, please?

[Kazuya]

They already know that picturing Muhammed (PBUH) isn't acceptable at all

Anything isn't acceptable at all for somebody in this planet. Did you know that?

[Spyhop]

I know, maybe making a fun between people is fun but there is a red line for it...

They already know that picturing Muhammed (PBUH) isn't acceptable at all, even if they doing it with good intention.
Even if they aired it already, I just won't threatening them or do anything except ignore that show.

Examples, please?

Well censorship offends me as much as depictions of Muhammed offend you.

Now what.

[Xblade]

Now who's being close minded? Since when was the Family Guy a litmus test to use the Internet? or did you just describe everyone who uses the Internet as being on a mentality of Family Guy fans? Way to stereotype everyone who uses the Internet!

Don't manipulate my post with that bs mentality, it is quite annoying when you do so.

I was saying that anyone who would find Family Guys fictional mockery demeaning, should gtfo the net.
kthnx.

[Kaizen]

Anything isn't acceptable at all for somebody in this planet. Did you know that?

Your post is unacceptable for me.

DIE!!!!

Ps. I'm very peaceful.

NOW DIEEEEEE!!!!!!

[Xblade]

Comedy Central almost certainly did this cuz of the security issue, why blame them?



Fact is that you failed at what your typical ROM n00b fails at:

Read > Comprehend > Post

But your kind follow an extra step so it goes like this

Read > Comprehend > Propagandize > Post.

[Cid Highwind]

Well censorship offends me as much as depictions of Muhammed offend you.

Now what.
Well you can either turn a blind eye to censorship and pretend it doesn't exist, or try to do something about it.

Your turn :D

[gamefreak94]

Anything isn't acceptable at all for somebody in this planet. Did you know that?

There's a difference between unacceptability for 1 person, and unacceptability for 1 billion people you know :rolleyes:

Well censorship offends me as much as depictions of Muhammed offend you.

Now what.

Uhh...yeah, you're just saying that for argument's sake....

Besides, aren't you supposed to be the "open-minded one"? Someone who doesn't care about petty things like these? :rolleyes:

[Exodus]

An open mind about censorship...?

[Xblade]

An open mind about censorship...?

akin to having an open mind towards discrimination.

:evil:

[Paratech]

Gamefreak, what do numbers have to do with anything? Millions of different groups get offended all the time, Christians, Americans, Asians, Africans, since when did being a big group exempt itself from criticism?

[Boltzmann]

And here we go again: religion demands special status. We can make fun of the president, but religious icons are off-limits. Its just like crackergate (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php).

[DinJerr]

Muslims need to realize it's this kind of bull**** that makes people not like them. Stop being douches and you won't be made fun of so much.
OK, I'll behave, just stay quiet and not contribute anything to this thread... wait what are you doing? Clever!

Your post is unacceptable for me.

DIE!!!!

Ps. I'm very peaceful.

NOW DIEEEEEE!!!!!!
HAHA! YOU FUNNY GUY I Kill You Last

Seriously though, South Park is a retarded show, and everyone who watch it are retards themselves. I know this for a fact because after just two seasons of it I am now mentally-handicapped. :dead:

[Xtreme2damax]

I think Boltzmann hit the nail head on. ;)

That's all I'm going to say since I don't like getting involved in these types of threads and debates.

[Strike105X]

^Then don't :P, the nail was hit several times on the head actually but it was ignored :lol:.

[cottonvibes]

I think you can, that's why there's a bazillion protestant churches. In the end religion is a way of life and the deity, seeing how the bible was written by mankind, nothing is absolute in the first place, so why can't people selectively take the good stuff and use this, discarding the bad? I'm all for it, and I can't see why you'd like to have those people become barbarians again. The people who are this selective and who actually have made religion to something this personal, I highly respect. They don't just follow one preacher, but actually gave things a proper thought to see how they could live life the best way, to themselves and most likely towards others. Hey, wait, reminds me of one of the core values of christians as well. And some take this even further, and they just keep the lessons as lessons of life, and discard the entire deity thing.

if you're just going to choose certain parts of the bible and scriptures to believe in, and ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you are not fully accepting the scriptures as god's holy and truthful word.

at that point you're already admitting:
a) the scriptures are flawed and not absolute
or
b) that you don't like the word of god

either way its pretty pointless at that point to stay religious.

[makotech222]

people who get bullied in school should join this faux-muslim cult so no one can make fun of them anymore :D

[Kaizen]

people who get bullied in school should join this faux-muslim cult so no one can make fun of them anymore :D

I take it that your school didn't have a gang of skinheads.

Some muslims were making fun of me in school in punjab as if it was so elite that I didn't understand the language.

The skinheads saw what happened, next day. Hospital trip for two of them.

[@ruantec]

if you're just going to choose certain parts of the bible and scriptures to believe in, and ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you are not fully accepting the scriptures as god's holy and truthful word.

at that point you're already admitting:
a) the scriptures are flawed and not absolute
or
b) that you don't like the word of god

either way its pretty pointless at that point to stay religious.

The Bible is splitted in two parts which is the new and old testament. Jesus came to earth to put an end to the old practices and start a new era. the old testament however has great and good stuff but lots of practices aren't needed as Jesus marked the end of it(sabbath for example).

looking it from a Bible point of view... after Jesus the old testament is obsolete but still usable if you want to learn from previous stories and also to know how things started.

Religions nowdays are full of confusions as many of there head people don't even read the Bible nor know what exactly is in there. lots of things that are happening today are written in the Bible(Earthquakes, destruction, criminality etc.) which are the sign of the end-days.


Matthew 24:6
"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come."

Matthew 24:7
"Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."

Matthew 24:8
"All these are the beginning of birth pains."



Earthquakes:

1.2010 02 27 - Offshore Maule, Chile - M 8.8
2.2010 01 12 - Haiti region - M 7.0 Fatalities 222,521
3.2009 09 30 - Southern Sumatra, Indonesia - M 7.5 Fatalities 1,117
4.2009 09 12 - Venezuela M 6.4
5.2008 05 12 - Eastern Sichuan, China - M 7.9 Fatalities 87,587
6.2006 05 26 - Java, Indonesia - M 6.3 Fatalities 5,749
7.2005 10 08 - Pakistan - M 7.6 Fatalities 86,000
8.2005 03 28 - Northern Sumatra, Indonesia - M 8.6 Fatalities 1,313
9.2004 12 26 - Sumatra-Andaman Islands - M 9.1 Fatalities 227,898




My favorite passages:

Matthew 24:11
"and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."



1 John 5:19:
"We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one."


just as the last passage says the entire world is under the control of the evil one and there's no way to change that atm. because of that many religions teach wrong believes to the people and they tend to follow blindly.

[makotech222]

u wouldnt get bullied if people knew u might bomb them

[Kaizen]

u wouldnt get bullied if people knew u might bomb them

You would here, gang fighting is rife and I know practically everone says they live in a rough area but this is a town of 4,000 where there's 2-3 gang deaths a week

[StriderVM]

Something is wrong with this news. Or their reaction anyway.

Actually Mohammed in South Park was already shown accurately. This is the Jesus and Superfriends episode. Which is Jesus and other religious/popular people in a Superfriends like setting.

qTsR820ofEQ

After that episode they were also "notified" that some groups were offended.

Now they show some guy in a teddy bear suit (This is probably poking fun at the people who doesn't want any "incorrect" depiction of Mohammed.

.... So sour grapes no matter what presentation eh? So Mohammed is now a guy in a bear suit?

[gamefreak94]

I take it that your school didn't have a gang of skinheads.

Some muslims were making fun of me in school in punjab as if it was so elite that I didn't understand the language.

The skinheads saw what happened, next day. Hospital trip for two of them.

I didn't know England was in the province of Punjab :rolleyes:

if you're just going to choose certain parts of the bible and scriptures to believe in, and ignore the stuff you don't agree with, then you are not fully accepting the scriptures as god's holy and truthful word.

at that point you're already admitting:
a) the scriptures are flawed and not absolute
or
b) that you don't like the word of god

either way its pretty pointless at that point to stay religious.

Muslims believe in every word of the Quran. From start to finish, nothing is omitted.

[cottonvibes]

Religions nowdays are full of confusions as many of there head people don't even read the Bible nor know what exactly is in there. lots of things that are happening today are written in the Bible(Earthquakes, destruction, criminality etc.) which are the sign of the end-days.


its easy to say a bunch of prophecies, and then have a few of them come true.
it doesn't mean anything.

if i flip a coin, and someone guesses it will land "heads" and someone says "tails", it is inevitable that one of them will get it right. it doesn't mean anything supernatural though.


just as the last passage says the entire world is under the control of the evil one and there's no way to change that atm. because of that many religions teach wrong believes to the people and they tend to follow blindly.

believing in religion is always "blindly".
there is no concrete evidence in support of these religions, you just have to blindly believe that these 2000 year old books are right.

if religion was correct, logical, and provable; then society wouldn't have to separate science and religion.
the fact that you can't call religion science, is good enough to not believe in it.

[Boltzmann]

Religions nowdays are full of confusions as many of there head people don't even read the Bible nor know what exactly is in there. lots of things that are happening today are written in the Bible(Earthquakes, destruction, criminality etc.) which are the sign of the end-days.

Pray tell me of one period of history where there no earthquakes, crimes, wars etc...

[@ruantec]

its easy to say a bunch of prophecies, and then have a few of them come true.
it doesn't mean anything.

if i flip a coin, and someone guesses it will land "heads" and someone says "tails", it is inevitable that one of them will get it right. it doesn't mean anything supernatural though.



believing in religion is always "blindly".
there is no concrete evidence in support of these religions, you just have to blindly believe that these 2000 year old books are right.

if religion was correct, logical, and provable; then society wouldn't have to separate science and religion.
the fact that you can't call religion science, is good enough to not believe in it.

I was just showing some of the stuff the Bible says as i have a good knowledge of the Bible and comparing them but i didn't say what i actually believe.

I myself believe in a CREATOR and not in EVOLUTION and the reason for that its because everything must have a creator. WE coders are the living proof that nothing just come to live without being created and no app ever appeared just like that but there's always a creator behind every single one.

also the real evil ones are "WE" because a weapon never killed a person but persons are the ones that kill people.. there are so many bad things in this world that is just hard to believe in something which may be the reason why people seek for the truth in different religions.

That is what i believe :thumb:

[Demigod]

WE coders are the living proof that nothing just come to live without being created and no app ever appeared just like that but there's always a creator behind every single one.
Strange, I'm a professional Java coder but I don't believe in a creator.

[Strike105X]

Question of the day if there is a Creator then who or how did the Creator was created and if that was influenced by another creator then same thing applies ....

[gamefreak94]

Question of the day is why there can't be a supreme creator above all things who created everything and is unsurpassed by everyone/everything else?

[Boltzmann]

Question of the day is why there can't be a supreme creator above all things who created everything and is unsurpassed by everyone/everything else?

Why can't you picture a universe that just exists, without being created by anything?

It would be a lot less complex (and I mean several orders of magnitude less complex) than your "supreme creator".

[gamefreak94]

Explain how the big bang took place. Science has proven that without time is merely a curvature of space, and hence when there was no universe there was no time either.

So yeah the big bang just happened out of literally nowhere and from it spawned the complex atomic structures which evolved into further exponentially complicated structures like stars, galaxies and other inter-stellar objects. And somehow Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorous and Sulfur came together in just the right amount under just the right conditions in a primordial soup from which spawned DNA and simple celled organisms which in turn clumped together here and there and evolved into the highly intricate lifeforms we see today.

What a wonderful story....

[Noja87]

sounds more convincing than a talking snake and a Jewish space zombie.

[Boltzmann]

Explain how the big bang took place. Science has proven that without time is merely a curvature of space, and hence when there was no universe there was no time either.

So yeah the big bang just happened out of literally nowhere and from it spawned the complex atomic structures which evolved into further exponentially complicated structures like stars, galaxies and other inter-stellar objects. And somehow Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorous and Sulfur came together in just the right amount under just the right conditions in a primordial soup from which spawned DNA and simple celled organisms which in turn clumped together here and there and evolved into the highly intricate lifeforms we see today.

What a wonderful story....

First of all, you're making no sense. Your physics is absolutely awful... ("proven that without time is merely a curvature of space"? this is not even a meaningful sentence in english, let alone physics).

Second, the big bang is still more probable than your infinitely complex "supreme creator" coming out of nowhere and then creating all the complexity you describe (furthermore: creating it in a way that seems like there was no creation act at all).

Anyway, this thread has degenerated, I'm leaving...

[@ruantec]

Strange, I'm a professional Java coder but I don't believe in a creator.

That depends on you of course... in my case am a professional C/C++/C#/VB/ASP.NET/WPF coder and i believe in a creator :p... as i said that's my believe but it doesn't mean others may do so... anyways do you think that your apps or code would ever write them selves? or will they just appear by a keyboard malfunction from your puter?

i belive that each time we write/create an app we show the existance of a creator as we "Create" new stuff... in my opinion nothing just appear but it must be created by a higher might.

[Kaizen]

I myself believe in a CREATOR and not in EVOLUTION and the reason for that its because everything must have a creator. WE coders are the living proof that nothing just come to live without being created and no app ever appeared just like that but there's always a creator behind every single one.


Sound logic and I can see it being true.

Question is, why should said creator be treated in the way we treat 'god'?

The source code for physics has remained the same, there has been no revision updates when scientists have reverse engineered the source variables.

If such a creator exists, he would have no real power inside this universe.
He would not be able to change the variables.

If I write a pi program, I could change the output by changing the program itself.
I could not however change the already written output in a previous execution.

Everything that exists now is outside the control of coder-god and he would not be invested in the output of this multi-verse.

[@ruantec]

I just use the "Coder" as an example.. of course it doesn't mean that it could apply in such cases as the world/humans but it gives the idea that a very mighty "Thing" must be behind this world that we believe it or not have just amazing things starting by nature, animals and ending in our body.... and i don't want to mention our brain and free will because that would be probably too much.

again its my own believe so its normal that many people may not agree.... which i think its normal :p

[IronRaven]

I came here just in time.
To witness a religion battle.
Bye.

[makotech222]

if you think of the universe as eternal ( like i do) then you can consider the possibility that the universe undergoes expansion and compression stages, ending/beginning in a bigbang to restart the cycle.

Eventually gravity will start to overpower the current expansion, and slowly all the matter will come together under gravity, then boom, another big bang.

[Demigod]

That depends on you of course... in my case am a professional C/C++/C# coder and i believe in a creator :p... as i said that's my believe but it doesn't mean others may do so... anyways do you think that your apps or code would ever write them selves? or will they just appear by a keyboard malfunction from your puter?
Computer programs are artificial human creations, thus it needs human beings for its existence. This is not the same in nature and what evolution has shown is that nature is capable of its own creating (it's one of the biggest paradigm shifts we've ever had). The theory of evolution is the only explanation that does not lead to an infinite regress of complexity (complex things being created by something more complex, created by something even more complex, ad infinum...). Evolution starts with something simple which then gets more complex, thus it's the only viable explanation for complexity. It's just like how a computer program is created, it starts out simple and then gets more complex. The development of computer programs that goes the other way around (programs being created from more complex programs) would be unthinkable because eventually you'd get to a program that is so complex that there would be no way to imagine how such a complex program could have existed in the first place. This is why a creator god is such a bad explanation. It doesn't solve the problem of complexity, it just makes it bigger.

[Squall-Leonhart]

if you think of the universe as eternal ( like i do) then you can consider the possibility that the universe undergoes expansion and compression stages, ending/beginning in a bigbang to restart the cycle.

Eventually gravity will start to overpower the current expansion, and slowly all the matter will come together under gravity, then boom, another big bang.


it'll tear before it rubber bands.

[@ruantec]

Computer programs are artificial human creations, thus it needs human beings for its existence. This is not the same in nature and what evolution has shown is that nature is capable of its own creating (it's one of the biggest paradigm shifts we've ever had). The theory of evolution is the only explanation that does not lead to an infinite regress of complexity (complex things being created by something more complex, created by something even more complex, ad infinum...). Evolution starts with something simple which then gets more complex, thus it's the only viable explanation for complexity. It's just like how a computer program is created, it starts out simple and then gets more complex. The development of computer programs that goes the other way around (programs being created from more complex programs) would be unthinkable because eventually you'd get to a program that is so complex that there would be no way to imagine how such a complex program could have existed in the first place. This is why a creator god is such a bad explanation. It doesn't solve the problem of complexity, it just makes it bigger.

Good explanation but still the most complex of applications do not create great apps by itself which is what i meant by a "CREATOR" :p.... but the thing is each time we think about it we end into an infinite line of different thoughts that usually doesn't lead us nowhere as we are unable to comprehend most of it.

Nature is there, things evolutionate and that's true but if we think about Nature we will end to the point where we may ask where Nature come from??? whom is the creator of it??? what caused/evolutionate to be what we call Nature now days????

in my opinion Evolution and the Big Bang are just a cheap excuse to explain at least something(again my opinion). many times i sit outside at nights and look at the sky and ask myself what we really are and were our intelligence come from... sadly i get no answers but it doesn't stop me to seek one.

[Xblade]

I was just showing some of the stuff the Bible says as i have a good knowledge of the Bible and comparing them but i didn't say what i actually believe.

I myself believe in a CREATOR and not in EVOLUTION and the reason for that its because everything must have a creator. WE coders are the living proof that nothing just come to live without being created and no app ever appeared just like that but there's always a creator behind every single one.

also the real evil ones are "WE" because a weapon never killed a person but persons are the ones that kill people.. there are so many bad things in this world that is just hard to believe in something which may be the reason why people seek for the truth in different religions.

That is what i believe :thumb:

There is enough proof against our "spontaneous appearances" on the earth.

Also, why cant you believe in both? Not enough dinosaurs discovered for you?

A belief that is proven wrong becomes a denial. :thumb:
For people comparing a god to a computer programmer, computer programmers don't make living things. /end discussion

[@ruantec]

There is enough proof against our "spontaneous appearances" on the earth.

Also, why cant you believe in both? Not enough dinosaurs discovered for you?

A belief that is proven wrong becomes a denial. :thumb:
For people comparing a god to a computer programmer, computer programmers don't make living things. /end discussion

My point wasn't to compare programming with the real deal.... but to give an idea that EVERYTHING is the result of something because the result of NOTHING will always be NOTHING and not SOMETHING... from NOTHING comes nothing and that's just the way it is. :p

in my case i think(my personal oppinion) that not believing in a Creator is believing that from NOTHING comes SOMETHING which is quite not logical to me.

[Linktothepast]

That depends on you of course... in my case am a professional C/C++/C#/VB/ASP.NET/WPF coder and i believe in a creator :p... as i said that's my believe but it doesn't mean others may do so... anyways do you think that your apps or code would ever write them selves? or will they just appear by a keyboard malfunction from your puter?

i belive that each time we write/create an app we show the existance of a creator as we "Create" new stuff... in my opinion nothing just appear but it must be created by a higher might.

@ruantec's arguments are probably the only reason i too haven't completely written off the probability of the existence of a creator. It's extremely unlikely such stuff to have happened on their own, it's like putting some random data in a dvd that will end up being starcraft 2!

Nevertheless i am extremely epiphylactic about every single religion there is out there to hold ground, including Christianity which i follow according to tradition here. It's roots (old testament) are quite rotten with extreme contradictions to imagine the new testament as a continuation (doesn't quite match with the old one). And if the roots are rotten is highly unlikely the main body (new testament) not to be rotten too.

[Strike105X]

I believe anyone is free to believe in whatever the f... they want as long as it doesn't disturb does around them or affect productivity and no one should impose there beliefs and non beliefs on to others if the other party is not interested.

/thread

[Hy-Def]

Good explanation but still the most complex of applications do not create great apps by itself which is what i meant by a "CREATOR" :p.... but the thing is each time we think about it we end into an infinite line of different thoughts that usually doesn't lead us nowhere as we are unable to comprehend most of it.

Nature is there, things evolutionate and that's true but if we think about Nature we will end to the point where we may ask where Nature come from??? whom is the creator of it??? what caused/evolutionate to be what we call Nature now days????

in my opinion Evolution and the Big Bang are just a cheap excuse to explain at least something(again my opinion). many times i sit outside at nights and look at the sky and ask myself what we really are and were our intelligence come from... sadly i get no answers but it doesn't stop me to seek one.

I love you @Ruantec. Beautiful explanation. Bravo.:thumb:

[gamefreak94]

First of all, you're making no sense.

Exactly!

Second, the big bang is still more probable than your infinitely complex "supreme creator" coming out of nowhere and then creating all the complexity you describe (furthermore: creating it in a way that seems like there was no creation act at all).

What makes more sense, a qualified electrician designing a circuit or all the bits and pieces of the circuit miraculously materializing out of thin air and magically coming together to form a perfectly working circuit board?

[Hy-Def]

The first option please!

[makotech222]

Exactly!



What makes more sense, a qualified electrician designing a circuit or all the bits and pieces of the circuit miraculously materializing out of thin air and magically coming together to form a perfectly working circuit board?

but can the electrician create the atoms that compose silicon and the rest of the computer components? by this analogy, youre ssaying that the universe already existed, but god made it more complex and orderly.


Also youre saying that complexity arose magically? you need to take a chemistry course i think, Thermodynamics especially. More complex molecules can arise when the necessary energy is available.

[@ruantec]

I love you @Ruantec. Beautiful explanation. Bravo.:thumb:

You welcome :thumb:

[Linktothepast]

but can the electrician create the atoms that compose silicon and the rest of the computer components? by this analogy, youre ssaying that the universe already existed, but god made it more complex and orderly.


Also youre saying that complexity arose magically? you need to take a chemistry course i think, Thermodynamics especially. More complex molecules can arise when the necessary energy is available.

Molecules follow what they see fit. Likewise machines obey our instructions because it is what they see fit to do according to the circumstances they are in. We provide them the energy and the desirable root and they simply follow it. If you ask me there is life in every single matter in this world since there is movement in both microscopic and macroscopic level (electrons and molecules - atoms/planets, stars). Movement => interaction => life. The real question though is why matter have likes and dislikes in the first place, it is like a lowly sub-atomic particle has a mind of it's own. Couldn't matter really be indifferent to everything around it? Why does it care in the first place? Answers to the questions above would probably explain the emergence of life. But still it wouldn't explain the emergence of matter and energy.

[Xblade]

My point wasn't to compare programming with the real deal.... but to give an idea that EVERYTHING is the result of something because the result of NOTHING will always be NOTHING and not SOMETHING... from NOTHING comes nothing and that's just the way it is. :p

in my case i think(my personal oppinion) that not believing in a Creator is believing that from NOTHING comes SOMETHING which is quite not logical to me.

The human mind isnt advanced enough to understand the concept, it never will be.

If something created us, then something created the something that created us.

etc. Pointless to think about it.

[@ruantec]

The human mind isnt advanced enough to understand the concept, it never will be.

If something created us, then something created the something that created us.

etc. Pointless to think about it.

That's not pointless... i think that at least try to know something isn't a bad thing but stopping at certain point and accepting something just because we can't get further isn't acceptable but just limiting ourselves.

[Proto]

@ruantec's arguments are probably the only reason i too haven't completely written off the probability of the existence of a creator. It's extremely unlikely such stuff to have happened on their own, it's like putting some random data in a dvd that will end up being starcraft 2!

Nevertheless i am extremely epiphylactic about every single religion there is out there to hold ground, including Christianity which i follow according to tradition here. It's roots (old testament) are quite rotten with extreme contradictions to imagine the new testament as a continuation (doesn't quite match with the old one). And if the roots are rotten is highly unlikely the main body (new testament) not to be rotten too.

Carbon chains and aminoacids are not random data. They have self assembling properties such that, if left on their own and under the right conditions they actually start assembling more complex structures by themselves. The only stochastic process involved is to wait for the birth of the first "self replicator" carbon chain. After that everything becomes much more simpler.


Good explanation but still the most complex of applications do not create great apps by itself which is what i meant by a "CREATOR" .... but the thing is each time we think about it we end into an infinite line of different thoughts that usually doesn't lead us nowhere as we are unable to comprehend most of it.

Nature is there, things evolutionate and that's true but if we think about Nature we will end to the point where we may ask where Nature come from??? whom is the creator of it??? what caused/evolutionate to be what we call Nature now days????

in my opinion Evolution and the Big Bang are just a cheap excuse to explain at least something(again my opinion). many times i sit outside at nights and look at the sky and ask myself what we really are and were our intelligence come from... sadly i get no answers but it doesn't stop me to seek one.

The point here is that you are looking at things from the wrong angle. The big bang marks the point at which the universe started. Although its kind of difficult to grasp, the question "what happened before the big bang" is kind of non sensical, given that time itself originated after the big bang. Explanation about how the universe came about are varied and we haven't arrived at a definite explanation; however they often require quantum physics knowledge in order to understand the principles involved during the very first nano seconds of the universe time, and possible inference of what happened then and "before". One of this is the concept of the self reproducing universe. (more on that here (http://home.student.utwente.nl/g.j.s.tillema/sciam.pdf))

k myself what we really are and were our intelligence come from...


here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genome)

[@ruantec]

Am not looking things at the wrong angle actually but i just believe in a CREATOR because just as i said from nothing comes nothing... whatever the argument people may find it leads always to the same fact that something higher may have produced the creation of it.

as a child i´ve always saw Einstein as my Idol and i always was amazed by his passages and say.. in one of his passages he mentioned about what he thinks of a CREATOR and his answer was quite interesting... he said that the more he work in his stuff the more he believes in a CREATOR which is the reason why i started to think about the possibility of a creator since years and not just accept a BIG BANG as the beginning of things because its totally not logical to me.

if you guys look at your arguments you will all see that all of them leads to the existence of a creator because all of you show something that caused the creation of x thing which if we try to get to the core of it we will end again to the "CREATOR".

again from nothing comes nothing and that's and undeniable fact.

[Boltzmann]

as a child i´ve always saw Einstein as my Idol and i always was amazed by his passages and say.. in one of his passages he mentioned about what he thinks of a CREATOR and his answer was quite interesting... he said that the more he work in his stuff the more he believes in a CREATOR which is the reason why i started to think about the possibility of a creator since years and not just accept a BIG BANG as the beginning of things because its totally not logical to me.

Would you please tell me where did Einstein say that he believes in a "CREATOR" (I'll accept without a non-caps creator as well)?

again from nothing comes nothing and that's and undeniable fact.

You still failed to explain who created your creator :rolleyes:

Did he come out of nothing?

BTW, virtual particles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle) come out of nothing - so there goes your "undeniable fact"...

[Proto]

again from nothing comes nothing and that's and undeniable fact.

No, it's just that you want to apply the law of conservation of energy (which is in fact an empyrical law, which has only been observed to work in the present universe conditions) to somewhere where only quantum physics(at best) could work. That's what I was referring to with the wrong angle.

BTW here's a very interesting intepretation of Einstein words by Richard Dawkins during this interview (http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript349_full.html#dawkins)

DAWKINS: Well, I think there are various ways of doing that. And Einstein, for example, was, as you know, always using the word God. Einstein used the word God as a kind of personification, a sort of literary personification of that which we don't yet understand. And so he recognized, and was awestruck by the deep problems of the universe, and the things that we don't understand. And he used the word God for that. And Einstein described himself as a very religious man. And in Einstein's sense, I too am a very religious man.

MOYERS: How is that?

DAWKINS: Because I too feel there's something deep and incomprehensible, and so far, uncomprehended at least. But what Einstein was not, and what I am not, is a believer in anything supernatural. Because I think that actually brings it down to a lower level. I think that the level of Einstein, where he was actually awestruck by the universe, and by the fundamental unsolved problems of the universe. To bring that down to the level of a personality who takes decisions, who designs things, who listens to prayers, who forgives sins, all of the things that supernatural gods are supposed to do, I think it diminishes it, and demeans it.

In other words, Einstein was using God as a personification of that which we have yet to known. Not as an intelligent designer.

[@ruantec]

@ - Boltzmann

I remember to have read that somewhere but i will look for it and see where i can find the passage again...

about your second comment i said that the seek of a creator will always lead to an infinite line of thoughts and we will never understand them... however skipping the fact of a creator its wrong in my eyes and everything has a creator regardless of what it is.

my believes are based in this:
aCOyq4YzBtY

sand whatever the change it gets from nature will never turn into a cpu and wood regardless of the evolution it gets will never turn into a table... things like that is what makes me believe in a creator who made what we know today.

i think the idea may be lost a bit of what i really believe... am not trying to seek for the creator of our creator but for the creator that created all the things we know... that is the point i would like to get even knowing that is impossible actually. we know that many things are impossible to comprehend but if we give up we will never know how far we could get.

again am expressing my believes and nobody is forced to believe what i do and even if my believe its not perfect other arguments have flaws aswell so i better keep with mine :p

[Proto]

sand whatever the change it gets from nature will never turn into a cpu and wood regardless of the evolution it gets will never turn into a table...

Maybe you skipped this?

Carbon chains and aminoacids are not random data. They have self assembling properties such that, if left on their own and under the right conditions they actually start assembling more complex structures by themselves. The only stochastic process involved is to wait for the birth of the first "self replicator" carbon chain. After that everything becomes much more simpler.


everything has a creator regardless of what it is.

I know the argument is cliched to death, but does the creator gets a creator too? And who creates the meta creator?

I remember to have read that somewhere but i will look for it and see where i can find the passage again...


The point Boltzmann is making is that Einstein never talked about a creator. The only thing he mentioned was about a God.

[@ruantec]

Originally Posted by myself
Carbon chains and aminoacids are not random data. They have self assembling properties such that, if left on their own and under the right conditions they actually start assembling more complex structures by themselves. The only stochastic process involved is to wait for the birth of the first "self replicator" carbon chain. After that everything becomes much more simpler.


Let me explain you... because i believe in a creator it doesn't mean that i do not accept evolution or changes that things around us get with the time to a certain point. changes are the results of different conditions that x thing gets. as you mentioned there they could start assembling more complex stuff which i agree aswell. the thing is am referring to a creator as someone who represent the highest position after our universe and the one responsible for all the things around us.

with my video or believe i never say that i don't believe in evolution which seems to be the reason you guys keep writing arguments against but what i wanted to show is that lots of complex stuff in our world never came from a simple big bang or just evolution but it must be something bigger involved.


I know the argument is cliched to death, but does the creator gets a creator too? And who creates the meta creator?


if you read my last post you will see that am not seeking for the creator of our creator but just for the one responsible for all the things we see and know about... also as i stated it will lead us to an infinite lines of thoughts and that's not what am seeking.


The point Boltzmann is making is that Einstein never talked about a creator. The only thing he mentioned was about a God.

yea... i remember i read that somewhere but am unsure of it right now as i don't have any proof to base my statement there so i will just take it back until i find any proof to base my statement.

[Proto]

if you read my last post you will see that am not seeking for the creator of our creator bug just for the one responsible for all the things we see and know about... also as i stated it will lead us to an infinite lines of thoughts and that's not what am seeking.

But in that case you are not explaining anything. You are just stuffing all of that we cannot currently understand and saying a creator did it. Unless you agree with Dawkin's interpretation of Einstein words and agree that God (or the creator) is just a personification of that which we don't know).

I prefer to say that the unknowns are just that, unknowns. Yes, we cannot currently explain many things about the universe. In that case we can either study about them or just leave it to subsequent generations. No need to get a hasty explanation now.

[@ruantec]

But in that case you are not explaining anything. You are just stuffing all of that we cannot currently understand and saying a creator did it. Unless you agree with Dawkin's interpretation of Einstein words and agree that God (or the creator) is just a personification of that which we don't know).

I prefer to say that the unknowns are just that, unknowns. Yes, we cannot currently explain many things about the universe. In that case we can either study about them or just leave it to subsequent generations. No need to get a hasty explanation now.

i would blame my bad English in this case i think. but am trying to express my idea and believe. lets forget Einstein, lets forget Dawkin's interpretation or any other scientific interpretation or theory and use our plain brains and logic.

sometimes people seek answers but they tend to look around while the answer is directly in there sight. if we think a bit about it we can't deny that whatever the excuse we use we will end to the conclusion that something created this or that.

if we look at our planet we can notice that it has all we need to allow us to live while other planets don't really have what humans actually need. the entire nature around us is mighty ruled wisely and even day and night goes in a cycle just as the different stations of the year etc. in fact everything has some sort of harmony and even the way our own body or brain is created lead me to the point that the change in us was incredibly well done.

of course we may come with the argument that things changed and created a more complex creation and so on but if you look at the video i posted you will see what i was trying to say with it. while the sands were exposed to extreme conditions they changed there structure and formed another one then machines did some work, then other changes etc. and at the end we have a beautiful Intel branded CPU. but who created those machines? and who exposed the sands pieces to that condition in order to change that way?

that is what i've been trying to explain here and also why i believe in a creator.. theories, arguments or explanations of it just explains the changes they got and the complexity of the structures after X change. again i accept those changes and fully comprehend them but am seeking beyond them and that is the point where i end believing in a creator.

again is my own believe and few may or may not believe but as any other here am trying to explain as good as i can why i do believe in a creator.

hope its more understandable now :p

[cottonvibes]

I myself believe in a CREATOR and not in EVOLUTION and the reason for that its because everything must have a creator.


you don't believe in evolution?
perhaps you should go and read some books or watch some educational films.

not believing in evolution is purely a sign of ignorance.
many christians and churches have already admitted to believing in evolution.

this is also a great example of the harm religion does, people want to believe their 2000 year old books so much that they disregard overwhelming evidence in favor of blind faith.


WE coders are the living proof that nothing just come to live without being created and no app ever appeared just like that but there's always a creator behind every single one.


no. being a coder and then saying everything has to be created, has nothing to do with each other.

all you are saying is "i cannot explain how the world and universe came to be, so there must be a creator!"

and if there always has to be a creator, then what about the creator of that creator?
using god to solve this question is a recursive fallacy.

if there is a god, then what created god? surely everything has to have a creator right? :rolleyes:

i suggest you watch this great series of videos on evolution that Dawkins did when he was young:
jHoxZF3ZgTo
YouTube - Ep 1: Waking Up in the Universe - Growing Up in the Universe - Richard Dawkins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHoxZF3ZgTo)

it will show you why what you are saying is wrong with various examples.
surely it will change your views on evolution.

[@ruantec]

Cotton, i already stated that i fully accept evolution at certain point and also responded most of your questions like the creator of the creator and so on in previous posts :p

When i said "NOT IN EVOLUTION" i mean it indirectly but it wasn't supposed to mean that i do not believe in it completely.... i just expressed myself a bit wrong i guess :p. also you guys are talking about GOD and in that way mixing religions in it while am talking about a CREATOR and taking religions out of the topic.

last but not least i've read lots of books and seeked about lots of theories so i know about evolution and theories in that area and not only that... i even have a good knowledge of the Bible as i read completely the Bible several times and still read some passages frequently when am doing comparations in my personal researches.

anyways its a bit late here guys so i better go to bed and lay down a bit as a hard day is awaiting me tomorrow at work with lots of things i have to code... my last words regarding this is that such discussions are neverending and we will always have different point of views which is great so i guess every one should believe what he/she wants to believe and be happy... at the end "WE" humans are not capable to actually comprehend all the mysteries of this universe but we always try to find some excuse to proof otherwise.

good night guys and thank you for the conversation :thumb:

[Spyhop]

Aw cmon! I'm gone for 2 days and you guys start a religious debate without me?
Bring me up to speed. :p

[Proto]

this is also a great example of the harm religion does, people want to believe their 2000 year old books so much that they disregard overwhelming evidence in favor of blind faith.

I think he was talking about God from a deist POV. AKA God without religion.

[Boltzmann]

Aw cmon! I'm gone for 2 days and you guys start a religious debate without me?
Bring me up to speed. :p

The theists don't believe in evolution but they do believe in a "CREATOR".

The atheists believe in evolution in the same way that we believe in the postman, and we have no need for a metaphysical "CREATOR" (or "creator").

There's not a lot to the debate, really. In fact, if no mod strikes it down this thread will rehash every concept relentlessly for a a couple hundred pages before petering out :p

[Proto]

Can we say that we all believe in the POSTMAN and leave it at that?

[cottonvibes]

I think he was talking about God from a deist POV. AKA God without religion.

the thing is, if you think of god in that way there's no reason to disbelieve in evolution.

i.e. whether or not god exists has nothing to do with evolution being true or not.
the conflict occurs when you consider the religious beliefs where god created the universe and world in 6 days and rested on the 7th.... or other religious tales.


Dawkins was once asked:
"What would you do if you died and you found out there is a god, and met him face to face?"

Dawkins then replied:
"I would first ask god why he hid himself so well. And why he made everything in such a way where it would look like he didn't exist.... I will then proceed to ask him questions about science and etc..."
(I paraphrased this since i don't remember the exact words...)


Anyways I personally don't dismiss the possibility that there can be a god (and most atheists also consider the possibility that there can be one).
But if there is one then surely he is not the one of the popular Abrahamic religions.
I'd go as far as to say that people that do fully believe in these religions are either ignorant (in that they lack the knowledge to make an informed decision) or stubborn/foolish (in that they know the overwhelming evidence against them, yet they still wish to blindly believe in things).

btw this post isn't talking about @ruantec's beliefs, but just religious people in general.

[cottonvibes]

Can we say that we all believe in the POSTMAN and leave it at that?

I believe many religious people are just religious because they lack the knowledge to make informed decisions.
And if they were to analyze and think about this information, then the intelligent ones would change their beliefs.

Its embarrassing to live in a world where some people believe the world is flat, just because their bible tells them so.

This is also why i hate when these religious threads are closed.
"Hey lets close this thread because people want to believe things without evidence, and they're entitled to their own beliefs."

Yes they are entitled to their own beliefs, but that doesn't make them correct. And that also doesn't mean that they can't be told alternative viewpoints that could make them change their own.


Sadly many religious people have been brainwashed during their upbringing to believe their religion as absolute and to not question it. If you question it you won't be saved, or you're evil, etc...

I was born into a christian family and went to christian school for my whole life until i started university.
I know the extents on which these brain-washers try to impose their blind-faith beliefs upon others.

I once had to do a presentation on evolution in my christian highschool, the teacher actually wanted me to argue against evolution because of what the bible said.
I instead did the opposite and my teacher got very upset with my presentation which was very well presented with examples and evidence of evolution; as well as the thought that you can still be a christian and believe in evolution.
I got a bad grade on that presentation because i went against the blind-faith beliefs of that teacher.

It is very sad that there are many cases like this where religion hinders science, and there are religious people that actively go against logic and evidence in order to defend their religion based on blind-faith.

[ElijahTW]

I believe many religious people are just religious because they lack the knowledge to make informed decisions.

Most people are just religious because they have been told to be since they were born.

"A baby cannot be Christian."

[Xblade]

Most people are just religious because they have been told to be since they were born.

"A baby cannot be Christian."
Brainwashing is a common event in christian homes.

The children don't have a choice, and are forced to comply with their parents who were more likely then not also forced or became religious during a hard time in their life.

[Kaizen]

The human mind isnt advanced enough to understand the concept, it never will be.


Quite false.

Can we see the fourth dimension?
(it's not time noobs, it's space extrusion)

Yes, we can imagine it quite clearly, even though we never will see.

We can see the shadows of two dimensions cast onto a three dimensional plane.
We can see the shadows of three dimensions cast onto a three dimensional plain.

From these two, we can draw the shadows of the fourth dimension onto a three dimensional plane.

Likewise, we never be able to see 'the world out with this one, but we can truly understand its rules, appearance and technicalities of all possible types.

I think God explains it quite well here:
lwL_zi9JNkE

[Xblade]

Quite false.

Can we see the fourth dimension?
(it's not time noobs, it's space extrusion)

Yes, we can imagine it quite clearly, even though we never will see.

We can see the shadows of two dimensions cast onto a three dimensional plane.
We can see the shadows of three dimensions cast onto a three dimensional plain.

From these two, we can draw the shadows of the fourth dimension onto a three dimensional plane.

Likewise, we never be able to see 'the world out with this one, but we can truly understand its rules, appearance and technicalities of all possible types.

I think God explains it quite well here:
lwL_zi9JNkE

Understanding the creation of everything is akin to being able to count to infinity.

[cottonvibes]

So yeah the big bang just happened out of literally nowhere and from it spawned the complex atomic structures which evolved into further exponentially complicated structures like stars, galaxies and other inter-stellar objects. And somehow Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorous and Sulfur came together in just the right amount under just the right conditions in a primordial soup from which spawned DNA and simple celled organisms which in turn clumped together here and there and evolved into the highly intricate lifeforms we see today.


the funny point that creationists bring up is that god had to have created us because everything is so perfect, and our world is just-right for us to live in, so it had to have been designed like this.

the truth is that the universe is a huge death-trap!
you cannot live in 99.99999999...% of the universe.
not only can you not live, but most places of the universe is instant-death for us!

but in the small percentage of the universe where it is possible for life to emerge, life did so on at least one planet (Earth).

If a personal god truly designed the universe and human-life, does it make sense that 99.9999..% of the known universe is instant death for us?

And does it also make sense that the universe is so vast, if the personal god created life with a focus on humanity?

Also if humans were truly designed, then why do we have so much design flaws?
There are many people with back-pain, a possible explanation is because we have only recently been walking-up-right through evolution, and it hadn't had enough time to perfect itself.
An omniscient designer wouldn't have designed this flaw...

Another flaw is we breathe and eat through the same passages in our body, making it extremely easy for people to choke and die. This is a pretty bad design flaw....

[Kaizen]

Understanding the creation of everything is akin to being able to count to infinity.

No it's not. Co-incidentally, yes it is. Just not in the way you mean and imply.
Do you have to count to infinity first to understand that 20 is 19 more than 1?

I have the ability to count to infinity but I don't have to do it to perfectly master the simple number system.
To correctly phrase wrong logic - To infinitely count. Since infinity is not a possibility in anything.

I can understand any cross section of numbers I focus on, regardless of complexity to the very conceptual heights of infinity.
I edit hex files and write applications from working out encrypted data puzzles. I have the ability to understand anything possible, given time.

If any problem about the 'outside-verse' presents itself, I can focus and reason with logic as to the data I see and fully understand it.
ie; you're not researching here and just making **** up

I can understand anything any Creator did, the same way as many smart people figured out the complications of building an electron microscope or that Flajistin was a misconception of the fire god and the missing element was heat+oxygen.

Things entirely outside all perceivable logic can be reasoned. Just look at your computer screen.

[Xblade]

No it's not.

I have the ability to count to infinity. Or to correctly phrase wrong logic.
To infinitely count.

I can understand any cross section of numbers I focus on to the very conceptual heights of infinity. I edit hex files and write applications from working out encrypted data puzzles. I have the ability to understand anything possible, given time.

If any problem about the 'outside-verse' presents itself, I can focus and reason with logic as to the data I see and fully understand it.

ie; you're not researching here and just making **** up
Understanding the concept of infinity, and being able to count to it are two very different things.

If this world was created by a being then who created then being, and who created the being that created that being etc.

Just as you would never finish counting to infinity, you would never be able to grasp the beginning of all things.

No amount of "research" or speculation will ever change that.

[Kaizen]

Understanding the concept of infinity, and being able to count to it are two very different things.

If this world was created by a being then who created then being, and who created the being that created that being etc.

Just as you would never finish counting to infinity, you would never be able to grasp the beginning of all things.

No amount of "research" or speculation will ever change that.

I have an A in advanced higher physics. ( for the non scots, it's year 1 degree, 4 core physics modules)
I think that infinity is perfectly within my grasp.

you would never be able to grasp the beginning of all things.


Yes I would. Would I actually do it? No.

But I ****ING COULD.

Post 2:
Cottonchibes.
I think I'll walk out now. He's foolish and stubborn.

Post a perfect video, 7 minutes wrong, he quotes it in 4.

I'm a very, very very smart man. I would be a fool to mastermind with one.

(7 minutes 'wrong' was deliberate)

[Xblade]

I have an A in advanced higher physics. ( for the non scots, it's year 1 degree, 4 core physics modules)
I think that infinity is perfectly within my grasp.



Yes I would. Would I actually do it? No.

But I ****ING COULD.
You overestimate yourself. :drool:

[Paratech]

I believe many religious people are just religious because they lack the knowledge to make informed decisions.
And if they were to analyze and think about this information, then the intelligent ones would change their beliefs.


So you find having "Faith" in the Christian God a sign of a lack of knowledge, and that your "intellectualism" gives you "Wisdom" to not need faith?

But look at the many times people have "Faith" outside of religion, faith in getting a good education, faith in choosing the right vocation, faith in choosing the right school, the right company to work for, spouse, whether or not to have children, how to save money for retirement.

If intellect and science are so great, why do they fail at making life better by eliminating poverty, homelessness, starvation, why do diseases outsmart the best minds.

If people can have faith outside of religion they can have faith in Christianity. Intellect and science cannot save the world, in fact it will lead to Armageddon, but faith, hope, love, mercy, and compassion, they can save the world.

Intellect is not sinful, but depending on intellect alone is sinful. Knowledge is not everything, but faith is the beginning to everything good.

[Xblade]

So you find having "Faith" in the Christian God a sign of a lack of knowledge, and that your "intellectualism" gives you "Wisdom" to not need faith?

But look at the many times people have "Faith" outside of religion, faith in getting a good education, faith in choosing the right vocation, faith in choosing the right school, the right company to work for, spouse, whether or not to have children, how to save money for retirement.

If intellect and science are so great, why do they fail at making life better by eliminating poverty, homelessness, starvation, why do diseases outsmart the best minds.

If people can have faith outside of religion they can have faith in Christianity. Intellect and science cannot save the world, in fact it will lead to Armageddon, but faith, hope, love, mercy, and compassion, they can save the world.

Intellect is not sinful, but depending on intellect alone is sinful. Knowledge is not everything, but faith is the beginning to everything good.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling. :drool:

[Paratech]

So explaining the Christian faith is trolling?

[Xblade]

So explaining the Christian faith is trolling?

You confused hope with faith........

[cottonvibes]

Just as you would never finish counting to infinity, you would never be able to grasp the beginning of all things.

No amount of "research" or speculation will ever change that.

to grasp the idea of something, and to be omniscient are 2 different things.

humans cannot be omniscient, and most-likely no material being can be omniscient.

to know everything infinitely means that you will know everything about every single particle of the universe, and you will know the thoughts and abstractions thought up by any living life.
to keep that information will require more particles than the matter of the universe (unless there is a more advanced way to store information that a more advanced civilization will know).

Omniscience about our universe is only practical when you consider a god or deity that is not limited to the universe. One who lives out-side of this universe.

Anyways to get back to the point, understanding this universe and knowing everything about the universe are 2 different things.
We will never 100% know for sure everything about this universe, but we can learn a lot about it, and have very good theories on how things came to be.

[Xblade]

to grasp the idea of something, and to be omniscient are 2 different things.

humans cannot be omniscient, and most-likely no material being can be omniscient.

to know everything infinitely means that you will know everything about every single particle of the universe, and you will know the thoughts and abstractions thought up by any living life.
to keep that information will require more particles than the matter of the universe (unless there is a more advanced way to store information that a more advanced civilization will know).

Omniscience about our universe is only practical when you consider a god or deity that is not limited to the universe. One who lives out-side of this universe.

Anyways to get back to the point, understanding this universe and knowing everything about the universe are 2 different things.
We will never 100% know for sure everything about this universe, but we can learn a lot about it, and have very good theories on how things came to be.
Understanding the beginning of things would require one to know everything.

[Spyhop]

Indeed. It seems the limit of our discovery is the big bang. It's, so far, considered impossible to know what events led to the big bang and it's somewhat impossible for us to observe the next big crunch (if that, indeed, the way of it.)

[Paratech]

You confused hope with faith........

Faith is believing without seeing...

[Xblade]

Faith is believing without seeing...

Faith: "I know that I'm gonna pass my math test today"

Hope: "I hope I'll pass my math test today"


and you meant "believing without proof" which would categorize religion, not faith.

[Spyhop]

Faith is believing without seeing...

That's precisely why faith is stupid. I'm sure you think that's very deep and romantic. In reality, it means you're easily duped. You'll believe what you're told because if it sounds nice.

[cottonvibes]

So you find having "Faith" in the Christian God a sign of a lack of knowledge, and that your "intellectualism" gives you "Wisdom" to not need faith?

i find having faith in the christian god as a sign of lacking knowledge yes.
if you've ever taken a world religions class, and studied the many different religions out there, you can find their similarities, contradictions, and how it just makes sense that these religions were man-made.

i think the more someone knows about science and religion, the more repetitive evidence they get to not be religious, or at the very-least not religious in an abrahamic faith.

there is an old chinese proverb:
"The frog in the well won't know the ocean."

it basically is a story about a frog who has been living in a well its whole life ends up meeting a frog that has gone out and seen the world.
The frog that has seen the world tries to tell the frog in the well about the ocean, and the frog in the well can't contemplate how big the ocean is because its only seen its well.
So the frogs response when it is told about the ocean is "so the ocean is like twice as big as my well?"


But look at the many times people have "Faith" outside of religion, faith in getting a good education, faith in choosing the right vocation, faith in choosing the right school, the right company to work for, spouse, whether or not to have children, how to save money for retirement.

If intellect and science are so great, why do they fail at making life better by eliminating poverty, homelessness, starvation, why do diseases outsmart the best minds.


science does not have all the answers.
but this argument is in no-way in favor of religion.

sure science can't cure every disease, but guess what? prayer can't cure any disease ;p
(there have even been studies on the effectiveness of prayer, and they always come up with prayer not doing anything)

faith on the other hand 'could' be beneficial in some cases.
for example, the will to live when you are sick might help your body get better.
but this in no-way should be explained by supernatural reasons.
science is also looking into these cases, and observing.
as mentioned science does not have all the answers.


If people can have faith outside of religion they can have faith in Christianity. Intellect and science cannot save the world, in fact it will lead to Armageddon, but faith, hope, love, mercy, and compassion, they can save the world.


intellect and science can save the world, more-so than prayer to a god that might or might not exist.

there is a super-volcano in the united states that if it erupts could kill most of the US population.
if this volcano erupts do you really think prayer or faith is going to save anyone?
it will be science's ability to predict the eruption, and ideas to prevent catastrophe that will be saving lives.


love, mercy, and compassion i believe are very important.
but god has nothing to do with such things.
an atheist can love, just like religious people can murder.


Intellect is not sinful, but depending on intellect alone is sinful. Knowledge is not everything, but faith is the beginning to everything good.

blind-faith is a dead end.
blind-faith is believing something without evidence, and therefor counter-productive.

[Strike105X]

Faith: "I know that I'm gonna pass my math test today"

Hope: "I hope I'll pass my math test today"


and you meant "believing without proof" which would categorize religion, not faith.

Not that i want to take a certain someone's side but ever heard of an polysemantic word (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/polysemantic+word) :rolleyes:...

[cottonvibes]

Understanding the beginning of things would require one to know everything.

no.

to understand the beginning of the universe does not mean i have to know everything.
it does not mean for example, i need to know exactly whats in my refrigerator.
That is irrelevant to understanding the beginning of the universe.

[Demigod]

This is also why i hate when these religious threads are closed.
"Hey lets close this thread because people want to believe things without evidence, and they're entitled to their own beliefs."
I'm not opposed to religious threads, as long as it's kept civilized (no name-calling, insults, etc.). If everyone argues in a respectable manner then I see no reason why they can't stay open.

Sadly many religious people have been brainwashed during their upbringing to believe their religion as absolute and to not question it. If you question it you won't be saved, or you're evil, etc...

I was born into a christian family and went to christian school for my whole life until i started university.
I know the extents on which these brain-washers try to impose their blind-faith beliefs upon others.

I once had to do a presentation on evolution in my christian highschool, the teacher actually wanted me to argue against evolution because of what the bible said.
I instead did the opposite and my teacher got very upset with my presentation which was very well presented with examples and evidence of evolution; as well as the thought that you can still be a christian and believe in evolution.
I got a bad grade on that presentation because i went against the blind-faith beliefs of that teacher.

It is very sad that there are many cases like this where religion hinders science, and there are religious people that actively go against logic and evidence in order to defend their religion based on blind-faith.
I think Christianity will eventually accept evolution as fact. There is no way to stop the relentless march of science and the truth will ultimately prevail. It might take a while to do so but it'll happen. Most of the world already accepts evolution, it's just the US that's still holding out (I believe it'll eventually fall when the US education system is overhauled).

I was brought up in a Christian environment as well, attended sunday school and learned to fear God. For a long time I was afraid to make the leap to atheism due to fear of God's retribution (the thought of eternal punishment stopped me from making the final transition for months). However, one day I decided that this fear was irrational and silly I finally shed my old belief system, and I'm now a hardcore atheist.

However, I'm still interested in religion in general, and Christianity in particular. I'm keenly interested in biblical archeology and scholarship and there is a wealth if information to be found there. The fact is, Christians today are never taught the real facts of their religion. They receive a lot of devotional education in church along with propaganda, but no one ever talks about what's actually been discovered about the bible in the past two hundred years. I mean, most Christians today still think the four gospels were written by the apostles (they're actually anonymous, the titles were added later on). Most Christians don't know that the Book of Isaiah was written by three different people. Most Christians don't know that there are up to 20 other gospels about Jesus. And most Christians don't know that many of the letters of Paul in the NT are actually forgeries (letters written by others in his name). What's depressing is that most ministers and pastors even know this stuff (it's standard material in theological seminaries and universities) but they never educate their flock, I think for social reasons (my dad, an established pastor, admits that there are mistakes in the bible but says he would dare not admit this in church). There seems to be some hidden ad-hoc standards for everyone to follow and no one wants to stray from it and risk being branded a heretic.

[Proto]

to understand the beginning of the universe does not mean i have to know everything.
it does not mean for example, i need to know exactly whats in my refrigerator.
That is irrelevant to understanding the beginning of the universe.

Actually, there is a so called Theory of Everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything) that alone would explain all physical phenomena, or unify all the theories that explain the fundamental interactions of nature (electromagnetism, strong nuclear interaction, weak nuclear interaction and gravity) something similar to what happened when Maxwell unified Electricity and magnetism, but in an universal scale.

[cottonvibes]

There seems to be some hidden ad-hoc standards for everyone to follow and no one wants to stray from it and risk being branded a heretic.

which is another big problem with religion.

science is constantly evolving while it gains new information, while religion is meant to stay the same.
if religion changes, then it means it was not correct in the first place. obviously this brings concern to believers, since what they're supposed to be believing is god's word and truthful.

i think a lot of christians will eventually believe in evolution, but there will still be those that don't.
just like there are those that still believe the world is flat.

the combination of brain-washing + fear + ignorance + people not thinking for themselves is what will keep religion alive for a long time.
i do believe though as society gets wiser and more knowledgeable, we will see less and less people believing in religion.

[@ruantec]

The main problem is that most of the people when they see the word creator there first thought is religion... in my case i take religions out of this usually but i use the Bible for comparations when i find something of interest.


just like there are those that still believe the world is flat.

now that you mention the believe people had in the past that our world is flat it makes me remember a research i did several years ago because after reading the Bible for the first time i found something very interesting in it. in the past science wasn't that Advanced and people actually believed in the theory that our world is flat or that some super-big elephants hold it etc. something we know now that isn't true.

now what did i find? well i remember few passages that made me think quite a bit:


Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

English Standard Version (ESV): Job 26:10 He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.


so before someone start to mix religion here i want to make clear that am making a comparation between what i saw in the Bible and what few people still believe nowdays. as i said yesterday i believe that things Evolutionate constantly and so i do believe in Evolution at a certain point.

since long time i love to look at the sky through a window in my bedroom and always think about everything specially science since i find it quite interesting but i do not believe things just because they are written. my main problem is that am aware of how advanced we are but the question is how much do we know about the universe???? when i think about it and the complexity of it i end always at the same point were i know that in fact we humans know something but at the end we know nothing in comparation to the complexity this universe have to offer.

humans admit that our knowledge isn't capable to comprehend the mysteries of this universe and so how accurate would the Evolution theory be???? well as every theory is the effort of many people to bring light to some area yet still we are in darkness at many points were we do not know were to go.

while Evolution could possibly be killed with the argument that humans aren't capable to understand the mysteries of this universe(as Evolution is based in human knowledges) the possibility of a creator can't be written off just like that because everytime we try to look at the core of anything we will end at the same point no matter how hard we try to proof otherwise. because of that i do believe in Evolution at a certain level but not fully.

before people start asking... no am not an atheist nor i consider myself one of them.


However, I'm still interested in religion in general, and Christianity in particular. I'm keenly interested in biblical archeology and scholarship and there is a wealth if information to be found there. The fact is, Christians today are never taught the real facts of their religion. They receive a lot of devotional education in church along with propaganda, but no one ever talks about what's actually been discovered about the bible in the past two hundred years. I mean, most Christians today still think the four gospels were written by the apostles (they're actually anonymous, the titles were added later on). Most Christians don't know that the Book of Isaiah was written by three different people. Most Christians don't know that there are up to 20 other gospels about Jesus. And most Christians don't know that many of the letters of Paul in the NT are actually forgeries (letters written by others in his name). What's depressing is that most ministers and pastors even know this stuff (it's standard material in theological seminaries and universities) but they never educate their flock, I think for social reasons (my dad, an established pastor, admits that there are mistakes in the bible but says he would dare not admit this in church). There seems to be some hidden ad-hoc standards for everyone to follow and no one wants to stray from it and risk being branded a heretic.

The main problem is that in many religions people believe what the pastor say and they do not care to read the Bible and find out if is true or not what x guy told them is true. a Religion i find simpathy for are the Jehova Witnesses as everything they've told me so far isn't based in there own words but everything they talk its by using passages of the Bible and basing there statements on them. because of that i can see they know the Bible and i guess they will teach people based on the Bible just as they do at other people door-steps.

i think it is important that religions people learn about the Bible and seek truth in it if they believe in them otherwise it doesn't make sense to believe in something and let other tell you what its written in as you will never know if is true or not and that's just sad.

[cottonvibes]

there is no evidence of a creator, but there is overwhelming evidence of evolution.

if there is a creator then he purposely made the world's life look like if it evolved through evolution.
it must be a great joke he's playing, "hey i'll create all life on earth in an instant, but put fossil records and other false-evidence in order to fool the human race!"


humans admit that our knowledge isn't capable to comprehend the mysteries of this universe and so how accurate would the Evolution theory be????

well first of all, we don't know if the human race is capable of fully comprehending our universe (as in finding a theory of everything).
obviously not every human is capable of understanding the complexities of our universe, but the brightest minds probably can.

if not now, then future generations.
our society will eventually get to creating genetically modified super-humans. these super-humans can achieve things our current society never thought possible.


my second point is that whether or not we understand our universe's mysteries, says nothing about whether or not evolution is true.


before people start asking... no am not an atheist nor i consider myself one of them.

i don't think anyone considers you an atheist.
your beliefs are obviously not what atheists believe.


i think it is important that religions people learn about the Bible and seek truth in it if they believe in them otherwise it doesn't make sense to believe in something and let other tell you what its written in as you will never know if is true or not and that's just sad.

i agree that religious people should read their religious scriptures, so they know what their religion is truly about.

the more an intelligent christian reads about the bible, the more likely he will realize its ridiculous.

[@ruantec]

there is no evidence of a creator, but there is overwhelming evidence of evolution.

if there is a creator then he purposely made the world's life look like if it evolved through evolution.
it must be a great joke he's playing, "hey i'll create all life on earth in an instant, but put fossil records and other false-evidence in order to fool the human race!"


That is the main problem of us humans... we expect somewhat a person-like creator that could give us answer to all our questions but we never ever think about the possibility of what is our creator??? can our creator give us answers??? can we understand it??? its our creator like us and able to give answers???

those questions are the ones we should ask ourselves first before we start avoiding the possibility of a creator... at the same time its the reason why people keep misunderstanding what am looking for. am seeking for a creator but am aware that it may not be what am expecting to see as nobody knows what it is. we just throw complains on why GOD don't give us answers but we actually do not care to even try to find out why is that way.

A similar scenario is DEATH... while every single human would like to live forever people don't even care to think about the consequences of being immortal for our world. i consider death a rule that keep a balance in our environment and the same goes for the SURVIVOR instinct that keep our race alive in this planet... both of them actually achieve there goals in my eyes but just as i said nobody actually cares about the other side of the coin which is what happen when people think in GOD.


well first of all, we don't know if the human race is capable of fully comprehending our universe (as in finding a theory of everything).
obviously not every human is capable of understanding the complexities of our universe, but the brightest minds probably can.

if not now, then future generations.
our society will eventually get to creating genetically modified super-humans. these super-humans can achieve things our current society never thought possible.


We humans have the will but not the capacity to comprehend everything. there are several problems that prevent us from doing so. one of them is the size of the universe and the complexity of it which overpass by a big magnitude what our science, technology and brain are capable to comprehend or do.

the option of super-humans its not likely to happen as we humans tend to destroy each others which is something that seems to be in our nature. because of that it is unlikely that we will ever reach the level where we can say "We know something". it is true that we have some knowledge but still that knowledge is nothing in comparison to what we should learn in order to comprehend what's really behind the scenes.

in my case i like to look at the core of things and go beyond explanations. Evolution answer some of my questions but not all of them and at the same time it limits me at a certain point. because of that i accept the knowledge as its the effort of humans that did there best to try at least to explain something but at the same time i recognize that its nothing in comparison to what we should know in order to claim that we have some knowledge.

people tend to misunderstand my words when i say "CREATOR" and believe am talking about a GOD.. but in reality am seeking for the responsible of all we know. sometimes i look at the end of some movies where the camera start to zoom out of the planet, then galaxies and then something or creatures comes. that view isn't quite true but at the same time isn't quite wrong if we look at our bodies and how many energy and life do we have in it. but its just a thought an nothing more as there's nothing we can proof on the matter.

[Boltzmann]

Actually, there is a so called Theory of Everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything) that alone would explain all physical phenomena, or unify all the theories that explain the fundamental interactions of nature (electromagnetism, strong nuclear interaction, weak nuclear interaction and gravity) something similar to what happened when Maxwell unified Electricity and magnetism, but in an universal scale.

Though its still an open question whether a TOE would predict all the physical constants (e.g., planck's constant) or we'll still be subject to anthropic fine-tuning arguments (in which case the constants would still have to be empirically determine and we'd have to explain why they're conducive to life).

[Linktothepast]

So you find having "Faith" in the Christian God a sign of a lack of knowledge, and that your "intellectualism" gives you "Wisdom" to not need faith?

But look at the many times people have "Faith" outside of religion, faith in getting a good education, faith in choosing the right vocation, faith in choosing the right school, the right company to work for, spouse, whether or not to have children, how to save money for retirement.

If intellect and science are so great, why do they fail at making life better by eliminating poverty, homelessness, starvation, why do diseases outsmart the best minds.

If people can have faith outside of religion they can have faith in Christianity. Intellect and science cannot save the world, in fact it will lead to Armageddon, but faith, hope, love, mercy, and compassion, they can save the world.

Intellect is not sinful, but depending on intellect alone is sinful. Knowledge is not everything, but faith is the beginning to everything good.

If i understand correctly the way you think i would say that you are afraid of knowledge for it's power. The fact that knowledge has no ethical point it frightens you, that it can be used both for good and evil, it just depends on the person that carries that knowledge. Corrupt politicians is one such an example, and yes corrupt scientists can do at least the same amount of damage an idiot would do, not to say even more by having the advantage of bearing the knowledge to make it more effective. And you think that without religion there can be no ethics in a person, is that correct?

I don't know about others but personally i think that my agnostic view made me more sympathizing to the people around me and their sufferings. It makes you think of what a damage you do to a person if you make his little time on this earth miserable or even end it (without eternal life, souls, etc. in the equation). Surely not everyone is thinking this way, but dismissing religion doesn't automatically make you a bad person. Neither accepting religion automatically makes you a good one either and the various religious wars are a good testament to that.

So while knowledge = power and power can indeed corrupt a person, the dismissal of it's existence doesn't really solve the problem, it just puts it under a rag. There are risks involved every minute in our lives, based on the fact that we are mortal frail beings, which should not hamper us to live our lives to the full extend. Should we dismiss everything good that knowledge provided us out of fear of the misuse of that knowledge? Would you support the notion to ban all airplanes out of fear for a terrorist attack? Because by your sentence "Intellect is not sinful, but depending on intellect alone is sinful", you seem to be afraid of knowledge and it's power.

[Demigod]

since long time i love to look at the sky through a window in my bedroom and always think about everything specially science since i find it quite interesting but i do not believe things just because they are written. my main problem is that am aware of how advanced we are but the question is how much do we know about the universe???? when i think about it and the complexity of it i end always at the same point were i know that in fact we humans know something but at the end we know nothing in comparation to the complexity this universe have to offer.
Evolution is a scientic theory, the same as any other scientific theory. Whether you believe it or not is up to you and it's fine if you are a skeptic. Skepticism is considered a good thing in science and is encouraged, even for well-established theories (as long as that skepticism doesn't turn into denial). I personally believe the Theory of Evolution is true due to the overwhelming amount of evidence behind it. No other theory even comes close.

while Evolution could possibly be killed with the argument that humans aren't capable to understand the mysteries of this universe(as Evolution is based in human knowledges) the possibility of a creator can't be written off just like that because everytime we try to look at the core of anything we will end at the same point no matter how hard we try to proof otherwise. because of that i do believe in Evolution at a certain level but not fully.
No, a creator cannot be written off (mostly because it's just a philosophical idea, beyond the grasp of human knowledge) but there is also no reason to believe it. Adding a creator to the mix doesn't solve the question of existence and complexity, it only adds to it. It makes the problem infinitely bigger and you're only left with more questions at the end. I really see no value in holding such a belief, but that's just me.

BTW, do you think your definition of a "creator" can be squared with what science calls "nature" (basically the way Einstein and Hawkings use the term "god")?

[@ruantec]

Demigod, please have a look at the beginning of my post #213 as i added some text to it few moments ago. about the Evolution... as i said several times i accept that theory and even agree with some of the fact that such a theory has to offer.. however theory is theory until there's nothing against it that could possibly prove it wrong. anyways in my case i just accept the Evolution theory but it doesn't give me the answers am seeking and because of that am seeking a creator which is the next possible logical answer i could get.


BTW, do you think your definition of a "creator" can be squared with what science calls "nature" (basically the way Einstein and Hawkings use the term "god")?

No but i may be wrong. am looking beyond that and looking for the creator of the universe. of course am not expecting answers nor any evidences that could lead me to the exact creator but each time i see our Nature then i start to believe more in something that could be the one responsible for all we have today.

[Boltzmann]

No but i may be wrong. am looking beyond that and looking for the creator of the universe. of course am not expecting answers nor any evidences that could lead me to the exact creator but each time i see our Nature then i start to believe more in something that could be the one responsible for all we have today.

So would you be okay if this creator turned out to be Azathoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth) (the "Blind Idiot God")?

Or do you already know who the creator is?

[@ruantec]

So would you be okay if this creator turned out to be Azathoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azathoth) (the "Blind Idiot God")?

Or do you already know who the creator is?

If i knew our creator i wouldn't bother to write all the things i've written so far but instead i would just share my knowledge with you guys.

as for Azathoth: if he were our creator at least i would've now an explanation to idiocy in our planet.

[Cid Highwind]

(...)
Another flaw is we breathe and eat through the same passages in our body, making it extremely easy for people to choke and die. This is a pretty bad design flaw....

Survival of the fittest man, evolution at its finest. Either you eat decently and chew your food, or you die.

As for the rest of your post, I wanted to post it last night. The biggest paradox about holding a creator responsible for the universe, comes from the theory itself: If everything has to be created, then who created the creator? And who created him / her? Perhaps we indeed have to accept that certain things just are, until proven otherwise. There's no real point in arguing over it simply cause you cannot know. There might be a creator watching over us, as we cannot prove there isn't. However, stating that evolution doesn't exist is a blatant lie. Nature has pointed this out time after time, and still does. Saw some interesting facts about malaria the other day, and how people are slowly becoming immune to it.

(Also, just noticed Xblade mentioned the exact same :) )

So you find having "Faith" in the Christian God a sign of a lack of knowledge, and that your "intellectualism" gives you "Wisdom" to not need faith?

But look at the many times people have "Faith" outside of religion, faith in getting a good education, faith in choosing the right vocation, faith in choosing the right school, the right company to work for, spouse, whether or not to have children, how to save money for retirement.

If intellect and science are so great, why do they fail at making life better by eliminating poverty, homelessness, starvation, why do diseases outsmart the best minds.

If people can have faith outside of religion they can have faith in Christianity. Intellect and science cannot save the world, in fact it will lead to Armageddon, but faith, hope, love, mercy, and compassion, they can save the world.
See bolded words: Actually it IS intellect and science that have made the world a better place, how else would you explain the craftiness of human beings to stop being hunters / gatherers and create tools in order to work the land? These didn't fall from the skies as if given by a creator. And what about the computer you are using now? Isn't that part of science as well? While I certainly won't argue the fact that the world could be a much better place if there would be indeed all the love and compassion that the holy scriptures prescribe, science indeed has made our lives more comfortable.

In essence, I think you can relate this to the Adam and Eve story, where the tree of wisdom is science. The more we know, the more we find out that things are far from perfect. Looking at the last century and how science was used to create weapons of mass destruction, it goes to show the downsides of this increased knowledge.

Anyway, I fail to see how someone without a religion or faith in a god also has no compassion, love and mercy to show towards others. I know you don't mean this personally, but it's exactly that kind of attitude that also flames the hatred towards some believers.


Intellect is not sinful, but depending on intellect alone is sinful. Knowledge is not everything, but faith is the beginning to everything good.
Having morals promoting hope, love, compassion and mercy is the beginning to everything good. Knowledge indeed isn't everything, a passion for life and goodness is. If anything, being convinced that one specific faith is required has only shown to do no good to these morals, as it creates a sense of superiority over one another, while according to these morals you should treat everyone equally. Thus making faiths of this kind contradict itself.

[Boltzmann]

If i knew our creator i wouldn't bother to write all the things i've written so far but instead i would just share my knowledge with you guys.

as for Azathoth: if he were our creator at least i would've now an explanation to idiocy in our planet.

Okay, thanks for biting the bullet and giving a straight, honest answer. I thought you were trying to sneak in christian mythology through the old design argument.

Even though we still disagree, my assessment of you went up a notch ;)

[Spyhop]

If intellect and science are so great, why do they fail at making life better by eliminating poverty, homelessness, starvation,
See bolded words: Actually it IS intellect and science that have made the world a better place, how else would you explain the craftiness of human beings to stop being hunters / gatherers and create tools in order to work the land? These didn't fall from the skies as if given by a creator. And what about the computer you are using now? Isn't that part of science as well? While I certainly won't argue the fact that the world could be a much better place if there would be indeed all the love and compassion that the holy scriptures prescribe, science indeed has made our lives more comfortable.

It should also be mentioned the a very large percentage of the hungry and impoverished are very religious. Maybe if they stopped waiting for help from an imaginary being.......

why do diseases outsmart the best minds.

They don't. If you're talking about things like cancer, it's because there hasn't, yet, been a method of killing cancer without killing it's host. We have recently made a couple of exciting discoveries in terms of a cure though.

If you mean things like the cold or flu viruses that seem to keep ahead of our vaccines, it's because they EVOLVE. lol

[Strike105X]

It should also be mentioned the a very large percentage of the hungry and impoverished are very religious. Maybe if they stopped waiting for help from an imaginary being.......

Your wrong at least for the ones over in eastern europe they are very religious indeed, but maybe its a "defense mechanism" that not all suffering has been for nothing, anyway i said your wrong because many are hard working but they just don't get to have a chance at a life anymore (can't get a job that will let them stabilize).

Beggars though are a different business they are formed mainly from gypsies and fall under three categories:

1. the ones being "trained" for begging (and "training" is such a light word, there have been cases of kids having there limbs amputated to create more of an impression and all the money ends filling the "trainer's" pockets, which are mainly gypsies, which is why i hate a large portion of them, but not all like you know i don't generalize).
2. Gypsies after a quick buck (you'd be shocked at the profit they are making of this...)
3. And last the minority: drinkers who lost everything due to drinking and need money to buy booze.

They don't. If you're talking about things like cancer, it's because there hasn't, yet, been a method of killing cancer without killing it's host. We have recently made a couple of exciting discoveries in terms of a cure though.

Actually cancer is a type of fungus and can be supposedly be treated with surprisingly some kind of baking soda treatment but the pharmaceutical companies made sure to sweep Dr. T. Simoncini under the rug, i mean how profitable is baking soda ?


If you mean things like the cold or flu viruses that seem to keep ahead of our vaccines, it's because they EVOLVE. lol

True and Indeed.

[@ruantec]

Okay, thanks for biting the bullet and giving a straight, honest answer. I thought you were trying to sneak in christian mythology through the old design argument.

Even though we still disagree, my assessment of you went up a notch ;)

Awesome!!!!

well i wasn't trying to convince others to believe what i do but mostly tried to explain my point of views which am aware could be misunderstanded because of the wrong way i express myself sometimes :thumb:

[makotech222]

Actually cancer is a type of fungus and can be supposedly be treated with surprisingly some kind of baking soda treatment but the pharmaceutical companies made sure to sweep Dr. T. Simoncini under the rug, i mean how profitable is baking soda ?




True and Indeed.

I hope to god you are being sarcastic. ME, and agnostic, is hoping to god. Thats how bad that statement is.

[Strike105X]

nn_nMVShU3U

sYT0zfNhbK8

LLXvMeMsmXs

It is up to you for what you want to believe i for one believe Dr. Tullio Simoncini.

http://www.curenaturalicancro.com/

[cottonvibes]

Cancer Candida and Fungus - Dr. Simoncini natural sodiumbicarbonate cancertherapy (http://www.curenaturalicancro.com/)

"Cancer Quack "Dr."Tullio Simoncini claims that all cancers are fungal colonies. It might be worth mentioning upfront that his license to practice medicine has been withdrawn, and in 2006 he was convicted by an Italian judge for wrongful death and swindling."

My Malignant Melanoma: Tullio Simoncini (http://mymalignantmelanoma.blogspot.com/2009/01/tullio-simoncini.html)

[Spyhop]

I thought Strike was joking.

[Strike105X]

Of course there was bound to be an reply/bashing from the pharmaceutical companies :rolleyes:. Like i said you are free to believe what you want but i for one well ... you know you can always thrust an corporation to do something where they can get money from. Garlic (http://quanta-gaia.org/reviews/books/powerOfGarlic.html) is just another example of this...

[Strike105X]

"Cancer Quack "Dr."Tullio Simoncini claims that all cancers are fungal colonies. It might be worth mentioning upfront that his license to practice medicine has been withdrawn, and in 2006 he was convicted by an Italian judge for wrongful death and swindling."

My Malignant Melanoma: Tullio Simoncini (http://mymalignantmelanoma.blogspot.com/2009/01/tullio-simoncini.html)

I looked at the site and i found it interesting even though they say his treatment is dangerous all they talk about is "victims" and they keep saying how dangerous it is without giving an explicit argument as to why, so my believing them is next to 0. (Note they do give some very elusive argument about pressure and minerals but its to vague to be taken into consideration if they had something rock solid to use they'd use it).

Edit: sorry for double posting i thought the posts would merge...

[Spyhop]

Yeah, no, cancer is not a ****ing fungus.

[Strike105X]

Real solid argument there spy :thumb: /sarcasm

[Spyhop]

You should not be humored with a real argument. What you're saying is too goddamn absurd to expend energy discreditting.

[cottonvibes]

Survival of the fittest man, evolution at its finest. Either you eat decently and chew your food, or you die.


yeah, but my point was actually one Neil Tyson made in a Beyond Belief 06 seminar.
Basically he said if we were truly designed, then why are we so imperfect and have so much design flaws; he then gave the example i meantioned of people being able to choke easily due to our bad design.

To add on to that, if we are truly designed then why are other mammals so similar to us?
If were designed then the designer was not creative at all :lol:


As for the rest of your post, I wanted to post it last night. The biggest paradox about holding a creator responsible for the universe, comes from the theory itself: If everything has to be created, then who created the creator? And who created him / her?


indeed.
i mentioned this in a post a few pages ago.


However, stating that evolution doesn't exist is a blatant lie. Nature has pointed this out time after time, and still does. Saw some interesting facts about malaria the other day, and how people are slowly becoming immune to it.


yeh, it just makes me angry of the ignorance some people have.

[Strike105X]

You should not be humored with a real argument. What you're saying is too goddamn absurd to expend energy discreditting.

And you call Paratech closed minded ? I'm always up for debate and i proven not once but multiple times that i'm able to admit when i have been proven wrong or i admit when i made a mistake.

[Spyhop]

And you call Paratech closed minded ?

Paratech is closed minded because he's completely unwilling to consider any alternate or new ideas. But being open minded does not mean to accept any new fact you're presented with. The reason what you're saying is absurd is we're really not confused about what cancer is. We know what it is, and it's not fungus. It's curing it that's taking time. We're well beyond the identification stage.

[Strike105X]

Paratech is closed minded because he's completely unwilling to consider any alternate or new ideas.

The way you are currently acting is similar atm in complete refusal without even considering the issue a little...

But being open minded does not mean to accept any new fact you're presented with.
Indeed i completely agree but...

The reason what you're saying is absurd is we're really not confused about what cancer is. We know what it is, and it's not fungus. It's curing it that's taking time. We're well beyond the identification stage.
Not that absurd actually, the current definition of cancer taken from wikipedia:

Cancer /ˈkænsə(r)/ ( listen) (medical term: malignant neoplasm) is a class of diseases in which a group of cells display uncontrolled growth (division beyond the normal limits), invasion (intrusion on and destruction of adjacent tissues), and sometimes metastasis (spread to other locations in the body via lymph or blood). These three malignant properties of cancers differentiate them from benign tumors, which are self-limited, and do not invade or metastasize. Most cancers form a tumor but some, like leukemia, do not. The branch of medicine concerned with the study, diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of cancer is oncology.

Take note of the bolded yellow part while reading this small story, some years ago i contacted some kind of small disease (most probably when i went to the pool) which affected my big left foot thumb, noticeable at the nail the most, but also a small part of the skin near it to (will concentrate on the nail though), the nail most suddenly became "evolving" rather strangely in a very ugly and abnormal way but it still looked like it was from the normal nail "material", i eventually ended up consulting a medic it proven to be a fungus but there where no signs (from my perspective and my visual confirmations) of a fungus since the due to the "material" still feeling like it was formed completely from a nail. My point for this ? fungus's can cause malformation or may make it look like abnormal growth so the possibility of cancer actually being a fungus isn't that low, though don't think i have absolute faith in that doctor as well, no i still have some doubts, but knowing how corporations handle things does make his case stand out and also the lack of some proper contrary arguments like that fail comment as to why is baking soda so dangerous.

[Spyhop]

K, every doctor in the world and most reasonable people will call your hypothesis retarded. I'm done arguing this because it's stupid. Like I said, it doesn't deserve the effort.

[Strike105X]

Same thing can be said by me...

[@ruantec]

wow this thread is getting big :p i think there was a need of a good Religion/Evolution discussion.

[Paratech]

Paratech is closed minded because he's completely unwilling to consider any alternate or new ideas. But being open minded does not mean to accept any new fact you're presented with. The reason what you're saying is absurd is we're really not confused about what cancer is. We know what it is, and it's not fungus. It's curing it that's taking time. We're well beyond the identification stage.

Paratech is closed minded because he's completely unwilling to consider my beliefs and even though I consider his beliefs hogwash I'm open minded. :evil:

FIFY. :p

[Spyhop]

Paratech is closed minded because he's completely unwilling to consider my beliefs and even though I consider his beliefs hogwash I'm open minded. :evil:

FIFY. :p

The difference between us is that I have considered your beliefs. They didn't stand up to logic or scientific method. I will reconsider your beliefs if anyone finds new evidence to support them, but so far that has not happened, nor do I expect it to.

[Paratech]

In other words as long as I have faith in something beyond science I'm close minded in your opinion, sorry but that isn't changing.

Faith does not equal close minded.

[Spyhop]

In other words as long as I have faith in something beyond science I'm close minded in your opinion, sorry but that isn't changing.

Science is the tool used to understand the physical world around us. Critical thinking is the filter on open mindedness. Since there is no observable evidence to suggest a deity exists, there's no reason to cling to the idea until evidence is found, if ever.

Faith does not equal close minded.

Actually, yes it does. By definition, faith is believing in something for absolutely no reason and ignoring all contradicting evidence. That's not a good thing.

T69TOuqaqXI

[capo_2k]

Nothing like a bowl of QualiaSoup to raise the spirits.

[cottonvibes]

Nothing like a bowl of QualiaSoup to raise the spirits.

i enjoy thunderf00t's videos better :D

spyhop does love that video though, since this is at-least the 3rd time he's posted it in a thread xD

[Spyhop]

spyhop does love that video though, since this is at-least the 3rd time he's posted it in a thread xD

It remains relevant. And it's easier to post the video than to explain what open mindedness actually means.

[Cid Highwind]

Wow, that video only appeared on page 7 oO (okay, 14 for you defaulters)

wow this thread is getting big :p i think there was a need of a good Religion/Evolution discussion.
Well as stated before in this thread, whether or not the thread stays open is entirely up to the people who debate in it. As soon as it turns into a flamefest with personal attacks, it'll get locked. Until then, there's no reason to lock it. Some interesting points have been made, points of which other people can learn as they read them, and consider them for their own perspectives on these themes. Debates at NGEmu have helped me a lot shaping my ideas on religion and deities.

Spyhop, you won't be able to convince Paratech. Drop it man, I know it's a sensitive issue as it offends what you hold dear, but it's a pointless debate that will only get this thread locked.

[Paratech]

Spyhop, you won't be able to convince Paratech. Drop it man, I know it's a sensitive issue as it offends what you hold dear, but it's a pointless debate that will only get this thread locked.

I won't flame him, call him names, etc, but I will point out that I don't buy every Christian or every Atheist holds the same thoughts. Christianity is very diverse, so is Atheism.

I speak about my faith because its important to me, probably as important as science is to you.

[Spyhop]

I won't flame him, call him names, etc, but I will point out that I don't buy every Christian or every Atheist holds the same thoughts. Christianity is very diverse, so is Atheism.

Atheism is the rejection of the belief of a supernatural being. That's it. Not much diversity there.

I speak about my faith because its important to me, probably as important as science is to you.

You present this as an equitable statement when it's not. Faith does not stand even with science. Science is the practice of discovering the world through evidence, trial, and experimentation...and organization of observable phenomena. Faith has no such evidenciary basis. Science is a reasonable tool for understanding the world. Faith is not. Science works to understand that which we do not know. Faith says, "a wizard did it."