1.7.0 and neGcon: Huge, unnatural dead zone in twist, buttons I and II swapped

[Gyruss]

Just tried ePSXe 1.7.0 with WipeOut 2097 and my neGcon through a PC Magic Box USB adapter. It identifies the analog buttons right during pad configuration, but in the game the buttons are swapped.

More concerning however is a huge dead zone in the neGcon's twist, which covers about 60 degrees of the center zone. You can see it in WipeOut 2097's analog configuration, which shows the dead zone quite clearly even when the game's own dead zone setting is set to 0.

The Magic Box maps the neGcon's axes like so:
L: Y axis, 0 at rest, 255 fully pressed
I: Z Rotation, 0 at rest, 255 fully pressed
II: X axis, 0 at rest, 255 fully pressed
Twist: Z axis, 128 at rest, 0 full left, 255 full right

[Squall-Leonhart]

calibrated the control in the windows game controlerl panel?

[Gyruss]

It's calibrated, but Windows has no option for dead zone setting. The neGcon works perfectly when I set dead zone to zero in every other application, but epsxe has no dead zone options that I can find.

[Squall-Leonhart]

ah ok, what software are you using the neGcon with?, there may be third party drivers available that provide dead zone adjustment.

[Gyruss]

epsxe 1.7.0 is what I'm having trouble with. All my other games and stuff work fine. The generic joystick drivers that come with Windows don't have any notion of a dead zone; they leave that up to the application.
I'm positive that this is a bug in epsxe's neGcon support and since this is the forum linked from the official epsxe site I would think that the developers would read these threads. I'll go post about it in the IRC channel too and see if they've heard about it from anyone else.

[galtor]

epsxe 1.7.0 is what I'm having trouble with. All my other games and stuff work fine. The generic joystick drivers that come with Windows don't have any notion of a dead zone; they leave that up to the application.
I'm positive that this is a bug in epsxe's neGcon support and since this is the forum linked from the official epsxe site I would think that the developers would read these threads. I'll go post about it in the IRC channel too and see if they've heard about it from anyone else.

Yes, we read the threads :). We dont have a negcon to play with, only a bunch of documentation, so we are not warned about the "dead zone". We will try to fix the issue in next version, thanks for the report.

[Squall-Leonhart]

you know where we are when you need testing Galtor :)
should include ShadoVV and Gyruss to make sure Mouse and neGcon support are working properly.

Galtor, it might be best to provide Deadzone adjustment sliders, since some users might prefer it to be more sensitive, and others less., if not, a deadzone of 15-20 should suffice.

actually i'll post that in the beta section.

[hushypushy]

Yes, we read the threads :). We dont have a negcon to play with, only a bunch of documentation, so we are not warned about the "dead zone". We will try to fix the issue in next version, thanks for the report.

Someone send this man a NeGcon ASAP!!

[Gyruss]

Yes, we read the threads :). We dont have a negcon to play with, only a bunch of documentation, so we are not warned about the "dead zone". We will try to fix the issue in next version, thanks for the report.

Thanks. Could you also put in an option for whether analog is enabled at startup or not? Some games don't support hotplugging a neGcon and having to press F5 to enable it during game boot may keep them from detecting it. Gran Turismo 2 comes to mind as an example.

[skid]

Yeah, just confirming that the negcon support is a bit bugged.

The twist seems to alternate between 0 and the real analog value of the twist. In GT2, I am getting two values when testing the analog steering (0 and the real value). I believe this is because the emulator is alternating between digital and negcon every frame which confuses the games. In the menus of Ridge Racer Type 4, the buttons swap between (O and X) to (I and II) every frame.

The I and II buttons are swapped as reported above.

Also the I and II buttons do not seem to pass though the value of the directinput analog device to the negcon device properly. I have to half press the brake and accelerator for the car to become idle in GT2. The car revs even if I haven't pressed the accelerator. The car also revs if I fully press the accelerator. The same applies to the brake pedal.

I have set each of the axis to "full" axis, not "negative" or "positive". Changing it to negative or positive makes the car move if I am decelerating. That seems like something for digital directinput devices. Using a combined axis on my Logitech steering wheel didn't fix this problem.

The deadzone seems to be a bit too great (about 30deg either side). The games have their own deadzone programming, so the emulator shouldn't need to add any additional code to cater for the deadzone.

Thanks for adding negcon support. It just needs a couple fixes.

[Squall-Leonhart]

negative and positive are for Analogue controls, digital doesn't have positive or negative, it just has 0, and 1 (off and on)

[Gyruss]

negative and positive are for Analogue controls, digital doesn't have positive or negative, it just has 0, and 1 (off and on)

He's talking about the analog gas and brakes on buttons I and II, which are analog.

[Squall-Leonhart]

No, he isn't.


I have set each of the axis to "full" axis, not "negative" or "positive". Changing it to negative or positive makes the car move if I am decelerating. That seems like something for digital directinput devices. Using a combined axis on my Logitech steering wheel didn't fix this problem.

[Gyruss]

Yeah, just confirming that the negcon support is a bit bugged.

The twist seems to alternate between 0 and the real analog value of the twist. In GT2, I am getting two values when testing the analog steering (0 and the real value). I believe this is because the emulator is alternating between digital and negcon every frame which confuses the games. In the menus of Ridge Racer Type 4, the buttons swap between (O and X) to (I and II) every frame.


OK, I never noticed this goofiness. Stupid question: is there a chance something's holding F5 down?


Also the I and II buttons do not seem to pass though the value of the directinput analog device to the negcon device properly. I have to half press the brake and accelerator for the car to become idle in GT2. The car revs even if I haven't pressed the accelerator. The car also revs if I fully press the accelerator. The same applies to the brake pedal.


Unfortunately this tends to be more a function of the USB adapter than anything. Most of those Radio Shack adapters map I and II to each half of the Y axis. The Magic Box maps one axis to each of them as I described in my earlier post. I've seen other adapters map them to the Y axis such that you had to hold the button half way to get neutral, which seems to be your case.

Recalibrate the joystick device in Control Panel and turn on "show raw values" and post what the numbers are when each button is at rest, half, and fully pressed.


I have set each of the axis to "full" axis, not "negative" or "positive". Changing it to negative or positive makes the car move if I am decelerating. That seems like something for digital directinput devices. Using a combined axis on my Logitech steering wheel didn't fix this problem.


Try a Directinput remapper like PPJoyJoy and play with the different axes to see if you can make it work better. Ideally, those buttons should map to pedal devices, but I've never found a USB adapter that maps them that way.


The deadzone seems to be a bit too great (about 30deg either side). The games have their own deadzone programming, so the emulator shouldn't need to add any additional code to cater for the deadzone.


Actually it is the emulator's job to give us options to deal with our myriad semi-broken analog joystick adapters, and deadzone would be part of that. Look at all the analog options in MAME, they're all there to make goofy controller setups usable.

[Squall-Leonhart]

Do NOT quote mame unless you want to have your emulator thrown at you. :P

[Gyruss]

Yeah, just confirming that the negcon support is a bit bugged.

The twist seems to alternate between 0 and the real analog value of the twist. In GT2, I am getting two values when testing the analog steering (0 and the real value). I believe this is because the emulator is alternating between digital and negcon every frame which confuses the games. In the menus of Ridge Racer Type 4, the buttons swap between (O and X) to (I and II) every frame.


Ignore my "holding F5" question; I can confirm this in GT2. I hadn't noticed it before because I hadn't gone into the analog calibration part of the options, but it happens when you do the "steer to the left, then to the right" part and the tick flickers between full left and the true position. Wipeout must not check for it so often.

In Gran Turismo, the constant jerking back and forth on the steering is also there, but if I press F5 twice during the game it fixes itself.

[skid]

Yeah, I've tried playing around with the full/negative/positive settings. After setting them to "positive", the car accelerates and brakes only when the pedal is half pressed. When it is set to "negative", the car accelerates and brakes at 1/3 and 2/3.

I've got a Logitech Driving Force Pro steering wheel. The behaviour above is when I have set the wheel to independent axis for the accelerator and the brake (Z and RZ respectively). I've also set the wheel to combined axis with no success.

The raw values are 0 for rest to 255 for fully depressed on each axis. The steering is on the X axis and is 0 for fully left, 128 for centre and 255 for fully right.

It's a bit of a shame that I don't have any PSX software that tests the negcon's axis. That'll give us a better idea of what's going on.

[Gyruss]

The raw values are 0 for rest to 255 for fully depressed on each axis. The steering is on the X axis and is 0 for fully left, 128 for centre and 255 for fully right.


That's exactly the same as mine. The only difference I can think of is that your pedals are on Z and ZR and mine are on X and ZR. If I had to guess, I would think the emulator driver is assuming that the axes go from -128 to 127 (signed variable) and when the button is pressed halfway the variable overflows, and only the overflow values are something the game can understand.


It's a bit of a shame that I don't have any PSX software that tests the negcon's axis. That'll give us a better idea of what's going on.

As far as I know, GT and GT2's calibration screens are the best axis displays.

[calb]

That's exactly the same as mine. The only difference I can think of is that your pedals are on Z and ZR and mine are on X and ZR. If I had to guess, I would think the emulator driver is assuming that the axes go from -128 to 127 (signed variable) and when the button is pressed halfway the variable overflows, and only the overflow values are something the game can understand.

As far as I know, GT and GT2's calibration screens are the best axis displays.

I have prepared a beta for testing, you have the link in PM.

Thanks,
Regards,
Carlos.

[Gyruss]

I have prepared a beta for testing, you have the link in PM.


Awesome, that setting is exactly what was needed to deal with the dead zone.
I found a setting of about 100 (out of 10000) was ideal for my case.

The deadzone adjustment should be independent per axis, however. I noticed that when I raised it very high, it was affecting the buttons as well as the twist. The buttons have severe issues of their own, however. I'm doing some experiments; when I get some more info, I'll type it up and post it here.

One question: are the Playstation's internal variables for the neGcon's axes 16 bit variables? I can't be sure, but while watching the numbers here I think I have less analog resolution (due to DirectInput being 8 bit) in the emulator than on the real system.

[skid]

The range for DirectInput is left up to the device (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb174603(VS.85).aspx). The Logitech steering wheel has 16bit resolution.

The negcon (http://www.zophar.net/tech/files/playstation.htm) has 7bit resolution per axis.

[Gyruss]

Okay, here is what I've gathered so far about the problems with the analog buttons. I watched the numbers in GT2's calibration screen and in the Windows calibration screen as I moved the axes. The deadzone was set to 0 and the axis was set to Full for all of them. I mapped different axes to a particular analog button and then set that button to Acceleration. What I should be getting is the two values the same. Here is what I am getting, based on what axis is mapped to the button.

Z and ZR axis
These axes increase smoothly from 0 to 255 in DirectShow as I press the button, and the values the game show look like the variable has 128 added to it for some reason and it overflows. Note the snap from 255 to 0 right when the button is half-pressed.

Button mapped to Z or ZR axis
Button press: 0% 25% 49% 50% 75% 100%
DirectInput: 0 64 127 128 192 255
Game: 128 192 255 0 64 127

X and Y axis
Even though I calibrated them in Windows and it shows the values smoothly increasing from 0 to 127 in the calibration box, as soon as I close calibration and go back to the regular joystick properties the little axis indicator shows the axis doesn't move from 0 until it gets to at least 128, then it snaps up to 128. This looks like some kind of DirectInput initialization problem, because it's showing up in Windows's own DirectInput display as long as epsxe is running. It only affects the X and Y axes. Once the button is more than halfway down, it behaves just like the Z and ZR axes.

Button mapped to X or Y axis
Button press: 0% 25% 49% 50% 75% 100%
DirectInput: 0 0 0 128 192 255
Game: 128 128 128 0 64 127

Like I mentioned before, the buttons indicated in the mapping screen are wrong: I and II are swapped from what is being passed to the game.

Finally, the constant flickering every frame of the neGcon twist values is still there. I haven't particularly noticed what Skid said about the II and X button displays flickering back and forth, but something isn't right there either. Pressing F5 twice to reselect the neGcon fixed the problem once or twice, but that doesn't consistently fix it.

[calb]

Okay, here is what I've gathered so far about the problems with the analog buttons. I watched the numbers in GT2's calibration screen and in the Windows calibration screen as I moved the axes. The deadzone was set to 0 and the axis was set to Full for all of them. I mapped different axes to a particular analog button and then set that button to Acceleration. What I should be getting is the two values the same. Here is what I am getting, based on what axis is mapped to the button.

Z and ZR axis
These axes increase smoothly from 0 to 255 in DirectShow as I press the button, and the values the game show look like the variable has 128 added to it for some reason and it overflows. Note the snap from 255 to 0 right when the button is half-pressed.

Button mapped to Z or ZR axis
Button press: 0% 25% 49% 50% 75% 100%
DirectInput: 0 64 127 128 192 255
Game: 128 192 255 0 64 127

X and Y axis
Even though I calibrated them in Windows and it shows the values smoothly increasing from 0 to 127 in the calibration box, as soon as I close calibration and go back to the regular joystick properties the little axis indicator shows the axis doesn't move from 0 until it gets to at least 128, then it snaps up to 128. This looks like some kind of DirectInput initialization problem, because it's showing up in Windows's own DirectInput display as long as epsxe is running. It only affects the X and Y axes. Once the button is more than halfway down, it behaves just like the Z and ZR axes.

Button mapped to X or Y axis
Button press: 0% 25% 49% 50% 75% 100%
DirectInput: 0 0 0 128 192 255
Game: 128 128 128 0 64 127

Like I mentioned before, the buttons indicated in the mapping screen are wrong: I and II are swapped from what is being passed to the game.

Finally, the constant flickering every frame of the neGcon twist values is still there. I haven't particularly noticed what Skid said about the II and X button displays flickering back and forth, but something isn't right there either. Pressing F5 twice to reselect the neGcon fixed the problem once or twice, but that doesn't consistently fix it.

Ok, you have another beta for testing in a PM.

Regards,
Carlos.

[Gyruss]

Thanks Carlos.

The button swap is fixed, thanks.

The wraparound problem is fixed. As long as I set deadzone small enough, buttons mapped to the Z and ZR axes work pretty well. However I'm noticing that if I set the deadzone higher and watch the calibration screen, the value stops increasing right about 128 even though I'm pressing the button more, and once it crosses some threshold it starts increasing again up to the max value when the button is fully pressed. It is tied to the value of the dead zone, so it looks like the dead zone is being applied at 128 instead of 0.

The X and Y axes are still doing their thing where they only start registering once the button is more than halfway down. I noticed, however, that if I change the axis from Full to Positive, then buttons mapped to the Y axis seem to work perfectly, but buttons mapped to the X axis seem to stop working altogether. I didn't dig into this very much, though. The deadzone issue affects these axes the same as the Z and ZR axes.

Finally, the flickering of the twist control between full left and center is still there in GT and GT2. I noticed however that WipeOut 2097 works perfectly with the twist while both GT games pull to the left because the axis is on the left half the time.

[Manoloco]

Sorry to go off topic, but thanks for the efforts being done on NeGcon support, i love wipeout XL with my negcon, i changed my tube tv and bought an LCD one, big mistake

now it might be possible that i play it on my 21" CRT monitor.

Believe me, for fast games like XL, LCDs are totaly out of their league with their lag.

theres also another advantage: button remapping on the console doesnt let you assign the dpad to anything but steering and pitch, i always wanted to assign weapons and discard to those buttons on WO3/WO3SE, people who have played them will understand why.

once again, thanks, and some info: there was a pad plugin for psxeven emu, called padgnneco made by shirouto yokota, it allowed almost perfect support and control of the negcon, and he´s a member of the forums, i once sent a mail to contact him if epsxe developers were interested in adding negcon support, maybe he could add his experiences?, he was willing to do that, but that was some years ago.

[pantra]

*bump*

any progress on fixed negcon-input? can't wait to get my hands on the next version of epsxe and would also happily participate in testing negcon-input on ridge racer, ridge racer revolution, gran turismo, wipeout and wipeout xl/2097! I guess there are other negcon-worshippers out there after all! :D

[Gyruss]

Well, I haven't seen anything since this thread kind of petered out. I get the impression that the devs with the time and knowledge to fix the problems don't have analog controllers to test with. They don't need real neGcons; the point of the driver they're writing is to translate generic analog input into something the playstation would understand as a neGcon.
I never could understand why epsxe never used controller plugins. This could have been a done deal with padgnneco 4 years ago.

[pantra]

seconded, I'd at least appreciate the option to use other input-plugins although I feel the integrated input-handling of epsxe now comes really close to covering all mayor psx-controllers while working out of the box - if only the negCon-issues would be fixed. Until then it'll have to be ssspsx + padgnecco for wipeout xl, ridge racer revolution, etc. which is sad for it seems there's only these tiny negCon-issues left that prevent epsxe from delivering the same flawless experience with less setup.

[Squall-Leonhart]

The team has become busy again, Calb is making the final preparations on his wedding, and is also busy with work,

The earliest they may get back to ePSXe is October.

[isamu]

hello. Has there been any progress on proper neGcon support in epsxe? I am trying to use my steering wheel in Rage Racer, but when I go to the calibration screen within the game, it only shows a picture of a digital controller, not the neGcon.

[isamu]

Nevermind, I found out that you have to press F5 to switch to neGcon mode. My bad ;)

[whypowt]

Yep, just like the PS1 Madcatz dual analoge gamepad used to do.

[Re-posted this as a new thread, as the thread i replied to was over 1yr old.]

Don't know if anyone but the devs & an update can help here.

In epsxe 1.7.0 twist steering is perfect but buttons I, II & Left trigger can only be assigned to an axis, which causes problems under Wipeout 2097 (similar to previous thread entry listed below) plus limits game to 3 buttons only which could be solved by allowing assigning of digital buttons to axises - like the madcatz did (suggestion for 1.7.1?) -only really want analoge steering anyway.


Yeah, I've tried playing around with the full/negative/positive settings. After setting them to "positive", the car accelerates and brakes only when the pedal is half pressed. When it is set to "negative", the car accelerates and brakes at 1/3 and 2/3.

++++++++edit: the quote below is now obselete-just use motioninjoy.com/download for PS3 PC install.
--------------------------------------------

PS3 INSTALL

by the way, if you want the authentic psx experience, search for "libusb-win32-filter-bin-0.1.12.1" to install a usb driver for the PS3 dualpad to work in windows [& epsxe dualshock].
--------------------------------------------
If you want motion-sense [not for the faint-hearted, allow a few hours/days for controller/game configuration] get "Glovepie 030" which includes instructions [could use in PCSX/harakuri plugin, but has issues under PCSX/gnneco plugin that I can work around by modifying pgnneco.ini as below]

-don't modify pgnneco2.ini, & backup pgnneco.ini before changing min/max values, these are default DirectX settings as seen in DXtweak [another great utility]

[nejiri R]
max=65535
min=32768

[nejiri L]
max=0
min=32767


I also found after this mod i had to change the deadzone in wipeout 2097 calibration screen [even though it looks right] each time i play to get it working properly ingame.

PCSX plugins
D3D renderer 1.11 [PAL frame limit=25, 30 for ntsc?] SAPUcdr 1.0, eternal spu 1.4

-cheers.

[isamu]

Thanks for the heads up pimpin.

[hoverdonkey]

huge dead zone in the neGcon's twist, which covers about 60 degrees of the center zone.

Hi

I had this deadzone problem using a Soyo "Kiky X-Series" PSX to USB convertor. I just installed a Mayflash "Super Joy Box 3 Pro" and the neGcon twist now works flawlessly. Only one problem now - the L shoulder button does not work at all (but this I can live with). I think the key might be that your convertor needs to specify wheel support (I don't think the Kiky has this).

I know this a bit late in the day for this thread, but thought I would post here so the next guy who is pulling their hair out might find it!

negCon rocks.

Cheers


PS Something else to know - only the "Pro" versions of the "Super Joy" convertors have pressure button functionality.

[StealthRay0]

Bumping from the dead!

Long story short, bought a NegCon and love it with my usb converter. Runs great on all my PC games (Dirt 3, multiple Need For Speeds), as well as Gran Turismo 2 on ePSXe 1.8.

Sadly, I still get the 'flicker' issue on Gran Turismo 1, where the cars pull to the LEFT (wheels flicker all over), and the gas/brake wavers very fast (the car does not get enough gas to even engage the clutch and move forward!).

Anyone know of settings/plugins/emulators that can run Gran Turismo 1 (American or European) with the NegCon controller? I was unable to get PCSXR to even see the thing. I am writing a speedrun for quickest path to end-credits, and I wish to use this controller for it. Thank you all!

[whypowt]

thrustmaster run'n'drive has a thumbwheel on it, closest u may ever get is that...:thumb:

[isamu]

there was a pad plugin for psxeven emu, called padgnneco made by shirouto yokota, it allowed almost perfect support and control of the negcon, and he´s a member of the forums, i once sent a mail to contact him if epsxe developers were interested in adding negcon support, maybe he could add his experiences?, he was willing to do that, but that was some years ago.

Do you know of a way of contacting shirouto yokota?